Abraham Lincoln was a Democratic socialist

Enoch07 · Aug 27, 2019

Guitar's Cry said:
"I affirm as my conviction that class laws, placing capital above labor, are more dangerous to the Republic at this hour then chattel slavery in the days of its haughtiest supremacy. Labor is prior to and above capital, and deserves much higher consideration."

That is from a Abraham Lincoln speech about slavery. Here is the full speech in context. Lincoln: "Labor Is the Superior of Capital" | HuffPost

"It is not needed, nor fitting here [in discussing the Civil War] that a general argument should be made in favor of popular institutions; but there is one point, with its connections, not so hackneyed as most others, to which I ask a brief attention. It is the effect to place capital on an equal footing with, if not above, labor, in the structure of government. It is assumed that labor is available only in connection with capital; that nobody labors unless somebody else, owning capital, somehow by the use of it induces him to labor. This assumed, it is next considered whether it is best that capital shall hire laborers, and thus induce them to work by their own consent, or buy them, and drive them to it without their consent. Having proceeded thus far, it is naturally concluded that all laborers are either hired laborers or what we call slaves."

Again just more lies from the lunatic left that despite its best interest just cannot bring an honest argument to the table.

Enoch07 · Aug 27, 2019

Polymath257 said:
Actually, it is clear that it was NOT about slavery. The context is the rise of the capitalist state and its effects on, for example, farmers. This was a 'hot topic' at the time.

So, yes, context.

See post #41 for context.

Clearly you are wrong.

Bob the Unbeliever · Aug 27, 2019

pcarl said:
I don't know, according to others of the time he payed more than others. I'm not suggesting he intended to be generous to the workers, but that it was good for business. True someone working for Boeing certainly can't buy a plane, but at least ought to be able to buy a ticket to fly on one. It is very possible for a company to pay just wages and remain profitable. I worked for one company so threatened by the possibility of employees organizing and forming a union that their benefit package exceeded anything the union would offer. It can be done, just takes the will to do it and less greed.

Yes, I have to agree with your analysis. By all accounts, working for Ford-- if you were the "right" sort of American-- was a pretty decent job.

Alas. "... and less greed". That's the rub, isn't it? A system based on greed, is going to devolve, eventually, into who dies with the biggest piles of cash-money to their name.

Enoch07 · Aug 27, 2019

Shadow Wolf said:
Then why are you unable to flesh out a reason and support for your claim beyond

Post #41

I am able to and have. The fact I didn't is because I shouldn't have to.

Do I need to provide a link for air so you don't suffocate now? Sheesh some things are just common knowledge/sense.

Enoch07 · Aug 27, 2019

icehorse said:
I'm not impressed with the GOP's definition of what's baby and what's bathwater

Well that is the whole crux of the situation. They disagree on how extreme of measures and how quickly they are to be implemented is all.

icehorse · Aug 27, 2019

Enoch07 said:
Well that is the whole crux of the situation. They disagree on how extreme of measures and how quickly they are to be implemented is all.

That's a calm way to summarize the disagreements. from where I'm sitting, we need to err on the side of "it's an emergency" for some of these issues, like climate change. I mean if even the Pentagon thinks climate change represents a threat to the country, DC ought to be taking action and not sitting on their thumbs.

ronki23 · Aug 27, 2019

The Republicans were the first to give freedom to the slaves and Lincoln was a Republican; later on in the Southern states (which were Democrat) they wanted to give voting rights to the blacks so that's why nowadays the Southern states are generally Republican.

I normally vote Democrat but my two favourite Republican Presidents were Abe Lincoln and Ronald Reagan

Enoch07 · Aug 27, 2019

icehorse said:
That's a calm way to summarize the disagreements. from where I'm sitting, we need to err on the side of "it's an emergency" for some of these issues, like climate change. I mean if even the Pentagon thinks climate change represents a threat to the country, DC ought to be taking action and not sitting on their thumbs.

Something you need to keep in mind though.

1. The govt is full of greedy people that want to stay alive and be greedy, for that they need taxpayers to elect and pay them.

2. The govt always has more information than the public.

3. If the govt is not making panicked moves to stop climate change its because of the info not available to the public.

4. If the sky was falling priority #1 above would have overridden all esle.

Note that's not climate change denial. It's just noting that the sky is indeed not falling as quickly as many of you think.

ronki23 · Aug 27, 2019

Bob the Unbeliever said:
My how things have flip-flopped. Democrats are now pro-union, pro-labor and anti-slavery.

Whereas REpubs are anti-minimum wage: meaning they would prefer to pay people ZERO dollars, if it were legal. That is to say, they are no longer against slavery...

Who the hell would work for zero dollars?

ronki23 · Aug 27, 2019

PruePhillip said:
What I would like to see is an open and honest acknowledgment from the Democrats
that THEY were the ones who supported
1 - slavery
2 - segregation
3 - KKK

NOT "America"
NOT "white supremacists"
NOT "society"
NOT "Judaeo Christianity"

but D.E.M.O.C.R.A.T.S.

John F Kennedy put an end to segregation

ronki23 · Aug 27, 2019

As Ive said in the past, in America no one party is always better than the other; you look at the needs durin the times. Best Presidents in my opinion are:

1. Abe Lincoln- Unified America and put an end to slavery

2. Franklin D Roosevelt- Got people through a nasty recession (depression) and World War 2

3. Ronald Reagan- Got us through the Cold War and fixed the economy

4. John F Kennedy- Put an end to segregation

5. Bill Clinton- for balancing the budget

6. Barack Obama- for getting America through the 2008-2013 recession

I'd like to know more about Harry Truman, Lyndon B Johnson and Dwight Eisenhower,

Guitar's Cry · Aug 27, 2019

Enoch07 said:
That is from a Abraham Lincoln speech about slavery. Here is the full speech in context. Lincoln: "Labor Is the Superior of Capital" | HuffPost

I stand corrected! The full speech in fuller fullness: State of the Union Address: Abraham Lincoln (December 3, 1861)

Enoch07 said:
Again just more lies from the lunatic left that despite its best interest just cannot bring an honest argument to the table.

<Rolls eyes> Both the right and left distort the truth and lie to fit their narrative.

Enoch07 · Aug 27, 2019

Guitar's Cry said:
I stand corrected! The full speech in fuller fullness: State of the Union Address: Abraham Lincoln (December 3, 1861)

<Rolls eyes> Both the right and left distort the truth and lie to fit their narrative.

And it is our duty as moral citizens of the country to call out the lies.

Guitar's Cry · Aug 27, 2019

Enoch07 said:
And it is our duty as moral citizens of the country to call out the lies.

I agree.

Twilight Hue · Aug 27, 2019

Guitar's Cry said:
Granted, I explained it in a simplistic way, but connecting the parties of the civil war to the parties of today simply by name doesn't quite work. The Southern Democrats were all about small: small business and small government (and slavery), while the Republicans were all for big business and government. What appears to switch is the relationship between business and government.

When you consider human rights, the slavery issue takes full stage: the Democrats wanted government to stay out of that arena. Not so today.

So why even align the parties historically in this sense? Times change. Labels change.

Also only three people ever switched over from Southern Democrat (dixiecrat) to Republican. Apparently the Socialist left thinks that somehow this equates an entire political party in their eyes , and of course they're always willing to lie about the entire thing and say it was the Republicans who were the Democrats of the era.

What utter BS . They made up the story of the 'switch' themselves hoping people won't notice.

It was always the Democrats for which the Jim Crow laws had been staunchly upheld post 'switch' all throughout the duration of Jim Crow.

One look into the Library of Congress archives on the matter will be more than sufficient.

Evangelicalhumanist · Aug 27, 2019

Revoltingest said:
I've learned much from this thread....
1) Republicans want to reinstitute slavery.
2) Democrats want only to be on welfare & smoke pot.
3) Slavery wasn't a factor in the Civil War.

I can only hope that young impressionable children
never read ever this stuff, & take it seriously.

Well, sloganeering has so little room for nuance, you know?

icehorse · Aug 27, 2019

Enoch07 said:
Something you need to keep in mind though.

1. The govt is full of greedy people that want to stay alive and be greedy, for that they need taxpayers to elect and pay them.

2. The govt always has more information than the public.

3. If the govt is not making panicked moves to stop climate change its because of the info not available to the public.

4. If the sky was falling priority #1 above would have overridden all esle.

Note that's not climate change denial. It's just noting that the sky is indeed not falling as quickly as many of you think.

So you're thinking that the government people you've already volunteered are greedy, are also more "in the know" than the Pentagon?

My bet would be that they're in the pockets of oligarchs.

Enoch07 · Aug 27, 2019

icehorse said:
So you're thinking that the government people you've already volunteered are greedy, are also more "in the know" than the Pentagon?

My bet would be that they're in the pockets of oligarchs.

Even if so, Oligarchs can't remain oligarchs if the world goes up in flames.

The whole narrative is self defeating.

Guitar's Cry · Aug 27, 2019

Nowhere Man said:
Also only three people ever switched over from Southern Democrat (dixiecrat) to Republican. Apparently the Socialist left thinks that somehow this equates an entire political party in their eyes , and of course they're always willing to lie about the entire thing and say it was the Republicans who were the Democrats of the era.

What utter BS . They made up the story of the 'switch' themselves hoping people won't notice.

It was always the Democrats for which the Jim Crow laws had been staunchly upheld post 'switch' all throughout the duration of Jim Crow.

One look into the Library of Congress archives on the matter will be more than sufficient.

Would you consider the first Democratic President (Andrew Jackson) a liberal? Would you consider the current presidential candidates of the Democratic party conservative?

This is the problem with identifying political parties with each other through time. Different issues, different people. By supporting modern British Tories, does this mean Trump would have then supported the American Tories (the Loyalists) during the Revolution?

tytlyf · Aug 27, 2019

ronki23 said:
The Republicans were the first to give freedom to the slaves and Lincoln was a Republican

Lincoln was a progressive/liberal

later on in the Southern states (which were Democrat) they wanted to give voting rights to the blacks so that's why nowadays the Southern states are generally Republican.

The southern states have always been conservative. Conservatives were Democrats.
Southern states are republican now, same conservatives.

Abraham Lincoln was a Democratic socialist

It's all a sick freaking joke.

It's all a sick freaking joke.

Well-Known Member

It's all a sick freaking joke.

It's all a sick freaking joke.

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist

Well-Known Member

It's all a sick freaking joke.

Well-Known Member

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Disciple of Pan

It's all a sick freaking joke.

Disciple of Pan

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

"Truth" isn't a thing...

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist

It's all a sick freaking joke.

Disciple of Pan

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