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The 4 gospels was signed and dated. All before 62 AD!

firedragon

Veteran Member
Thank you for your input.
I do however have a thinking that due to the Bysantium manuscripts having these colophoms, the history of the manuscripts might be authentic.
I am however not a Biblical scholar, and simply fount this very interesting.
I also learned from Daniel Wallace that even though the colophons does existon this family, it is just more information, but not conclusive to date the manuscripts at all.
Sort of having a coppy of a manuscript with a scribe putting a date on the end telling it is a coppy from a manuscript that was first written in 40AD, but there is no evidence to substantiate it.
And by the way, I love Biblical Textual critisizm, but it is used in many instances to discredit the Christian scriptures, by so called Biblical scholars and Bible critisizers.

Brother. Lets take the Greek text of the Bible that is taken as the standard for any modern bible. Check out Novum Testamentum Graece brother. The bible will be translated into our comprehensible languages based on that. This is the critical edition. Otherwise we are not trying at all to go to the originals. Even if we may have some mistakes in them, this is with any rationality the best way to have any kind of authentic bible.

And its done purely because of "textual criticism". Textual criticism is not used to discredit the Bible, its used to go to the original teachings. You are mistaken brother.

And with all due respect to your faith some Colophons have been proven to be just a faith based guess of an author, date and whatever information it may contain. A lot of them contradict scholars who date bibles. For example the Gospel of Mark is the earliest and is dated to the year 60 A.D. Some manuscripts have Colophons that date it to the year 40 or 41 A.D. It is more than evident that its what that particular writer or copier thought the original date is such. Its belief, not that he wrote it on that particular date.

Anyway, you got it right bro. Wish you the best. Cheers.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
And with all due respect to your faith some Colophons have been proven to be just a faith based guess of an author, date and whatever information it may contain. A lot of them contradict scholars who date bibles. For example the Gospel of Mark is the earliest and is dated to the year 60 A.D. Some manuscripts have Colophons that date it to the year 40 or 41 A.D.
Please supply with refrences and sources.
I need this.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Please supply with refrences and sources.
I need this.

Brother. You quoted Nolen Jones and his writing "The Gospel Colophons". Read that document and you will find one of his references "Codex Gregory 676" which is placed in the Cat 5 or majority text. This is dated to the 13th century. This dating is a palaeographic dating and is very accurate.

Nolen Jones says the end of Luke has a colophon and that dates Luke to 15 years after the ascension. That would be around 48 A.D. In his thesis this would mean the Synoptic Problem is false. (Please do a search for the Synoptic problem. Its curriculum in New Testament Studies). He says this because that would mean Luke is written before Mark, which makes the Markan Priority false (Mark being the first written according to scholarship). What he is trying to say is that since Luke is written before Mark, Luke cannot have been influenced by Mark. So the concept of L,M sources is B.S. This is the theory of Nolen Jones you have quoted. Its absolutely proven false.

For example Luke or the writer of Luke had extensive knowledge of Syrian administration which did not occur until the 50's. And if Luke was written before Mark, it would only change Markan priority to Lukan priority and its a traditional study of the synoptic problem as well.

I recommend you to read three authors. Raymond Brown, Bruce Metzger and Mark Allan Powell to understand the dating of Luke and of course other gospels. And many other things on Bible scholarship.

I will leave you with a simple thing. Simple logic.

Do you really think a 13th century manuscript would date itself to 48 AD? No. Thats an assumption made by the writer. A simple assumption. A devotional one at that.

Peace.
 

night912

Well-Known Member
True, But why claim the Sianiticus and Vaticanus is more superior than the TR?
I only replied to a notion that the Scribes of the colophons were making a forgery by their inserts.
I dont know when last you opened a NIV where the intro attempts to describe the inferriority of the TR etc.
But it actually borders on telling the Reader that the KJV is a poor translation due to inferior manuscripts.
All that is irrelevant to your original post that I'm addressing. Does any later copies of a forgery make it true? The answer is no. Or if 1400 manuscripts were false, all later copies of those are also false.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
Luke had extensive knowledge of Syrian administration
Please assist!
I tried to get this information you spoke about, but it is also new to me, and the closest I got is this article.
What Luke Actually Wrote
Is this the Syrian administration problem you refer to?
Please elaborate if it is not.
I want to see for myself.
As for Raymond Brown,
Bruce Metzger
and Mark Allan Powell
One of the most liberal and leftist theologians in the world who received his education at Union Theological seminary!
Look at these guys:
Union Theological Seminary (New York City) - Wikipedia
he called himself a progressive Christian, which means he does not believe in half of what the Bible say anyhow. he in his education he assisted with Liberation theology.
Bruce Metzger, Yes a great scholar, who I personally detest due to him using mass propaganda in furthering the NIV, and other New translations, critisizing the TR.
he actually achieved to get coppyrights on the Bible.
Raymond Brown does not believe Jesus is God at all!

Why is it that the most liberal unchristian scholars on earth managed to get in a position to discredit not only the Bible translations, but also the core foundation of the Christians religion, and managed to change the conservative religious believs of Christianity into a religion in denial of jesus?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Please assist!
I tried to get this information you spoke about, but it is also new to me, and the closest I got is this article.
What Luke Actually Wrote
Is this the Syrian administration problem you refer to?
Please elaborate if it is not.
I want to see for myself.
As for Raymond Brown,
Bruce Metzger
and Mark Allan Powell
One of the most liberal and leftist theologians in the world who received his education at Union Theological seminary!
Look at these guys:
Union Theological Seminary (New York City) - Wikipedia
he called himself a progressive Christian, which means he does not believe in half of what the Bible say anyhow. he in his education he assisted with Liberation theology.
Bruce Metzger, Yes a great scholar, who I personally detest due to him using mass propaganda in furthering the NIV, and other New translations, critisizing the TR.
he actually achieved to get coppyrights on the Bible.
Raymond Brown does not believe Jesus is God at all!

Why is it that the most liberal unchristian scholars on earth managed to get in a position to discredit not only the Bible translations, but also the core foundation of the Christians religion, and managed to change the conservative religious believs of Christianity into a religion in denial of jesus?

Brother. Read Black's bible commentaries on Gospel of Luke. Articles online are very shallow to be frank. But the thing is brother when you read commentaries on one particular gospel you would not get much information on the synoptic problem.

Dont be put off by the words "problem" and "criticism". They are not negative terms. They are fields of study. 100s of years of study and scholarship in them. These are fundamentals in New Testament studies. One must understand though brother that most of these are theories. Not the datings, but the QLM sources. It creates that foundation for studies in the Bible.

Nevertheless, read books bro. Books.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
Brother. Read Black's bible commentaries on Gospel of Luke. Articles online are very shallow to be frank. But the thing is brother when you read commentaries on one particular gospel you would not get much information on the synoptic problem.

Dont be put off by the words "problem" and "criticism". They are not negative terms. They are fields of study. 100s of years of study and scholarship in them. These are fundamentals in New Testament studies. One must understand though brother that most of these are theories. Not the datings, but the QLM sources. It creates that foundation for studies in the Bible.

Nevertheless, read books bro. Books.
Sorry, I missed out on your link where you can tell me what this "Syrrian administration of Luke?
Please assist.
or at least tell me what you are talking about.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Incredible information.

Over the past 30 years or so, I studied religions, and was always, even last week, confronted with textual Criticism proving the manuscripts of the NT as unreliable.

The so called “Facts” is that we do not have the original manuscripts, and what we have, only date from 300 years after Christ. Actually, we do have partial manuscripts that dates from 100 year upward after Christ’s ascension, but there is no way one can convince the Bible criticizer that these copies are the true re written replacements on the original Gospels by the hands of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

Furthermore, there are constructed accusations against the Gospels where it is said that there was a “Q” source for the writings of Matthew and Luke, and that Mark was written first where Matthew and Luke actually critique Mark. Even if there isnot a single manuscript discovered to give credence to this claim.

The above "Textual critisizm" claim concludes that the Christians do not have any authenticated manuscripts, and that a lot of changing and assumptions were introduced into the Gospels by Christians to deify Jesus, making the NT questionable.

In this regard, the Christian religion is just as questionable as the scriptures they adhere too. Compare this with the Quran and the Gospels are not in a better situation such as an Allah who "Protected" his revelations,

Bible criticizers creates the imagery that the Christian New Testament is one huge concoction where its Authors are unknown, the writers of the Gospels are confused, and many changes was introduced into the Gospels resulting in so many variants, or “Versions” in the New Testament.

Sad to say, I have to agree on the current evidence, it is partially true!

Lets see what I learned.
Today we have only 2 different New Testaments. (We have numerous NT translations, versions and many more personalised Bibles each carrying their own copurights as if God's Word can be copyrighted by some translator of the NT.

One set of Manuscripts is known through the King James version, the Texus Receptus which is named the Byzantium family (F35), the other is known as the New International translation and al the other “New” translations we see today belonging to the Alexandrian family of manuscripts known as the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus. (There are actually 4 families of NT manuscripts, but we will stay with the Byzantium and Alexandrean families, for the others are very small or even represented by the 2 bigger ones.)

This weekend I bought myself a KJVER sword bible, and I found an article that stunned me to my soul!

“In 2008, Dr. Wilbur N. Pickering (Th.M. Dallas Theological Seminary in Greek Exegesis, Ph.D. University of Toronto in Linguistics) discovered colophons in numerous ancient manuscripts that contained the Gospels.”

Here is the article link:

http://www.standardbearers.net/uplo...ptic_Problem_Dr_Floyd_Nolen_Jones_ThD_PhD.pdf

Guess what is a Colophon?

It is the Author’s name, and the date when he “published” his book. This is found at the end of the Book, and not as we have it today at the beginning. Sort of the signature of the author!

And, just take a moment to comprehend what they found!

John was published 32 Years after the ascension. = Making this book published and signed off in 62AD

Luke 15 Years after the ascension =45AD

Mark 10 Years = 40AD and

Matthew 8 years = 38 AD.

Guys, this is something incredible if true. The Apostles SIGNED THEIR WORK OFF AND WROTE A DATE ON THE YEAR OF PUBLICATION!
Then I realised something I suspected throughout all my studies.

These Colophon’s were all found in the Texus Receptus manuscripts (Byzantium), which is the ones we know as the King James Version!

Now, why I never learned about the above is a worrying factor. Does our Christian apologists know about this?

Anyway, I now have evidence that the Authors of the Gospels are the ones it is named as such.

And the dates of the NT was between 8 years to 32 Years after Jesus ascended into heaven.

And that the King James version is the true Word of God.

And lastly, the Authors of the Gospels signed their work off in person.

All the other manuscripts with all those terrible errors are mere secondary copies of what the Christians today have in their hands.
I forwarded this post to the Dalas seminar through a close friend to RD Wallace, who collects digital photos of all the Greek manuscripts to confirm what I learned is not just some bit of fake news. If there is anyone here that can elaborate, please do so.
Haleluja!
Sorry - I'm going to believe Early Christian Writings over you:

Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Sorry, I missed out on your link where you can tell me what this "Syrrian administration of Luke?
Please assist.
or at least tell me what you are talking about.

Ah. The Syrian administration part. Dont hang on that bro. Its just a passing comment and it will just lead you away as it already has.

Nevertheless, let me explain one part of it. Luke and acts were written by the same person, at the same time. This is consensus. Acts 15 speaks about the Jerusalem Decree and the schisms which happened starting in 50 A.D (some say 48).
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
if I knew this 20 years ago, I could have proven many Muslims and atheists incorrect on this point also.

It wouldn't have advanced your case by even an inch.
You'ld still have nothing but words. Just like all other religions.
No evidence at all.

However, I learned that this information was only discovered in 2008.

Which is 11 years ago.
You'ld think that a big discovery like that would make headlines if it actually were significant and accurate.

The fact that you only learn about this after all this time, should tell you something about it's significance and/or accuracy.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Why on earth would any scribe write a manuscript in 225 AD, and willfully enter a date of 38AD?

I think that's quite easy to imagine:

- Because the script being copied didn't have such a date and the scribe felt like it should, so the scribe puts down the date that he believes it was.

- Because the ruling king orders the scribe to put it in, just to make it sound more believable - kings like their subjects to just follow and not ask too many questions. Or any questions.

- ...

I think all these are plausible and not at all a stretch of the imagination.
In fact, we have plenty of precedents of things being altered later on, and you even acknowledge this.
So why couldn't this be one of those times?

Could it perhaps be that you rule that out, because it is convenient for you to believe it is authentic?
Because you "like it" this way?

It sure sounds like it.

You obviously are totally unaware that the Christians in the first 3 centuries were highly persecuted, and their writings were confiscated and burned with them if found.

So?
Were they punished extra harshly if the scripts they did carry and/or copied wheren't fully authentic?

No? Then why is it relevant that christians were prosecuted to the point if these "datings" are significant, or to the idea that it might have been added later on?

This is where you want to force ignorance onto people who lived with a conscience that they will answer to God for their actions, claimimg they will forge some date on manuscripts.

Consider my two example motivations above.

1. The king need not even really be a christian. He might very well just make clever use of the religion to have his people do his bidding and just pretend to believe. Again - not like we don't have any precedents of such.

2. In the example where the scribe in the year 250 adds it because he thinks it should be and then writes down what he (and/or christians at that time) honestly believes is the accurate date, then it's hardly forging, now is it?

1. The Christians were watching their every move. If they were to commit such a fraud, they will record such an act, and we have many such incidences where the Church Fathers did call the gnostics out on their claims.
2. If the Christians were to commit such fraud, the gnostics would have had a field day too.
3. The Christians of the first 3 centuries were very strict on the copies they made, and even today one can see that the manuscripts up untill 400 AD are very close. if there is an accusation that not one manuscript is the same as the next, it is from a perspective of Textual Critisism where Christians calls it as such. The reason, well even if some scribe used numbers in the place of writing out say, 3 loaves and 5 fishes, in stead of THREE and FIVE, it is considered as a change.
4. No other book on earth is scrutinised as is the NT Gospels' manuscripts. And all that Christian scholars are doing is to establish why there is a difference between the Alexandrian, and Byzantium with some verses, or parts of verses removed from the Alexandrian?
5. It is a fact that the Aleph manuscripts(Sinaiticus) and B (vaticanus) removed the last verses of Mark 16. But the space where it should have been written on in the manuscript, remained empty. Now such an occurance does not exist anywhere in the Sinaiticus, only where these verses were removed.

I love how you apparantly ignore the precedents of where we know that things have been added, deleted or altered. It persists into bibles today in the various denominations. There's hardly a "calling out" of it. In fact, for many of them it took secular historians to discover the edits...


Having said that.... you remind me a lot of how muslims talk about their quran.
 
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