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Should I Read The Bible?

Goodman John

Active Member
My approach is to consider the bigger picture. Taking the Bible as a whole and the one story it tells from Genesis to Revelation, we become aware of a contest between the Creator and a lying, manipulative "wannabe" god. As an all powerful Creator, he could have exercised his power to wipe out this usurper and those he managed to mislead, but this contender never challenged God's power....he challenged his Sovereignty....his right to set reasonable limits for his creation. Is God the best one to tell us how to live? Or are we better off deciding these things for ourselves?

People who want to tell God how to conduct his business, have no idea how brilliant his approach to this rebellion has been. He is allowing us all to be caught in the act of being ourselves.

In order to utilise the situation to his benefit (and ours) he has allowed the "wannabe" god to do his best, using all manner of deception to win people over to his side. It gives him his short term glory and an empty victory over those who have allowed themselves to be deceived. According to scripture, the "god of this world" has the ability to "blind the minds" of those who are not disposed to accept God on his terms. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) These are willing to be deceived because self-deception is satan's most successful ploy.

My reading of the Bible (with an eye on Manichaean and Gnostic ideas) takes it in a completely different direction. I see the Old Testament as largely the tale of a vengeful, malicious god whom I can't see as being anything other than Satan himself masquerading as God. I see the creation story as being wildly different from the tale told in Genesis, with the world- our physical realm- as being created by Satan to escape God, for at time at least, after being defeated in a war with God in the spiritual realm. The we get into the story of the creation of Man to be a servant of Satan, but that's a weighty tale in its own right.

Past the initial Creation period, we get into the Hebrew period and I largely look at that as mere history- but that the Jews are worshiping the wrong god. They're worshiping Satan in the guise of God- this doesn't make them bad or evil in themselves in any way, just mistaken as to who is really who.

It's not until the New Testament period and the coming of the Christ through Jesus that the REAL God is revealed, and the message of the Christ is to wake Man up to his spiritual nature. It's clear to me that the 'God' of the OT and the God of the NT are two completely different entities, and the Christ was our warning signal that all was not well in the neighborhood.


"Blinding the mind" is his trademark because deception is not easily detected, especially when a professional con-artist is manipulating people's perceptions of themselves, the world around them and how much misplaced trust people have in the system that he created.

God said he would lift the lid on the devil's world as we neared "the end" of it. Many people are now waking up to just how easily they have been led to believe his deceptions and away from the truth. The devil is a mimic who likes to create counterfeit religions that convince some people that this is the way to serve God, but it only works on those who want to believe the lie.

As long as Satan can keep Man in the dark about his spiritual nature, or keep him dazzled with worldly things, he stays in power in the physical realm. As Man 'wakes up' and purifies and strengthens his spirit to the point it can escape and return to the spiritual realm, Satan's grasp gets weaker. When the number of spirits (our souls) returned to the spiritual realm surpasses what's left down here (not just physically, but also what's left in the spiritual bus station, a sort of 'Well of Souls'- a nod to all you Indiana Jones fans :D - or as the Jews call it, 'the Guf' where spirits await a body), Satan's whole deal collapses and ceases to exist; Satan gets returned to the spiritual realm to await God's pleasure (or beatdown, whatever works), and the 'unsaved' spirits are either destroyed or otherwise utterly cut off from God. So, as I've said elsewhere, it's probably a good idea to 'get right' as soon as possible, because if we screw it up our spirit will have to find a new body when we die and do this all over again- and we do NOT want to miss that last bus to Paradise.

~~~

I think we're largely on the same page and finding the same end game, but jut reading it in a different language of sorts. As I've said elsewhere, I think there's plenty of different way to get close to God and my faith is just one of many. I know others may think I'm completely mad and deserve to be locked up, but sometimes I think that might not be so bad after all :D I also completely acknowledge that I may be wrong, but I'm doing the best with what limited skills and knowledge I have at hand. In the end, we're all responsible for our own soul anyway, so any mistakes or errors I make are mine and mine alone.
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
My reading of the Bible (with an eye on Manichaean and Gnostic ideas) takes it in a completely different direction. I see the Old Testament as largely the tale of a vengeful, malicious god whom I can't see as being anything other than Satan himself masquerading as God. I see the creation story as being wildly different from the tale told in Genesis, with the world- our physical realm- as being created by Satan to escape God, for at time at least, after being defeated in a war with God in the spiritual realm. The we get into the story of the creation of Man to be a servant of Satan, but that's a weighty tale in its own right.

Past the initial Creation period, we get into the Hebrew period and I largely look at that as mere history- but that the Jews are worshiping the wrong god. They're worshiping Satan in the guise of God- this doesn't make them bad or evil in themselves in any way, just mistaken as to who is really who.

It's not until the New Testament period and the coming of the Christ through Jesus that the REAL God is revealed, and the message of the Christ is to wake Man up to his spiritual nature. It's clear to me that the 'God' of the OT and the God of the NT are two completely different entities, and the Christ was our warning signal that all was not well in the neighborhood.




As long as Satan can keep Man in the dark about his spiritual nature, or keep him dazzled with worldly things, he stays in power in the physical realm. As Man 'wakes up' and purifies and strengthens his spirit to the point it can escape and return to the spiritual realm, Satan's grasp gets weaker. When the number of spirits (our souls) returned to the spiritual realm surpasses what's left down here (not just physically, but also what's left in the spiritual bus station, a sort of 'Well of Souls'- a nod to all you Indiana Jones fans :D - or as the Jews call it, 'the Guf' where spirits await a body), Satan's whole deal collapses and ceases to exist; Satan gets returned to the spiritual realm to await God's pleasure (or beatdown, whatever works), and the 'unsaved' spirits are either destroyed or otherwise utterly cut off from God. So, as I've said elsewhere, it's probably a good idea to 'get right' as soon as possible, because if we screw it up our spirit will have to find a new body when we die and do this all over again- and we do NOT want to miss that last bus to Paradise.

~~~

I think we're largely on the same page and finding the same end game, but jut reading it in a different language of sorts. As I've said elsewhere, I think there's plenty of different way to get close to God and my faith is just one of many. I know others may think I'm completely mad and deserve to be locked up, but sometimes I think that might not be so bad after all :D I also completely acknowledge that I may be wrong, but I'm doing the best with what limited skills and knowledge I have at hand. In the end, we're all responsible for our own soul anyway, so any mistakes or errors I make are mine and mine alone.
Just please keep in mind, in the Hebrew Scriptures (OT), God was protecting His people from others who wanted to kill them! Plus, they (Canaanites, etc.) had vile practices, from which Jehovah tried to protect them. (Ex.: Leviticus 18:21) But some Israelites even adopted that sick practice! (Jeremiah 19:5; Psalms 106:37-38)


So, keep that in mind.

And Job 1:6-12 & Job 2 reveal God having two conversations w/ Satan, so He couldn't have been the Devil.

It's real good that you have an open mind...keep it.

Take care, my cousin.
 
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Goodman John

Active Member
Read the Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth by Thomas Jefferson (yes THAT Thomas Jefferson) or, as I sometimes call it to sound all Biblical, the Gospel of Thomas of Monticello :D Amazon

Jefferson combined all the Biblical Gospels into one chronological narrative, leaving out all the 'magic' parts of the story- miracles and such. He doesn't go into Jesus' birth any deeper than to say he was born of Mary and he doesn't go into his death any deeper than to say he died on the cross. What he focuses on instead is what Jesus actually taught and the lessons he passed on to his disciples. Those lessons he left us are what is essential- everything else is just 'window dressing'.

HOWEVER, if you're looking to see how the Christian religion itself came about by all means read it all, OT and NT. Just read it with a grain of salt and realize it's not all meant to be taken literally. The fun part is figuring out what is literal and what isn't :D
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I am not a Jew or a Christian. In my time on RF I have seen this book torn to pieces and have often admired the logic of the arguments thrown against it. Of course when I say book I have become aware of the numerous versions, translations and alterations. Other issues such as John, Constantine, Gnosticism add to the stew.

Despite the above, of late I have become very curious. Is there any good reason for a non-believer to read it? What could I expect in terms of my growth and development? Are there any good companion/guide books for beginners?

Yes read the Bible with a critical eye 'in the context of history and culture.'
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I am not a Jew or a Christian. In my time on RF I have seen this book torn to pieces and have often admired the logic of the arguments thrown against it. Of course when I say book I have become aware of the numerous versions, translations and alterations. Other issues such as John, Constantine, Gnosticism add to the stew.

Despite the above, of late I have become very curious. Is there any good reason for a non-believer to read it? What could I expect in terms of my growth and development? Are there any good companion/guide books for beginners?
Yes, there is a very good reason for non-believers to read the Bible and become familiar with it. Basically it is THE book of Western culture. It has been the source of moral and ethical norms. It permeates our literature, our political documents, our legal courts, even our pop culture of film and song. To try and become literate about our culture without being literate in the Bible is impossible.

If you decide to become Biblically literate, know that there is a difference between the Jewish bibles and Christian bibles. They translate from different sources -- Christian translators often us a very poor Greek translation called the Septuagint, rather than translating entirely from the Hebrew manuscripts. It is because the errors in the Greek translation fit better with Christian theology.

There is a second difference -- the organization of the books. It seems like a little thing, but it does reflect a basic difference in theology. Christians put the prophets last, because they want a Bible that looks forward to the coming of the messiah -- a lead in for their New Testament. Jewish Bibles end on the historical text of 2 chronicles, where Israel is triumphantly returning to the Land and rebuilding the Temple-- making the Tanakh a story of ultimate success, not failure in need of a solution.
 

Secret Chief

nirvana is samsara
I am not a Jew or a Christian. In my time on RF I have seen this book torn to pieces and have often admired the logic of the arguments thrown against it. Of course when I say book I have become aware of the numerous versions, translations and alterations. Other issues such as John, Constantine, Gnosticism add to the stew.

Despite the above, of late I have become very curious. Is there any good reason for a non-believer to read it? What could I expect in terms of my growth and development? Are there any good companion/guide books for beginners?
If I was very curious, I'd read it. Did you?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I am not a Jew or a Christian. In my time on RF I have seen this book torn to pieces and have often admired the logic of the arguments thrown against it. Of course when I say book I have become aware of the numerous versions, translations and alterations. Other issues such as John, Constantine, Gnosticism add to the stew.

Despite the above, of late I have become very curious. Is there any good reason for a non-believer to read it? What could I expect in terms of my growth and development? Are there any good companion/guide books for beginners?
HOW you read makes all the difference....
for example

Adam and Eve did not fail the test
They PASSED

Moses climbed the mount to meet his Maker
he had NO intention of return
he went there.....to die

the SONS of God gathered to present themselves....book of Job
NOT one son
not THE Son
MANY sons
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Yes, there is a very good reason for non-believers to read the Bible and become familiar with it. Basically it is THE book of Western culture. It has been the source of moral and ethical norms. It permeates our literature, our political documents, our legal courts, even our pop culture of film and song. To try and become literate about our culture without being literate in the Bible is impossible.

I believe you arevery greatly overestimating the importance of the Bible in Western civilization. I believe the roots of the Old Testament in the Sumerian, Babylonian, and Canaanite literature and culture. The Greek literature over the years had a greater impact than the Old nor New Testament, and not have the negative impact of the tribal cultures of the Bible.

Though yes it is important to read the Bible in the contezt of the culture at the time they were written, and our history.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I believe you are very greatly overestimating the importance of the Bible in Western civilization. I believe the roots of the Old Testament in the Sumerian, Babylonian, and Canaanite literature and culture. The Greek literature over the years had a greater impact than the Old nor New Testament, and not have the negative impact of the tribal cultures of the Bible.

Though yes it is important to read the Bible in the contezt [sic] of the culture at the time they were written, and our history.
I know you feel this way. I've received many posts from you to this extent. I one the other hand believe that the Sumerian contribution is very, very small. Basically, there is an earlier version of the creation story, and an earlier version of the flood story, and that's where it ends. Sumer, Canaan, and Babylon were all polytheistic cultures. Israel came to monotheism on its own. (The influence of Greek culture on Christianity is another topic.) At any rate, you and I have been through this AT LENGTH in previous posts, so I see no reason to revisit it. We shall have to agree to disagree agreeably.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I know you feel this way. I've received many posts from you to this extent. I one the other hand believe that the Sumerian contribution is very, very small. Basically, there is an earlier version of the creation story, and an earlier version of the flood story, and that's where it ends. Sumer, Canaan, and Babylon were all polytheistic cultures. Israel came to monotheism on its own. (The influence of Greek culture on Christianity is another topic.) At any rate, you and I have been through this AT LENGTH in previous posts, so I see no reason to revisit it. We shall have to agree to disagree agreeably.

My concern in the above assumptions aconcerning the known history in archaeology of the history of the writings Sumeria, Babylon, Canaan, and the much much later Hebrew writings of the origins of the Tanakh.

Banylon was not necessarily polytheistic In fact Zorastrianism is not polytheistic like other cultures like Sumerians and Canaanites.. Judaism was originally a Canaanite pastorial tribe of the Judah Hills. The Hebrewwritten language is a late desendent of the Canaanite, with again distinct liguistic roots of the Tankh text like the Psalms from Canaanite Ugarite texts.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
My concern in the above assumptions aconcerning the known history in archaeology of the history of the writings Sumeria, Babylon, Canaan, and the much much later Hebrew writings of the origins of the Tanakh.

Banylon was not necessarily polytheistic In fact Zorastrianism is not polytheistic like other cultures like Sumerians and Canaanites.. Judaism was originally a Canaanite pastorial tribe of the Judah Hills. The Hebrewwritten language is a late desendent of the Canaanite, with again distinct liguistic roots of the Tankh text like the Psalms from Canaanite Ugarite texts.
Zoroastrianism was primarily dualistci (and some would argue polytheistic. It does have some elements of monotheism, but simply is not full blown. Because the universe is self creating, is actually PANtheistic rather than monotheistic. It is therefore a lot more similar to Brahmanism (perhaps even sharing its origins) than Judaism.

Yes, the Israelites borrowed the written language alphabet from the Canaanites. But not its customs. Indeed a great many of Judaism's laws have more to do with separation from pagan rites than any other single reason.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Zoroastrianism was primarily dualistci (and some would argue polytheistic. It does have some elements of monotheism, but simply is not full blown. Because the universe is self creating, is actually PANtheistic rather than monotheistic. It is therefore a lot more similar to Brahmanism (perhaps even sharing its origins) than Judaism.

Your going beyond a biased interpretation of Zorastrianism to distance Judaism.. There is a lot of polytheism similar to Canaanite and Ugarite Gods including the names.

Yes, the Israelites borrowed the written language alphabet from the Canaanites. But not its customs.

They did more than borrow it is the origin of Hebrew.

Actually the archaeology indicates that they found statuetes of a female goddes in the homes of the Hebrews, and other cultural attributes of the Canaanites and Ugarates. .

Indeed a great many of Judaism's laws have more to do with separation from pagan rites than any other single reason.

Based on Genesis and the Pentateuch, Judaism clearly had polytheistic roots as described in the Pentateuch., and monotheism came later.

References to follow in next post. . .
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Quartz Hill School of Theology

3. From the Literature of Ugarit to the Literature of the Bible.


The style of writing discovered at Ugarit is known as alphabetic cuneiform. This is a unique blending of an alphabetic script (like Hebrew) and cuneiform (like Akkadian); thus it is a unique blending of two styles of writing. Most likely it came into being as cuneiform was passing from the scene and alphabetic scripts were making their rise. Ugaritic is thus a bridge from one to the other and very important in itself for the development of both.

One of the most, if perhaps not the most, important aspect of Ugaritic studies is the assistance it gives in correctly translating difficult Hebrew words and passages in the Old Testament. As a language develops the meaning of words changes or their meaning is lost altogether. This is also true of the Biblical text. But after the discovery of the Ugaritic texts we gained new information concerning the meaning of archaic words in the Hebrew text.

One example of this is found in Proverbs 26:23. In the Hebrew text כֶּ֣סֶף סִ֭יגִים "silver lips" is divided just as it is here. This has caused commentators quite a bit of confusion over the centuries, for what does "silver lips" mean? The discovery of the Ugaritic texts has helped us to understand that the word was divided incorrectly by the Hebrew scribe (who was as unfamiliar as we are with what the words were supposed to mean). Instead of the two words above, the Ugaritic texts lead us to divide the two words as כספסיגים which means "like silver". This makes eminently more sense in context than the word mistakenly divided by the Hebrew scribe who was unfamiliar with the second word; so he divided into two words which he did know even though it made no sense.

Another example occurs in Ps 89:20. Here the word עָזַר is usually translated "help" but the Ugaritic word gzr means "young man" and if Psalm 89:20 is translated this way it is clearly more meaningful.

Besides single words being illuminated by the Ugaritic texts, entire ideas or complexes of ideas have parallels in the literature. For example, in Proverbs 9:1-18 wisdom and folly are personified as women. This means that when the Hebrew wisdom teacher instructed his students on these matters, he was drawing on material that was commonly known in the Canaanite environment (for Ugarit was Canaanite). In point of fact, KTU 1,7 VI 2-45 is nearly identical to Proverbs 9:1ff. (The abbreviation KTU stands for Keilalphabetische Texte aus Ugarit , the standard collection of this material. The numbers are what we might call the chapter and verse). KTU 1.114:2-4 says:



hklh. sh. lqs. ilm. tlhmn
ilm w tstn. tstnyn d sb
trt. d. skr. y .db .yrh

Eat, o Gods, and drink,
drink wine till you are sated,

Which is very similar to Proverbs 9:5;


Come, eat of my food and drink wine that I have mixed .

Ugaritic poetry is very similar to Biblical poetry and is therefore very useful in interpreting difficult poetic texts. In fact, Ugaritic literature (besides lists and the like) is composed completely in poetic metre. Biblical poetry follows Ugaritc poetry in form and function. There is parallelism, qinah metre, bi and tri colas, and all of the poetic tools found in the Bible are found at Ugarit. In short the Ugaritic materials have a great deal to contribute to our understanding of the Biblical materials; especially since they predate any of the Biblical texts.

More to follow . . .
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Actually the archaeology indicates that they found statuetes of a female goddes in the homes of the Hebrews, and other cultural attributes of the Canaanites and Ugarates. .
Don't confuse Israel slipping back into idolatry as being part of Judaism. We already know there were times of idolatry--the prophets record this, so it's no secret. However, it is a violation of the Law.
 

Shia Islam

Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.
Premium Member
I am not a Jew or a Christian. In my time on RF I have seen this book torn to pieces and have often admired the logic of the arguments thrown against it. Of course when I say book I have become aware of the numerous versions, translations and alterations. Other issues such as John, Constantine, Gnosticism add to the stew.

Despite the above, of late I have become very curious. Is there any good reason for a non-believer to read it? What could I expect in terms of my growth and development? Are there any good companion/guide books for beginners?
As a Muslim, we believe that the bible was originated from God, however it was later on distorted. But this does not mean that all of it is distorted. I have personally bought the bible and downloaded it in audio version where I have listened to it. I also used to listen to Christian clerics.

In Shia Islam, we are encouraged to take wisdom, no matter from where.
Once you recognize the truth, it just can't mix up with falsehood.
Our imams explained that the truth has its own light!
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
And it was an odd sequel at that. It was like the first part is A Game of Thrones and then the second part is The Matrix and somehow they are supposed to be connected to each other. I just don't get it.
Till there is money and power in it, they don't care what kind of sequel they are creating. After the first sequel, there have been many others; like a Bond story or Harry Potter.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Don't confuse Israel slipping back into idolatry as being part of Judaism.

The archaeology demonstrates that Hebrews evolved from polytheism to monotheism,

We already know there were times of idolatry--the prophets record this, so it's no secret. However, it is a violation of the Law.

The archaeology is in conflict with your claims. You are also assuming that the Pentatruch represents a literal history before ~1000 BCE the ealiest known possible Hebrew texts.
 
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Bree

Active Member
I am not a Jew or a Christian. In my time on RF I have seen this book torn to pieces and have often admired the logic of the arguments thrown against it. Of course when I say book I have become aware of the numerous versions, translations and alterations. Other issues such as John, Constantine, Gnosticism add to the stew.

Despite the above, of late I have become very curious. Is there any good reason for a non-believer to read it? What could I expect in terms of my growth and development? Are there any good companion/guide books for beginners?

there are many good reasons to read the bible.

2Timothy 3:16: "All Scripture is inspired of God+ and beneficial for teaching,+ for reproving, for setting things straight,* for disciplining in righteousness,+ 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

The bible gives us Gods view on matters. It records events that happened in the lives of ordinary people and shows us how God dealt with different people.
If you never read the bible book of Ruth, you would never know that God shows favor to those who demonstrate the quality of loyalty.
If you never read about the lowly widow of Zeraphath, a Sidonian woman who worshipped pagan gods, you would never know that God does not favor one race over another or that he takes notice of those who do not worship him.
And if you never read the bible, you would never know how he lovingly protected the prostitute Rahab, and saved her and her family when he brought down the walls of the city of Jericho...why would he save a pagan sinner? Because she expressed faith in his ability to protect and fight for his people Israel.

We learn so much about what he values in us as individuals. The bible is an amazing way to get to know God. What does he appreciate in you and the way you live or the way you think and feel or the way you act. By reading the bible, you will learn a lot about yourself and about what you are doing in your life that either pleases God or perhaps displeases him. That knowledge is what the above scripture says is
'beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight for disciplining in righteousness"

Please read the bible. **mod edit**
 
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pearl

Well-Known Member
Despite the above, of late I have become very curious. Is there any good reason for a non-believer to read it? What could I expect in terms of my growth and development? Are there any good companion/guide books for beginners?

The Bible is not a book. It's a library. The Bible is a collection of 73 books (Protestant Bibles consider 7 books not inspired) written over the course of many centuries. The books include royal history, prophecy, poetry, challenging letters to struggling new faith communities, and believers' accounts of the preaching and passion of Jesus. Knowing the genre of the book you are reading will help you understand the literary tools the author is using and the meaning the author is trying to convey.


Know what the Bible is – and what it is not. The Bible is the story of God's relationship with the people he has called to himself. It is not intended to be read as history text, a science book, or a political manifesto. In the Bible, God teaches us the truths that we need for the sake of our salvation. A study Bible includes commentary concerning differing translations and manuscripts.
 

Hermit Philosopher

Selflessly here for you
I am not a Jew or a Christian. In my time on RF I have seen this book torn to pieces and have often admired the logic of the arguments thrown against it. Of course when I say book I have become aware of the numerous versions, translations and alterations. Other issues such as John, Constantine, Gnosticism add to the stew.

Despite the above, of late I have become very curious. Is there any good reason for a non-believer to read it? What could I expect in terms of my growth and development? Are there any good companion/guide books for beginners?


Dear rocala

I would start with the Gospel in NT. But, as reading of scripture requires a spiritual mindset; if you are an Atheist, I’d dearly recommend reading below book first and then moving onto the Gospel in NT.

The Gospel in Brief by Leo Tolstoy, Dustin Condren | Waterstones


I find the Gospel speaks even to Atheists in that, by giving four different, but equally accurate takes on Christ, it illustrates that in worldliness, truth depends on perspective.

(In the realm of spirit however, truth is said to be One ...but that is a more complex issue and perhaps not where one ought to start.)

Wishing you much curiosity, excitement and lovely eureka moments in your studies.

Humbly
Hermit
 
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