• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why did the Jews reject their Messiah when he DID come?

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
No. Please stop the ' . . . in other words,' nonsense, and cite me specifically.
Neither the Jewish suffering is just that, Jewish suffering under the heel and oppression of Christianity.

So the wandering Jew (including my own family who were driven out of two countries)
is just a coincidence of history. Can't remember who but one European king, centuries
ago, said he believed in the bible simply because of the continued presence of the Jew.
It's strange because most of the biblical nations are Gone. We still argue over who the
Philistines were, whether Egyptians were African or European, who were the Moabites,
Amalakites and such.
And that these Jews came back to rebuild their ancient nation, resurrect their ancient
language and even to creating an empire in 1967.

Watch: the bible says (Ezekiel) that the Jews will return "a second time" to their
land (this, during Babylon captivity) And it says, "all of them."
How can that be? More Jews are outside Israel than in.
But watch rising antisemitism, now even in America and Australia - big percentage
jumps year by year. One day maybe ALL the Jews will be back in Israel.

No coincidence.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Quite true.

I'm just telling you that the context of these verses is that Redeemer is describing God, and not the messiah; King is describing an earthly human king and not God (hence no Trinity). Thus, Christian theology is built upon sand.

So God pays the price for our sins?
God "shall stand upon the earth in the latter days"?
God shall be despised even by his own brothers and sisters?
God shall be "cut off" by his enemies?
God shall be meek and ride upon a donkey?
God is the "lamb slain" and His blood is shed upon the lintel and altar?

Not.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
So the wandering Jew (including my own family who were driven out of two countries)
is just a coincidence of history. Can't remember who but one European king, centuries
ago, said he believed in the bible simply because of the continued presence of the Jew.
It's strange because most of the biblical nations are Gone. We still argue over who the
Philistines were, whether Egyptians were African or European, who were the Moabites,
Amalakites and such.
And that these Jews came back to rebuild their ancient nation, resurrect their ancient
language and even to creating an empire in 1967.

Watch: the bible says (Ezekiel) that the Jews will return "a second time" to their
land (this, during Babylon captivity) And it says, "all of them."
How can that be? More Jews are outside Israel than in.
But watch rising antisemitism, now even in America and Australia - big percentage
jumps year by year. One day maybe ALL the Jews will be back in Israel.

No coincidence.

Coincidence is not the issue of simply the facts of history.

Many Jews actually acknowledge the role of OT prophecy in their persecution, ethnic cleansing and the loose of their home lame and restoration of the homeland of Israel, but they do not equate this to Christian claims in prophecy.
 
Last edited:

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet. Psalm 22:16

Keep in mind that for Jews, translations are not the word of God. It is the Hebrew text (and not the Septuagint) that is canon. This is why we teach our children to read Hebrew, so that they are hopefully not dependent upon inferior translations with its interpretations.

What do you do with the Greek bits of the bible?

This is Zechariah 12
The Messiah as King
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They
will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him
as one mourns for an only child, and
grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son."


Some questions:
what does "pierced" mean in this context?
why are the Jewish people mourning?
how did these people "pierce" the Messiah?
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Coincidence is not the issue of simply the facts of history.

Many Jews actually acknowledge the role of OT prophecy in their persecution, ethnic cleansing and the loose of their home lame and restoration of the homeland of Israel, but they do not equate this to Christian claims in prophecy.

They accept some prophecy, and not others.

This is the thing.
The "Christian" (as in mainstream churches) actively filter out the parts of the Messiah
they don't like. Example - they portray Jesus as blessing the children, and ignore Jesus
saying the children will be destroyed. They build temples to the glory of God and ignore
Jesus saying God doesn't dwell in temples. Etc..
And the Christian (or better still, the Gentile) has his day like the Jew had his day. The
sign Jesus gave for that was when Jerusalem shall be back in Jewish hands. Also, the
bible speaks of the fall of the Christian churches.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Except that ancient Hebrew still needs to be translated because so many words are conjectural as to what they mean today. Many of the birds that are considered treif, for example, cannot be identified today.

And since we don't have any original manuscripts, we simply do not know with any certainty which words and narratives are entirely on the mark today.

Also, I assume you've been involved with Torah study, and with that you would well know that interpretations can vary-- sometimes quite widely. Ya know: two Jews = three opinions on just about anything and everything.
Don't you think that the study of Hebrew would include teaching in these ancient words and the fact that these species are not known today? We aren't stupid.

So you think scribes have been unfaithful in their transmission? We have copies and partial copies of books among the Dead Sea Scrolls that show what incredible care has been taken for accurate copying. But even were your point correct, it is the Hebrew version that is the manuscript that is the source. Everything else, including the Septuagint, is merely an inferior translation.

And we are not talking about interpretations. We are talking about the words of the Torah. There is no disagreement on how the Hebrew Torah reads.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
So God pays the price for our sins?
Where in the Tanakh does it say that God or anyone else will do this?

God "shall stand upon the earth in the latter days"?
Figuratively, anthropomorphically, yes.

God shall be despised even by his own brothers and sisters?
God shall be "cut off" by his enemies?
These verses apply to men that are not the messiah. Not God.

God shall be meek and ride upon a donkey?
.
This verse applies to the Messiah, not God.

God is the "lamb slain" and His blood is shed upon the lintel and altar?
This verse is not even in the Tanakh. It is in YOUR book of Revelation, which has no authority for me.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
This verse is not even in the Tanakh. It is in YOUR book of Revelation, which has no authority for me.

Re lamb slain. The lamb of Exodus, the perfect male, brought into the household
for three days (and thus loved) and slain for a sin covering.
The ram caught in the thicket. God's offering instead of Isaac. God provided the
sacrifice, once and for all in Christ.
 
Last edited:

sooda

Veteran Member
So the wandering Jew (including my own family who were driven out of two countries)
is just a coincidence of history. Can't remember who but one European king, centuries
ago, said he believed in the bible simply because of the continued presence of the Jew.
It's strange because most of the biblical nations are Gone. We still argue over who the
Philistines were, whether Egyptians were African or European, who were the Moabites,
Amalakites and such.
And that these Jews came back to rebuild their ancient nation, resurrect their ancient
language and even to creating an empire in 1967.

Watch: the bible says (Ezekiel) that the Jews will return "a second time" to their
land (this, during Babylon captivity) And it says, "all of them."
How can that be? More Jews are outside Israel than in.
But watch rising antisemitism, now even in America and Australia - big percentage
jumps year by year. One day maybe ALL the Jews will be back in Israel.

No coincidence.

Cyrus Scofield was hired by Zionists to change Protestantism in the US.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Isaiah is talking about Israel not Jesus.

So the Gentiles are healed (made whole, pure) by the suffering
of the Jews?
The Romans killed about two million Jews. Were the Romans
pure before God for doing this?
And the same for the Germans in WWII? Are the Germans now
forgiven of their sins because the Jews died for them.

I would have thought that Isaiah 53 is speaking of a man, not a
nation.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
What do you do with the Greek bits of the bible?

This is Zechariah 12
The Messiah as King
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They
will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him
as one mourns for an only child, and
grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son."


Some questions:
what does "pierced" mean in this context?
why are the Jewish people mourning?
how did these people "pierce" the Messiah?
There is no part of the Tanakh that is in Greek. Christians will use the Septuagint, which is a translation. We do not.

They will look to me BECAUSE of the one who was thrust through...

The verse above refers to a King of Israel, which is used as a backdrop to predict what will happen during the battle of Gog and Magog.

In II Chronicles 35:20-27 we read about the death of King Josiah, who was one of the greatest Kings ever. When Egypt went to war against Judah, unlike most Kings who would have removed themselves from battle, Josiah disguised himself as a common soldier and fought alongside his men. He was pierced by an arrow and died, and so beloved was he that aaallll of Judah mourned him. It is simply an assumption in Judaism that when one mourns the death of a righteous man, one will turn back to Torah.

The passage in Jeremiah 12 cannot be read without verse 9, which talks about even the weakest Jews being as strong and fervent as the House of David.

The text of verse 10 describes a tragedy that will happen during the war of Gog and Magog. Someone beloved will be killed in that battle, and all of Israel will mourn. Per verse nine, it will bring Israel back to the Torah, even the weakest Jews. This death of a beloved righteous man is the source of the repentance of the Jews for the Messianic age.

None of this could possibly refer to the incident of the piercing of Jesus on the cross. For one thing, Jesus didn't die during the war of Gog and Magog. Second, it was not the Jews who looked upon the death, but the Roman Guard -- Gentiles. Third, Jesus' death was NOT mourned by all of Judah. And finally, Jesus' death did not result in Jews everywhere returning to the Torah, a condition set by verse 9 in Zechariah. That's four very solid reasons.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Re lamb slain. The lamb of Exodus, the perfect male, brought into the household
for three days (and thus loved) and slain for a sin covering.
The ram caught in the thicket. God's offering instead of Isaac. God provided the
sacrifice, once and for all in Christ.
Sacrifices in the Tanakh stand on their own. There is no verse in the Tanakh referring to the Messiah as a lamb to be slain.

Rams are adult male sheep, not baby lambs.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Re pays the price for our sins.
Just looked up one verse, Isaiah 53:5 "... and with his stripes we are healed."
Isaiah 53 is about Israel, not the Messiah. Throughout the book of Isaiah, the "servant" is identified as Israel. Again, this is another example of Christians taking verses and passages that are not Messianic and making them into prophecies.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
So the Gentiles are healed (made whole, pure) by the suffering
of the Jews?
The Romans killed about two million Jews. Were the Romans
pure before God for doing this?
And the same for the Germans in WWII? Are the Germans now
forgiven of their sins because the Jews died for them.

I would have thought that Isaiah 53 is speaking of a man, not a
nation.
Read all of Isaiah. There were never 2 million Jews in Palestine.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
They accept some prophecy, and not others.

No, they differ in the interpretation of prophecies preferring the interpretation referring to the traditional return of the warrior king as the Messiah to justify their own agenda as Christians do to justify their agenda. I do not acknowledge that either in any absolute belief, and consider each in their own cultural and religious context. Personally I prefer a universal continuum involving the spiritual evolution of humanity.

This is the thing.
The "Christian" (as in mainstream churches) actively filter out the parts of the Messiah
they don't like. Example - they portray Jesus as blessing the children, and ignore Jesus
saying the children will be destroyed. They build temples to the glory of God and ignore
Jesus saying God doesn't dwell in temples. Etc..

This may or may not be true as far as individual interpretations of prophecies including yours, which are fairly standard through most of the churches with individual preferences including yours. Yes, your subjective anecdotal interpretations are yours among the many, many variable interpretations withing Christianity..


. . . And the Christian (or better still, the Gentile) has his day like the Jew had his day. The
sign Jesus gave for that was when Jerusalem shall be back in Jewish hands. Also, the
bible speaks of the fall of the Christian churches.

This represents a subjective interpretation of ancient scripture, and not what the scripture actually states.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
What do you do with the Greek bits of the bible?

This is Zechariah 12
The Messiah as King
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They
will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him
as one mourns for an only child, and
grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son."


Some questions:
what does "pierced" mean in this context?
why are the Jewish people mourning?
how did these people "pierce" the Messiah?

From: Zechariah 12:10
  1. B. B. The Jewish Perspective
From the Jewish perspective, two general Jewish interpretations of the passage that contains Zechariah 12:10 are plausible. One view has it as an historic Biblical event from the prophet’s own era, while the other considers it a prophecy of an event that will take place at some time near the commencement of the messianic era.



  1. 1. 1. Historic Event
The predominant perspective on Zechariah 12:10 among the Jewish commentators is that it describes the mourning over those Jews who were slain while defending the Kingdom of Judah and Jerusalem. Those who fell in the battle were the ones described as having been thrust through with the swords and spears of soldiers from the attacking nations. In other words, this verse describes a historical event from the Biblical times around which this was written. Even S. R. Driver, the noted Christian commentator, is at variance with many of his colleagues since he views Zechariah 12:10 as follows:

“The context points plainly to some historical event in the prophet’s own time, for which the people would eventually feel that sorrow here described.”

Driver apparently recognized that the passage describes an historical event from Zechariah’s era.



  1. 2. 2. Messianic Prophecy
The other perspective on this passage, which originates in the Talmud, actually shares with the Christian view the fact that it is a messianic prophecy, except that, according to the traditional Jewish concept of the Messiah, this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled.



Since there is an ambiguity in the Hebrew text in terms of whether the subject (i.e., the “victim”) here is an individual or a group – the particular pronouns used here are applied in both ways in the Hebrew Bible – there are two ways to interpret this passage within this messianic perspective. Both interpretations are consistent with the Hebrew text as well as with Jewish tradition.



The “singular pronoun scenario” depicts a great hero who will fall in the battle of the nations against Jerusalem that was described earlier in the chapter (Zech 12:3). Because this person will be one of towering stature among the Jewish people, the mourning for him will be great and widespread; the entire nation and all of Jerusalem are described as being in a state of great mourning (Zech 12:12). But, this crying and mourning will lead people to repent and return to observance of Torah, as had happened in previous times:



Numbers 14:39-40 – (39) And Moses spoke these words to all the Children of Israel; and the people mourned greatly. (40) And they arose early in the morning, and they ascended to the top of the mountain, saying; “Behold, we are here, and we will go up to the place of which the L-rd has spoken, for we have sinned.”



This particular scenario fits well with the Rabbinic “two Messiahs” paradigm. According to this Talmudic tradition, the first “Messiah”, (mashi’ah ben Yosef), Messiah son of Joseph, will be a hero out of either the Tribe of Ephraim or the Tribe of Menasheh (recall that Joseph’s sons were Ephraim and Menasheh). He will fight, and be killed in the Great War, an event that will be the catalyst for all of Israel to turn to G-d and repent. After that, (mashi’ah ben David), Messiah son of David, the Davidic Messiah, will appear and usher in the messianic era with its promised redemption of Israel. The intensity of the sadness is quantified in Zechariah 12:11 by comparing the mourning in Jerusalem with the mourning in the valley of Megiddo. This reference points to the death of King Josiah, the last of the great and righteous kings of Judah (2 Kgs 23:25), who was killed in a battle with Pharaoh Necho, King of Egypt:



2 Kings 23:29-30 – (29) In his [Josiah’s] days, Pharaoh Necho, King of Egypt, went up against the King of Assyria by the Euphrates River; and King Josiah went against him, and he [Pharaoh Necho] killed him [Josiah] at Megiddo, when he saw him. (30) And his servants transported him dead from Megiddo, and [they] brought him to Jerusalem, and [they] buried him in his grave; and the people of the land took Jehoahaz the son of Josiah, and anointed him, and made him king in his father’s stead.


2 Chronicles 35:22-24 – (22) Nevertheless, Josiah did not turn his face from him [Pharao Necho], but disguised himself in order to fight with him, and he did not pay heed to the words of Necho [which came] from the mouth of G-d; and he came to fight in the valley of Megiddo. (23) And the archers shot at King Josiah; and the king said to his servants, “Take me away, for I am badly wounded.” (24) And his servants took him from that chariot, and put him in the second chariot that he had, and they brought him to Jerusalem, and he died, and he was buried among the graves of his forefathers; and all of Judah and Jerusalem were mourning for Josiah.


Following Josiah’s death, the mourning throughout the Kingdom of Judah and in Jerusalem was immense. In the Hebrew Bible, this is alluded to by Jeremiah, and recorded in the historical books:


Lamentations 4:20 – The breath of our nostrils, the anointed of the L-rd, was captured in their pits, of whom we said, “In his shadow we shall live among the nations.”

2 Chronicles 35:24-25 – (24) And his servants took him from that chariot, and put him in the second chariot that he had, and they brought him to Jerusalem, and he died, and he was buried among the graves of his forefathers; and all of Judah and Jerusalem were mourning for Josiah. (25) And Jeremiah lamented Josiah; and all the singing men and the singing women had spoken of Josiah in their lamentations to this day, and made them a statute upon Israel; and behold, they are written in the lamentations.

According to the Jewish Sages, these descriptions also characterize the magnitude of the grief that will prevail among Jews over the falling of (mashi’ah ben Yosef), Messiah son of Joseph.

In the “plural pronoun scenario”, the singular pronoun is applied to a group of Jewish people, a usage that is common in the Hebrew Bible (e.g., Hosea 11:1 has the Jewish people described via the same singular pronoun, him). In Zechariah 12:10, the new spirit that G-d will pour unto the Jewish people will motivate them to look toward Him concerning the Jewish martyrs who fell in the battle over Jerusalem before His divine intervention on their behalf. Here, as was the case in the previous scenario, the intensity of the mourning over those who will fall in the Great War of the future is still reflected in the historical references that appear in Zechariah 12:11.

In summary, the Jewish perspective on Zechariah 12:10 is that it may be viewed as either an historical event that occurred in the prophet’s time or, alternatively, as a messianic prophecy that is yet to be fulfilled. Neither of these interpretations agrees with, nor can accommodate, the Christian view that it is a messianic prophecy that was historically fulfilled with the death of Jesus.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
This represents a subjective interpretation of ancient scripture, and not what the scripture actually states.

What book are you reading?
What does it state?

Luke 21:24
They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by
the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


I read that as saying the Jews will lose Israel and Jerusalem.
The Gentiles will have their time.
And when their time is finished the Jews will again occupy/control/own Jerusalem.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Did they not recognize Him as earlier prophesied in the OT?

Christians consider Him as Lord, Jesus Christ.

Maybe the Jews will finally get it on His second coming?

All Israeli kings were called ":Messiah" which essentially means anointed. That was done by pouring oil over the person's head. Since Jesus (if he existed) was never actually a king of Israel, he was rejected.
 
Top