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Why did the Jews reject their Messiah when he DID come?

Tumah

Veteran Member
It's more than you have to the contrary. Plus, there's over forty individuals who have written about Jesus within 150 years of his life.
I'm not sure what you mean by have to the contrary. I don't need to bring proof that something crazy didn't happen. It inherently disproves itself, 40 people who had never met the man, notwithstanding.


There's plenty of Jews who have received Christ as their Messiah and their Savior. Messianic Jews. And it all started in Jerusalem - not by gentiles but by Jews.
Is this an argument for something?

The Resurrection, Tumah. It's the crux of Christianity. If you can bust that, you win and I convert to Judaism.

Would God raise an impostor from the dead, if Jesus were not who he claimed to be? Has he ever resurrected an impostor? No. I've studied that resurrection for forty years from every angle I can, and I can't falsify it. And unless you can, you can't beat Christianity. You're welcome to try now, though.
No, He wouldn't. And He didn't. It can easily be falsified: the book you're reading it from is a fabrication. Done.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
So, in other words, Jews and Judaism is closer to God than Christianity.
Given their exile and suffering under the heel of the Gentile for two
millennium - should we draw any inference from this, or is the Jewish
suffering just a coincidence?
Thats a wild statement. If you worship some satanic creature where you can get moral relativism mixed with moral absolute, i suggest an excorsist.
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
No, just because I point out how your one example isn't messianic and doesn't mention the messiah doesn't mean that all prophecies have to mention the messiah by name. Your conclusion is flawed.

No, it's not flawed. It's exactly what I said - that all Messianic passages don't have to explicitly contain the name Messiah. Ancient rabbis have referred to Isaiah 53 as Messianic and the word Messiah isn't in that chapter.

I'm not sure how you clarified anything. I showed you how the quote you gave to bolster your point does nothing of the sort and you try to equate it to some other case with a skeptic? The totally separate question of one or two messiahs in the text is fruitless as your understanding of the text is limited and your understanding of the eschatalogical approach of Judaism are skewed.

Do you believe Daniel 9:25 is speaking about the Messiah?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
The Messiah ben Joseph suffers and dies, rosends. So how can he be Messiah ben David also in the same lifetime? Judaism has claimed they are two different individuals.
He isn't the same person (though I wouldn;t say he suffers. Who said he is? In fact, it is impossible that they are the same person.
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure what you mean by have to the contrary. I don't need to bring proof that something crazy didn't happen. It inherently disproves itself, 40 people who had never met the man, notwithstanding.
]

"crazy"? "inherently disproves itself"? Not in a million years.

No, He wouldn't. And He didn't. It can easily be falsified: the book you're reading it from is a fabrication. Done.

You haven't busted the resurrection. Just saying it's bogus without any credible foundation doesn't work for you.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
No, it's not flawed. It's exactly what I said - that all Messianic passages don't have to explicitly contain the name Messiah. Ancient rabbis have referred to Isaiah 53 as Messianic and the word Messiah isn't in that chapter.
I never said that they do. Just that the one you quoted isn't messianic and never mentions anything about the messiah.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
"crazy"? "inherently disproves itself"? Not in a million years.
You're right of course. It would be crazy for all eternity not just a million years.

You haven't busted the resurrection. Just saying it's bogus without any credible foundation doesn't work for you.
I'm not sure you understand how the burden of proofs works. I don't have to disprove that something supernatural and absurd happened. The default position is that it didn't happen. That's what makes it supernatural and absurd. There is no evidence other than the NT that it happened, which is of course as a biased source is not any evidence at all.
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
You're right of course. It would be crazy for all eternity not just a million years.


I'm not sure you understand how the burden of proofs works. I don't have to disprove that something supernatural and absurd happened. The default position is that it didn't happen. That's what makes it supernatural and absurd. There is no evidence other than the NT that it happened, which is of course as a biased source is not any evidence at all.

There's a ton of evidence. Apparently you prefer to ignore it.

"The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus," by Dr. Gary Habermas
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
And I have trouble when people quote an entire post and inject, in blue italics, their responses. Go figure.

You mean like this?

No, it is like when you are in the doctor's office telling him that because you know a little Latin you can explain to him why his methods and diagnoses are wrong. He looks and says "you have no idea what you are talking about" and you say "don't insult me -- I studied a little medicine." That you insist that you, who use Fiddler as your source for knowledge of Judaism and Jewish culture, can say things contrary to what Judaism actually is and teaches is insulting.

So like I was in an actual doctor's office, having just studied in 6th grade about vaccines and them talking about I believe it was active vs passive vaccines (one has just antibodies another has a copy of the disease but inert) and I asked which which it was. Pretty quickly I realized that doctors don't actually understand vaccines they prescribe. I have since found out that medical textbooks tell them a few paragraphs at most on thousands of pages, mostly schedules. And again, why I was in high school and so stressed about a college interview that I didn't eat and scratched to the point of my skin getting bruised and purple. They told me they'd never seen this before and couldn't explain what was wrong. Uhhh yeah, I was stressed and starving and had bruised skin. At least they were honest. I vaguely remember psalms about God pulling the haughty from their thrones and lifting up the lowly. So here you are, telling me "I'm an expert really" when you don't remember about Moses killing one of those Egyptian slavedrivers. Yet you're assuming I'm the haughty one.

I didn't say "you'd never understand" just "you have shown that you don't understand."

Well, that's also anthropolgy and sociology, and I studied all three and I still wouldn't piece together what a culture is like from simple observation (all the moreso if the observation is pop culture based).

Yes, yes, by all means tell us your credentials and how I could never understand. Meanwhile, you've yet to state why a person could or couldn't be the Messiah. To be Messiah means to be chosen, annointed. Jesus was annointed. By the sketchiest weirdest women, one of whom annointed his head with oil, another whom annointed his feet with perfume and wiped him with hair and tears. But because these women were sinners, oh no, he couldn't possibly be the chosen one.

Good, since I never said that. Plenty of non-Jews understand. You can tell because they don't post what you did.

What? Rules against idolatry came as a response to invasions? Your timeline is off. If you believe in the biblical text, the rules against idolatry were foundational from the moment the Jewish culture was created, before there were any invasions.

I know when the Ten Commandments we made. I also know the long history of falling away and backsliding, followed by conquest by foreign tribes. Jews as a result became increasingly insular.

That must explain chorban bayit sheini. Thanks. Of course, trying to connect it with the current political situation is silly, but you just go with what you think you know.

Not only isn't this on any other hand, but it isn't an issue of "became" as food rules and other rules weren't developmentally added, nor do they have any negative impact on justice.

Please try to keep up. The Jews made their laws and built traditions around them. But these traditions became divorced from actual human relationships. For instance, a person you help out invites you to their house. They serve kosher food, having researched it extensively. But "I can't eat here", you say, "you don't have two fridges and besides you're a Gentile serving me food." Despite the fact that they were not only careful as best they could to keep meat away from milk and serve no forbidden meats or other foods, you refuse because of who they are. At what point have you stopped being kosher, and started being unjust? Here this pwrson tried to show hospitality but instead you let your standards get in the way. This was what life was like in Jesus's time. They condemned him for eating with unclean hands and eating with unclean ppl. Yet he understood the flaws of kosher. I do too. I'm gonna order a chicken sandwich with grilled cheese (chicken lay eggs, it is not their mother's milk, whereas chicken with egg is allowed).

Sure, if you give any credence to the gospels. I don't.

Can you show me that rule? Hint -- start in the talmud, you know, the rules that Jesus lived by (Mas. Shabbat 128b) and then consider that if the rule is in the Talmud, it would have been what the Jews knew and taught, not what they forgot. Maybe they know the rules better than you and were following the rules. Maybe the gospel writer didn't know the rules.

No, you clearly don't. The fact that you mistake random healing for the Jewish concept which is actually totally allowed on the Sabbath shows that you don't know the laws.

Tell me why it's different then. I watched a movie about Irish settlers moving into a town, and the entire town on the (Christian, so Sunday) Sabbath helped them build a house. Because otherwise they'd not have a home.
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
That's a Christian website. So you are saying that a Christian argues with a Jew over whether something in the Jewish canon means something about Jesus?

It's a Messianic Jewish website. Christianity was started by Jews. Jesus was a Jew and so were his disciples.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
You mean like this?

Yup. And yet somehow I persevere.

So like I was in an actual doctor's office, having just studied in 6th grade about vaccines and them talking about I believe it was active vs passive vaccines (one has just antibodies another has a copy of the disease but inert) and I asked which which it was. Pretty quickly I realized that doctors don't actually understand vaccines they prescribe.

You are presumptuous in a variety of contexts, not just religion. Good to know. A 6th grade education no doubt equips you to judge what a doctor knows and understands.

I have since found out that medical textbooks tell them a few paragraphs at most on thousands of pages, mostly schedules.

And since doctors only know what they read in a textbook in medical school, your conclusion is undoubtedly accurate.

And again, why I was in high school and so stressed about a college interview that I didn't eat and scratched to the point of my skin getting bruised and purple. They told me they'd never seen this before and couldn't explain what was wrong. Uhhh yeah, I was stressed and starving and had bruised skin. At least they were honest.

Wait, doctors don’t know everything? And you didn’t see a psychologist? This is very telling, I’m just not sure how it is remotely relevant.

I vaguely remember psalms about God pulling the haughty from their thrones and lifting up the lowly. So here you are, telling me "I'm an expert really" when you don't remember about Moses killing one of those Egyptian slavedrivers. Yet you're assuming I'm the haughty one.

Actually, I referenced it – he killed an Egyptian who was beating a slave and you call this murder.

Yes, yes, by all means tell us your credentials and how I could never understand.

You want my credentials? I fear you would misunderstand them in the same way that you just misunderstood when I said “I didn't say "you'd never understand" just "you have shown that you don't understand."” And you ask about how you “could never understand.”

Meanwhile, you've yet to state why a person could or couldn't be the Messiah.

You have yet to ask. Simply put, the person needs the person lineage, the qualities and behaviors demanded, and has to fulfill the expectations, every one of them. Jesus fails on a number of levels. I can give you resources to read so you will not stay at the level of a 6th grader in your understanding.

To be Messiah means to be chosen,

Not by definition, no.

annointed,.

Sort of. A king is anointed so when he is made king, he will be anointed by the man who is in the position to anoint (a prophet or similar religious leader]

Jesus was annointed.

No. He wasn’t. The anointing has to be by a particular type of oil absent in Jesus’ day. So, no, couldn’t possibly be anything in particular.

I know when the Ten Commandments we made. I also know the long history of falling away and backsliding, followed by conquest by foreign tribes. Jews as a result became increasingly insular.

If you knew, you wouldn’t have said what you did. And the “increasingly insular” is actually wrong. Over time, the Jews became less insular and that was the problem.

Please try to keep up. The Jews made their laws and built traditions around them.

That’s what you want to believe, based on your 6th grade education, movies and all.

But these traditions became divorced from actual human relationships.

No, later ideas were often BECAUSE of human relationships. Pas Akum for example.

For instance, a person you help out invites you to their house. They serve kosher food, having researched it extensively. But "I can't eat here", you say, "you don't have two fridges and besides you're a Gentile serving me food."

Again with the 2 fridges? Where do you get this stuff? And what’s the problem of a non-Jew serving food? You make up rules and then say how horrible they are.

Despite the fact that they were not only careful as best they could to keep meat away from milk and serve no forbidden meats or other foods, you refuse because of who they are.

Again, this just shows that you don’t understand the rules. Let’s say you build a car in your garage. You tried really hard to follow what you think are the basic rules and yet the government won’t make it street legal. But, heck, YOU TRIED and your superficial understanding of the rules should be enough, right? Do you act as a doctor to your friends because you try, based on your 6th grade medical knowledge? Is it offensive if they don’t rely on your medical advice?

At what point have you stopped being kosher, and started being unjust?

I haven’t. That you ask just means you don’t understand how things work.

Yet he understood the flaws of kosher. I do too. I'm gonna order a chicken sandwich with grilled cheese (chicken lay eggs, it is not their mother's milk, whereas chicken with egg is allowed).

Since you aren’t bound by the laws of kosher, go eat whatever you want. The question of eggs and chicken is a non-starter. No one has said that it isn’t allowed.

Tell me why it's different then. I watched a movie about Irish settlers moving into a town, and the entire town on the (Christian, so Sunday) Sabbath helped them build a house. Because otherwise they'd not have a home.

Why general healing and saving a life are different? Because a cold, or a tooth ache aren’t the same as dying. I hope that that’s pretty obvious.

If a Jewish family moved into a town that lacked a house, on a Sabbath, then a Jewish family would host them. Simple. Solved.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
It's a Messianic Jewish website. Christianity was started by Jews. Jesus was a Jew and so were his disciples.
Messianic Jewish is code for Christian. Unless you think that "mohemmedean Christian" is something different from Muslim.

Something someone starts as separate and different is therefore not the same.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Hey just a heads up, when I quote stuff you pick at quote by quote like this it winds up looking like this. Riddled with comments that I can't easily respond to without copying and pasting. Generally, I have a better attitude toward ppl when they view my posts as one long thread rather than nitpicking individual points.

You say it's because you're a Jew and you understand Jewish concepts, and I feel like I'm in a doctor's office and they're trying to treat me like a kid by using words in hopes that I don't understand Latin roots. Only I kinda do, and the fact that someone is like "you'd never understand" is frankly insulting. Christians came from Judaism actually, and I've studied many (though not all) of the laws.
I've also studied psychology, and can piece together what a culture is like from the rules they make, so no, I'm agraid (dammit Kindle) this "only Jews can understand" won't cut it. The Jewish culture repeatedly was invaded by outsiders so they began to see mixing with other cultures and worshipping their gods as sin, as they fell as a country whenever they let foreign interests run their lives. They are currently doing it again, btw, with Palestine. On the other hand, Jewish culture became centered around these "walls" (kosher refusal to mix anything) so to speak to such an extent that they often lost sight of justice. By the time of Jesus's ministry, they had basically pushed away most of their prophets who declared a change from these traditions and Judaism really was stuck in the mud. They valued Sabbath, but forgot that there was a rule that if one's horse or ox was suffering that day, it was your job to try to save its life. Jesus healed during the Sabbath, yet had to quote again and again why to do so. They had become rules lawyers, losing touch of why the law mattered in the first place. But no, I don't know anything about Judaism! ;p

And Montreal does have alot of walls. But they are not centered progressively around a single building. The Jewish culture layers walls based on levels of clearance, almost like a FBI building and its keycards. You can tell about the culture by how it treats common objects. Montreal I don't think I've been to, but I'm pretty sure they don't have a huge curtain obscuring sight of a room, as it was in Jesus's time. These things matter, and the fact that you don't seem to understand what I'm getting at, means you understand this mindset less even than I do. Why did the Christian account of Jesus's death include the curtain being ripped? Why do you think this was important? I can answer if you can't!

This is a little bit remote from the subject of the thread, but nonetheless . . .

The curtain being ripped is symbolic of the end of priestly authority to forgive sins, priestly authority to define the relationship between humanity and God. Th relationship between man and God is direct without the necessity of a priest intermediate. In a way also the exclusiveness of Jewish religion and opening up the relationship between humanity and God to include gentiles(?).
 
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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
What's the Jewish translation?
Like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet. Psalm 22:16

Keep in mind that for Jews, translations are not the word of God. It is the Hebrew text (and not the Septuagint) that is canon. This is why we teach our children to read Hebrew, so that they are hopefully not dependent upon inferior translations with its interpretations.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
This might be a circular argument.
Christians sees Christ as both Redeemer and King.
Quite true.

I'm just telling you that the context of these verses is that Redeemer is describing God, and not the messiah; King is describing an earthly human king and not God (hence no Trinity). Thus, Christian theology is built upon sand.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Keep in mind that for Jews, translations are not the word of God. It is the Hebrew text (and not the Septuagint) that is canon. This is why we teach our children to read Hebrew, so that they are hopefully not dependent upon inferior translations with its interpretations.
Except that ancient Hebrew still needs to be translated because so many words are conjectural as to what they mean today. Many of the birds that are considered treif, for example, cannot be identified today.

And since we don't have any original manuscripts, we simply do not know with any certainty which words and narratives are entirely on the mark today.

Also, I assume you've been involved with Torah study, and with that you would well know that interpretations can vary-- sometimes quite widely. Ya know: two Jews = three opinions on just about anything and everything.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
So, in other words, Jews and Judaism is closer to God than Christianity.

No. Please stop the ' . . . in other words,' nonsense, and cite me specifically.



Given their exile and suffering under the heel of the Gentile for two
millennium - should we draw any inference from this, or is the Jewish
suffering just a coincidence?

Neither the Jewish suffering is just that, Jewish suffering under the heel and oppression of Christianity.
 
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