What’s your main reason for being a theist or an atheist?

Bob the Unbeliever · Aug 28, 2019

adrian009 said:
I had the impression from your previous post you grew up going to church but rejected Christianity when you became an adult.

I rejected nothing. I woke the heck up, and realized that Santa Claus was just a story.

The same sort of story as 100% of christianity's legends.

But I did search for god for most of my life-- god never bothered a response. Ever.

I just deluded myself into thinking god did. What an idiot I was...

I really don't care to be lied to. Even if those lying did not realize it at the time.

Trailblazer · Aug 28, 2019

Goodman John said:
But then we're right back to my point that if one decides the effort is worth the potential reward, ANY choice is better than NO choice. And, until someone provides proof positive that God A or God B is THE ONE TRUE GOD, the 'any choice' is the best we can hope for.

In my opinion, a choice to believe in God is better than choosing not to believe in God.
Religion, on the other hand, is another story. It might be better to withhold belief in a religion until you know that it is a true religion.

According to my beliefs, there are many religions, but there is only One God. That God is the true God, all other gods people imagine are imaginary gods.

The Baha'i Faith is the latest religion in a series of true religions revealed by the one true God. Some of the true religions that preceded the Baha'i Faith are Hinduism, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Christianity, and Islam.

“Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths. Take heed that ye do not vacillate in your determination to embrace the truth of this Cause—a Cause through which the potentialities of the might of God have been revealed, and His sovereignty established. With faces beaming with joy, hasten ye unto Him. This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 136

However, the Baha'i Faith will not be the last religion, there will be more religions in the future. I think most people are confused about what religion is. They think religion is a man-made construct, but all true religions were based upon a Revelation from God through a Messenger of God. The following passage briefly explains the nature of religion, according to my beliefs.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

CG Didymus · Aug 28, 2019

Trailblazer said:
I have no problem with Christians who believe those things, but whether they actually happened or not is another story.
I don't think that God walked in the garden and spoke with Adam but God might have spoken to Moses from a burning bush, and God probably spoke to Jesus from heaven and said this is my beloved son.
Imo.

It's surprising that you have no problem with Christians believing those things. Most Baha'is say that Christians have misinterpreted those things... that they are symbolic and not literal. But, those things are great proof that God exists. We have an ancestor that spoke with God in the Garden of Eden. We have Moses that heard his voice and saw his backside and had, in his possession, stone tablets that were written by God. All the Hebrews saw a pillar of smoke guiding them in the desert. They saw God part the sea. They had proof. God sent prophets to people and told them that he was going to destroy them and God did. All the Jewish patriarchs had encounters with their God. Elijah tested the false prophets by asking them to have their god send down fire from heaven. They couldn't. But Elijah called on the God of Israel, and he did send fire.

The problem is... are those stories real? Or just stories? If they are just made up myth they are worse than having no proof of God and his awesome power. because they pretend that there is a God and that he did all those great things. And lots of people questions those stories. I wouldn't doubt that a lot of Baha'is question those stories. And, if not true, then some of the biggest lies or fabrications of religious stories is about Jesus. Should people believe wise men followed a moving star? And that star then hovered over where Jesus was born? Did he bring two people back to life. Did he calm a storm? Did God bring him back to life?

If any of that is true, then that shows that God is pretty awesome. If it's not true... then what? It's a bunch of fantasy stories? So what is the Baha'i interpretation of those stories? All I've ever heard is that they are not literal, but symbolic. Which ain't much good in proving how great and powerful and real God is.

CG Didymus · Aug 28, 2019

adrian009 said:
The number of people who believe in the God of Abraham is more than 55% and growing.

To say the "God of Abraham" is a little misleading. I know Baha'is make Abraham a manifestation, and need him to connect to Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab, and Baha'u'llah. But there are places where it says the "God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." And, it also says the "God of Israel". To me, that's almost like only taking the things from the Bible to support your beliefs and to disregard the other things. In context, the Jewish Scriptures are about them and their connection to their God.

Trailblazer · Aug 28, 2019

Bob the Unbeliever said:
Trailblazer said: No Bob, that is NOT what God will do..

So you say-- and that directly contradicts what your silly book says. Which is correct?

My book does not say that.

Bob the Unbeliever said:
Trailblazer said: God does not need anything.

Demonstrated false--your book, again, says otherwise.

My book does not say that God needs anything. It says God does not need anything.

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.”Gleanings, p. 136

Bob the Unbeliever said:
Trailblazer said: I already told you, because He loves people.

Bob the Unbeliever said:
Odd form of "love" ... more like the sort of "love" that a wife-beating husband has towards his "wife"... most folk would not call that "love", however...

God is not beating anyone.

Bob the Unbeliever said:
Trailblazer said: God cares, but God is not going to provide any evidence other than what He has provided..

Bob the Unbeliever said:
So he does not care, actually. Deliberately and malicously withholding anything remotely convincing? Is the opposite of caring. It's malicious indifference. Actually.

I am sorry it is not convincing to you but that is not God's fault.

Bob the Unbeliever said:
Trailblazer said: No, God wants you to know by looking at the Messenger..

Bob the Unbeliever said:
What messenger? Why is this ... ahem... "messenger" raised up over all other humans?

Yes, God raised Him up.

Trailblazer · Aug 28, 2019

Bob the Unbeliever said:
"clear message"? Care to name this ... ahem... "clear message" you speak of, but fail to demonstrate?

It is the message of Baha'u'llah.

Trailblazer · Aug 28, 2019

CG Didymus said:
It's surprising that you have no problem with Christians believing those things. Most Baha'is say that Christians have misinterpreted those things... that they are symbolic and not literal. But, those things are great proof that God exists. We have an ancestor that spoke with God in the Garden of Eden. We have Moses that heard his voice and saw his backside and had, in his possession, stone tablets that were written by God. All the Hebrews saw a pillar of smoke guiding them in the desert. They saw God part the sea. They had proof. God sent prophets to people and told them that he was going to destroy them and God did. All the Jewish patriarchs had encounters with their God. Elijah tested the false prophets by asking them to have their god send down fire from heaven. They couldn't. But Elijah called on the God of Israel, and he did send fire.

The problem is... are those stories real? Or just stories? If they are just made up myth they are worse than having no proof of God and his awesome power. because they pretend that there is a God and that he did all those great things. And lots of people questions those stories. I wouldn't doubt that a lot of Baha'is question those stories. And, if not true, then some of the biggest lies or fabrications of religious stories is about Jesus. Should people believe wise men followed a moving star? And that star then hovered over where Jesus was born? Did he bring two people back to life. Did he calm a storm? Did God bring him back to life?

If any of that is true, then that shows that God is pretty awesome. If it's not true... then what? It's a bunch of fantasy stories? So what is the Baha'i interpretation of those stories? All I've ever heard is that they are not literal, but symbolic. Which ain't much good in proving how great and powerful and real God is.

I do not view these stories the way you do, as proof of God. Miracles are not the greatest proof of God. They might be proof to some people who witnessed them, if they even happened, but most Bible stories were not witnessed, so we have no way to verify them. Why do people need something supernatural to know someone is of God? The Person of Jesus and Baha'u'llah and their Missions were the greatest proof of their Prophethood.

You probably already know what Abdu'l-Baha said about miracles, but just in case, here is part of that chapter 22: MIRACLES

“But in the day of the Manifestation the people with insight see that all the conditions of the Manifestation are miracles, for They are superior to all others, and this alone is an absolute miracle. Recollect that Christ, solitary and alone, without a helper or protector, without armies and legions, and under the greatest oppression, uplifted the standard of God before all the people of the world, and withstood them, and finally conquered all, although outwardly He was crucified. Now this is a veritable miracle which can never be denied. There is no need of any other proof of the truth of Christ.

The outward miracles have no importance for the people of Reality. If a blind man receives sight, for example, he will finally again become sightless, for he will die and be deprived of all his senses and powers. Therefore, causing the blind man to see is comparatively of little importance, for this faculty of sight will at last disappear. If the body of a dead person be resuscitated, of what use is it since the body will die again? But it is important to give perception and eternal life—that is, the spiritual and divine life. For this physical life is not immortal, and its existence is equivalent to nonexistence. So it is that Christ said to one of His disciples: “Let the dead bury their dead;” for “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” 1

Observe: those who in appearance were physically alive, Christ considered dead; for life is the eternal life, and existence is the real existence. Wherever in the Holy Books they speak of raising the dead, the meaning is that the dead were blessed by eternal life; where it is said that the blind received sight, the signification is that he obtained the true perception; where it is said a deaf man received hearing, the meaning is that he acquired spiritual and heavenly hearing. This is ascertained from the text of the Gospel where Christ said: “These are like those of whom Isaiah said, They have eyes and see not, they have ears and hear not; and I healed them.” 2

The meaning is not that the Manifestations are unable to perform miracles, for They have all power. But for Them inner sight, spiritual healing and eternal life are the valuable and important things. Consequently, whenever it is recorded in the Holy Books that such a one was blind and recovered his sight, the meaning is that he was inwardly blind, and that he obtained spiritual vision, or that he was ignorant and became wise, or that he was negligent and became heedful, or that he was worldly and became heavenly.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 101-102

CG Didymus · Aug 28, 2019

adrian009 said:
Certain writings are readily recognised as sacred by large sections of the world’s population whether the Hebrew Bible, New Testament or Quran. Once again, God gives us free will to either recognise Him or turn away. If the books were instantly recognisable to everyone, free will would not exist.

This God and his messengers have not done a good job at communicating what is the truth about God. Like those that have recognized the Hebrew Bible as being "God's Word". What they believe about God is way different than what the people that have recognized the New Testament or Quran. But, did God write any of them? Other than the Quran, did the manifestation write any of them? Even the first five books of the Bible, did Moses really write them?

I think atheists are well justified in believing there is no God. And if there is, he's not all loving and all good. After all, if he created everything, then he created diseases and natural disasters. I forget what the Baha'is explanation for those things are. So, if you could, can you give some Baha'i quotes that explains why God created them. Thanks.

atanu · Aug 28, 2019

columbus said:
Yes.
...Delusion and hearsay are the mainstay of religion, overall.

But since there is nothing like an objective standard for "understanding", in a religious context, I go back to the "Nobody knows" answer. ...

I will request you to examine whether above two statements could be broad generalisations and also contradicting each other to some extent.

atanu · Aug 29, 2019

NewGuyOnTheBlock said:
.. I finally decided in October of 2012 that I held no belief whatsoever in the non-material or supernatural. ...

That seems a certainty to me.

What does it mean to live?

What does it mean to die?

......,

For our theist neighbors, the answers to all of these questions are neatly packaged int he wrappings of religious doctrine with a belief in a personal God at the heart. Take all that way, then, at least for a time, the only certainty is uncertainty. The more ingrained our neighbors are indoctrinated into their irrational beliefs, the more the statement is true.

Have you answered for yourself as to what it means to be living? If not, then how you decided that you held no belief in the non material? I am asking you this since I have noted your 'the only certainty is uncertainty'. That skepticism is praiseworthy. But it is not clear to me how you are so certain that you hold no belief in the non material?

I first realized that God wasn't going to fix things for me, so I had to do what I could myself.

.........

........ I finally removed the remaining remnants of spiritualism and superstitions from my life. .

What you mean by saying "I have to do what I could myself"? You hold a certainty "I held no belief whatsoever in the non-material". With that belief as the world view, what exactly is the "I" that will do whatever it could to help itself? What is this materially constituted "I" that has decided to be the 'doer' of deeds for itself?

I believe that true skepticism entails questions against all kinds of 'certainty' and not only against theistic certainty. The questions I raised to you are often inconvenient and I often invite great anger from atheists and materialists. I hope we can probe deep and discuss with cool mind. I was an atheist-materialist for 2/3 rd of my life.

NewGuyOnTheBlock · Aug 29, 2019

You're going to make me work, aren't you? LoL. Thank you for taking an interest.

atanu said:
Have you answered for yourself as to what it means to be living? If not, then how you decided that you held no belief in the non material?

In a sense, yes. We live because of biological and chemical processes. There need not be a teleological reason for this. What it means to be "living" is highly subjective. We each determine for ourselves what it means to "live" and what, if any, meaning we will give our lives.

atanu said:
I am asking you this since I have noted your 'the only certainty is uncertainty'. That skepticism is praiseworthy. But it is not clear to me how you are so certain that you hold no belief in the non material?

What I mean by that is that, during a worldview shift, there is often a lot of confusion and second guessing, questioning oneself. My non-belief in the non-material is based on failures of that belief to achieve stated results and lack of good evidence substantiating the belief in the non-material. In this regard, I am more humble than it may appear, as I can not disprove a negative; thus, "there is no god" or "there is no non-material" is belief-based (not to be confused with faith-based).

atanu said:
What you mean by saying "I have to do what I could myself"?

I was struggling with significant mental health issues. I had to work through my issues myself, with help and guidance from my fellow man. Gods, spirits, deities, etc. did not help. I did all the work with the help and guidance of others.

atanu said:
You hold a certainty "I held no belief whatsoever in the non-material". With that belief as the world view, what exactly is the "I" that will do whatever it could to help itself?

Well ... "me". What is "me"? My physical self, including the complexities and mysteries of our neurology.

atanu said:
I believe that true skepticism entails questions against all kinds of 'certainty' and not only against theistic certainty.

Agreed.

Dawnofhope · Aug 29, 2019

Bob the Unbeliever said:
Except that they don't. Believe in the same god, that is.

If they did? They would all be the same religion, and they wouldn't try so very much to kill each other.....

That is ample proof they do not, in fact, believe the same.

It is also proof that if there is a god? It isn't one of those ... so much chaos. A Real God™ would never suffer such chaos as all that...

So it's highly disingenuous to lump them together.

The Quran makes reference to 50 different Biblical characters.

A Muslim can not reject Moses or Jesus and follow Muhammad.

Muhammad taught His followers to be like the Jews and Christians and follow the One true God.

The Quran refers to 99 attributes or names of God that would appear remarkably consistent with both Jewish and Christian perspectives of God.

Names of God in Islam - Wikipedia

9-10ths_Penguin · Aug 29, 2019

Trailblazer said:
In my opinion, this is not absurd. There is a clear message from God for people to respond to. We have many religions all telling us the same essential things about the same God.

Most people just cannot see that.

Do you realize that in the exact same post, you said that this message is both clear and can't be seen by many people?

You're contradicting yourself.

Dawnofhope · Aug 29, 2019

Bob the Unbeliever said:
Logical Fallacy. And you have failed to show god(s) are real.

You cannot cite "chosen manifestations" until you prove god(s) are real.

So, until then? Your claim of "chosen manifestations" is a false one.

See above. You have failed to show god(s) are even possible.

But here you go, making claims about the attributes and behaviors of this unproven, un-defined thing.

And I reject your claim of "revealed writings".

Based entirely on the fact that all of them are so very flawed, so very imperfect, so very full of immoral EVIL? They cannot be from an actual god who is GOOD.

The fact that they even exist, and make such HUBRIS claims?

Proves gods either don't care, or don't exist. A GOOD god would not have permitted them to exist in the state they do-- so poorly written as to be laughable.

That is your choice to accept or reject the Manifestations of God and the Teachings they bring. I understand from their Teachings they are the safest and most secure way to know God. However another way is through contemplation of the natural world. Most, though not all Theists follow what Baha’is consider to be Manifestations of God. As well as the Abrahamic Faiths they do include the Buddha and Krishna so the study of Eastern religions and philosophies are a more amenable path for some. Many in the West have had profoundly negative experiences with religion. Sometimes taking a completely novel path will be much more productive. Other times putting the search on hold for a while. Beyond that I can not provide you with the proof you are looking for, only suggest a path that may open the door should you desire. If you believe there are no proofs for God that’s where you are on your journey. It’s entirely a matter for your conscience, is it not?

Dawnofhope · Aug 29, 2019

Bob the Unbeliever said:
My comment was meant to cause a bit of reflection on your part, and I'm sorry if you thought I was heated-- I wasn't. I've been insulted by Experts, and frankly?

You are way too nice, and polite too.

You may wish to take care how you express your arguments-- to say as you did, that I could not possibly have known god? Well...

A bit of rephrasing could have avoided all that ugliness.

The thing is: you cannot possibly know the experiences of someone else, so in the future, you may wish to not project so harshly.

It is true that I have no idea of what you have experienced in your life. The journey for each of us is so different. No one should judge another. It took me five years of searching before I had an experience of God that turned me into a committed theist. For some it will be a single moment l, for others a lifetime.

ratiocinator · Aug 29, 2019

adrian009 said:
That is your choice to accept or reject the Manifestations of God and the Teachings they bring.

I see no manifestations of any god(s) anywhere to either accept or reject. All I see is a lot of superstitions in the world, some of which are called "religions". They tell totally contradictory stories about different supposed gods. Even within each religion, there are often completely different concepts of 'god'.

TagliatelliMonster · Aug 29, 2019

adrian009 said:
The figure is an estimate of the number of people who clearly believe in the God of Abraham. Both Christians and Muslims do. I am comparing numbers of atheists (you identify as being an atheist do you not?) with numbers of those who believe in the God of Abraham (as I do).

Why are these numbers important at all?

The extent to which those who believe in atheism

Didn't you read my posts earlier in this thread, where I explained to you how this is absurd wording in context of what atheism is?

Atheism is not something that one "believes in".
THEISM is what requires "belief in". Atheism is what you default to when you do not believe in theism.

There's nothing in atheism to believe in. There are no claims, no doctrines, no ideologies... there's nothing there. It's just a label for people who don't believe in theistic religions, that's it.

Consider the word "assymmetrical" as a description of a shape. It just means that whatever the shape is, it's not a symmetrical one. By just the word "assymmetrical", you don't know anything about said shape except what it is not: symmetrical.

So really, it's a label that does not refer to properties that ARE present. It rather refers to properties that are NOT present.

Same with atheism.
It doesn't refer to things that ARE being believed.
It rather refers to things that are NOT being believed.

You really need to stop looking at "atheists" as if they are some united front with common beliefs. They aren't.

fight with each other, or those who believe in the God of Abraham fight with each other is not directly relevant.

It kind of is, but not in the somewhat misleading way your wording it....

Here's how it is relevant:
I'm sure atheists fight eachother. However, what they'll be fighting over will not be related to their atheism.
Various denominations within a single religion fight eachother, as a direct result of religious differences.

That's how it's relevant - especially if you would like to pretend that all christian denominations can be put in the same camp in terms of religious beliefs.

I don't see how I'm being 'disingenuous' in grouping Abrahamic religions together for the purposes of considering total numbers who believe in the God of Abraham.

How about, because some of these groups disagree so much concerning this supposed "same god", that they even kill eachother over it?

I believe in both Jesus and Muhammad as Manifestations of God and both the Christian Bible and the Quran as being based on a Revelations from God. That is simply a fact about Baha'is.

And christians and muslims consider that herecy / blasphemy / ...

TagliatelliMonster · Aug 29, 2019

adrian009 said:
I would argue that both science and religion have been enormously successful with their sphere of influence.

Yeah, so were the Nazi's.

Not to go all Godwin on you, but your phrasing is really just inviting it.
Influence is one thing. Accurate beliefs are another.

They are not mutually exclusive

Except when they are.

and they each reinforce the other

Sorry, no... nothing in science, nothing at all, reinforce any belief in anything supernatural. Be it gods, angels, prophets, fairies,....

TagliatelliMonster · Aug 29, 2019

adrian009 said:
The Quran makes reference to 50 different Biblical characters.

A Muslim can not reject Moses or Jesus and follow Muhammad.

Muhammad taught His followers to be like the Jews and Christians and follow the One true God.

The Quran refers to 99 attributes or names of God that would appear remarkably consistent with both Jewish and Christian perspectives of God.

Names of God in Islam - Wikipedia

Exactly as I would expect if religions were the inventions of men. They'ld take existing ideas and add on to it.
Mormonism did the exact same thing. You can trace Jawhe back in the same way to polytheistic times.

Trailblazer · Aug 29, 2019

9-10ths_Penguin said:
Do you realize that in the exact same post, you said that this message is both clear and can't be seen by many people?

You're contradicting yourself.

A message can be clear yet not seen by most people, so I was not contradicting myself.
In other words, not everybody can see the clear message, and in fact not many see it.
That reminds me of what Jesus said...

Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

The reasons why not many find the narrow gate are numerous,and I will explain them later if you want to know.

What’s your main reason for being a theist or an atheist?

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