Why did the Jews reject their Messiah when he DID come?

PruePhillip · Aug 27, 2019

Tumah said:
Isaiah is speaking of Israel. The first three quarters of the chapter is a continuation of the end of the previous chapter where the Gentile leaders of the Messianic era contemplate their treatment of Israel over the previous Exile.

This is the standard, boiler plate Jewish response.

Israel is mentioned in the first half of Isaiah 52. It then switches to a man.
This continues for the entirety of chapter 53.
This man will die for the nation and the world. In His death he will see what
He has accomplished in redeeming us, and be glad.
This is not Israel. The Jews do not redeem anyone, the Jew is not the pure
and spotless lamb.

PruePhillip · Aug 27, 2019

IndigoChild5559 said:
David doesn't speak of the messiah at all in psalms 22.

Job doesn't speak of the Messiah either.

Parsing this sentence, "I know that my Redeemer lives, and he shall stand on the earth in the latter day."

I… not someone else, me

Know… not believe, not think, not suppose, but know

My… not someone else's, mine

Redeemer… not a king, not a warrior, not a philosopher

Lives … not did live, not will live, but live as in now

He … coming as a man

Shall… not maybe, not possibly

Stand… not recline, lie down - but stand for something

Earth … here, this place

Latter day… in the future - for Job this about 500 to a thousand years before Jesus.

Spartan · Aug 27, 2019

Tumah said:
That's pretty stubborn (some might say foolish, but I'm not going to say that) of you, to stand by demonstrably false claims.

It's more than stubborn when the Messiah has already come and healed the sick, raised the dead, resurrected, and fulfilled numerous Messianic prophecies to claim it's all false. The number of people who would have to be lying, charlatans, or fools when writing or attesting about him is way too long to be believable.

Tumah said:
There's that piercingly intelligent argument we've come to expect from you, the venerable Dr. Brown and the NT.
I am blown away by the way you've clearly proven that what it says is not what it means.

Be blown away. You're mistaken about Christ, the Messiah.

When Moses appeared, the people rebelled against him. When God was on Mt. Sinai, the people rebelled. When the prophets spoke, they were persecuted and/or killed. They were blind to the truths of God. Why should it be any different when the Jewish Messiah appears? It's the same old story.

wizanda · Aug 27, 2019

IndigoChild5559 said:
"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)

No one has done this yet.

Isaiah 11:4 but with righteousness he will judge the poor, and decide with equity for the humble of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the breath of his lips he will kill the wicked.

No one has done this yet either, and we're here before Armageddon happens in the Middle East, with a choice to learn or all the wicked get removed in a day by God as prophesied.

In my opinion.

PruePhillip · Aug 27, 2019

IndigoChild5559 said:
David doesn't speak of the messiah at all in psalms 22.
.

Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce my hands and my feet.
All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

Do you think David is speaking of himself?

Desert Snake · Aug 27, 2019

wizanda said:
Actually it is... Let's explain the Tanakh for you, as Jews don't care about learning from the Messiah anyway:

After doing some word searches with Esword Bible Software, using a KJV+ which allows us to search Strongs reference numbers, we get these results:

H3444 (Yeshua) + H1961 (To become) = Exodus 15:2, Psalms 118:14-21, Isaiah 12:2 (2 Samuel 10:11 David Vs Ammon) +5 Verses Isaiah

H3444 (Yeshua) + H7200 (To see) = Exodus 14:13, Psalms 98:3, Isaiah 52:10 (2 Chronicles 20:17 Jehoshaphat Vs Ammon)

H3091 (Yehoshua) + H1961 (To become) = Deuteronomy 31:23, Zechariah 3:3

H3091 (Yehoshua) + H7200 (To See) = Deuteronomy 3:28, Zechariah 3:1

To explain Yehoshua:

Moses explains that Yehoshua (Lord saves), who had his name changed from Hosea (Saviour) shall lead our people into the promised land.

Then Yehoshua son of Yehozedek led our people back from the Babylonian exile, and becomes a symbolic Branch of the Kingship of David.

Then Yehoshua son of Joseph cut off our people for paying 30 pieces of silver for him, and shall remove the false gods, which include these 'Fakes' soon.

Next Yeshua:

So Moses sees the Salvation of God separate the Red Sea in Exodus 14:3, and Exodus the Lord says "I shall become your Salvation (Yeshua)".

In Psalms 118 the Lord says he will become our Salvation, and the Chief Corner Stone that the Builders (Jews) will reject.

When David fought the Children of Ammon, he was told if they're too strong, the Lord will become our Salvation; thus when Jehoshaphat fought Ammon, the Lord literally fought, and scared other nations.

This same poetic song is continued by Isaiah 12:2 that the Lord becomes our Salvation.

So when David is told in Psalm 89:19-21 (which is paraphrased in Isaiah 52:13-14) that he shall be made into the Messiah a holy vessel of the Lord; he is also told his own people will murder him, and that he will suffer many things before the Messianic Age.

In Isaiah 52:10-15 David has the spirit of Yeshuat Eloheinu (Salvation from God) put into a human sanctified vessel, which is then the Messiah's symbolic name as well of Yehoshua/Yeshua.

Yahavah Elohim means the Divine Creator Being, he is the creator of our reality, everything exists because it makes it happen... So reality has to come from it, anything else is atheistic.

The Source of our reality is the God Most High (El Elyon) and Yeshua & Yahavah Elohim are Divine aspects of that one Source...

Same theology existed in many ancient cultures before it was muddled up, and according to the Curse of Moses these 'Fakes' who have done so will soon be removed into the Lake of Fire (Deuteronomy 29:19-27).

In my opinion.

I'm not sure if you have an obsession with finding idolatry, everywhere, or what, however what you are saying, isn't the "theology" in the Bible, because you separate the creator, or whatever, from God. That isn't traditional. I don't know why you're doing that. I don't believe it's a correct correlation.

Desert Snake · Aug 27, 2019

@wizanda

You seem to be taking the false established church, [and many jews, it seems, absurd approach to divine manifestation, which Jesus spoke against.
•
The false diviners who said that worship could only occur in Jerusalem, is a theistic mess, the verses themselves showing that, with the inanity of such an idea.

IndigoChild5559 · Aug 27, 2019

PruePhillip said:
Parsing this sentence, "I know that my Redeemer lives, and he shall stand on the earth in the latter day."

I… not someone else, me

Know… not believe, not think, not suppose, but know

My… not someone else's, mine

Redeemer… not a king, not a warrior, not a philosopher

Lives … not did live, not will live, but live as in now

He … coming as a man

Shall… not maybe, not possibly

Stand… not recline, lie down - but stand for something

Earth … here, this place

Latter day… in the future - for Job this about 500 to a thousand years before Jesus.

A Redeemer is not a king. A redeemer is someone who redeems you. In this case the Redeemer is the Lord God.

He... God is referred to as "he."

You get the idea.

IndigoChild5559 · Aug 27, 2019

PruePhillip said:
Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce my hands and my feet.
All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

Do you think David is speaking of himself?

The part about piercing my hands and feet is a mistranslation. Use a Jewish one.

Yes, David is speaking of himself.

Desert Snake · Aug 27, 2019

Desert Snake said:
I'm not sure if you have an obsession with finding idolatry, everywhere, or what, however what you are saying, isn't the "theology" in the Bible, because you separate the creator, or whatever, from God. That isn't traditional. I don't know why you're doing that. I don't believe it's a correct correlation.

God is self created, the 'creation', isn't linear correlate to a separate task. Otherwise, where did God get the materials, so forth.

wizanda · Aug 27, 2019

Desert Snake said:
Matthew 22:37-46
'Why does David call me Lord', is what Jesus says.

Matthew 22:43 He said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call him Lord...

In other words: 'Yahavah says to David you shall sit at my right hand, and be made of the order of Melchizedek, that you shall suffer many things, and then given an inheritance as Messiah of the whole earth.

Desert Snake said:
This brings us to your idea of Judah is cursed, which isn't the perspective that is in Acts. So why not?

The Pharisees have rewritten the Curse, and Acts became theirs, it did start as an account of what happened after possibly by Luke; yet they then grafted their fake religion of Christianity onto the Ebionites (Poor Ones), who were the real followers of Yeshua.

Desert Snake said:
You'll need to explain that Judah is cursed, idea, for this to really make sense.

The best way to understand it, is read the Curse of Moses in Deuteronomy 28; this was placed when they paid 30 pieces of Silver for Yeshua in Zechariah 11, where they then eat each others flesh at the Second Temple destruction (Zechariah 11:9, Deuteronomy 28:53-55).

The Anti-christ's which comes from the Fake Shepherds (Pharisees, Sadducee, Levite sects) are blind in an eye, and thus are blinded to seeing Yeshua in the Tanakh (Zechariah 12:4, Deuteronomy 28:28-29).

So they rewrote the Curse in Paul's letters claiming it was disannulled as Yeshua was dead, and they've tried to graft the Gentiles onto their defiled covenant - to basically Snare everyone in the process as prophesied.

In my opinion.

IndigoChild5559 · Aug 27, 2019

Desert Snake said:
God is self created, the 'creation', isn't linear correlate to a separate task. Otherwise, where did God get the materials, so forth.

It is usual to simply say God is not created at all, but is eternal.

PruePhillip · Aug 27, 2019

IndigoChild5559 said:
The part about piercing my hands and feet is a mistranslation. Use a Jewish one.

Yes, David is speaking of himself.

What's the Jewish translation?

PruePhillip · Aug 27, 2019

IndigoChild5559 said:
A Redeemer is not a king. A redeemer is someone who redeems you. In this case the Redeemer is the Lord God.

He... God is referred to as "he."

You get the idea.

This might be a circular argument.
Christians sees Christ as both Redeemer and King.
Zechariah speaks of the Coming King as being the one who
was pierced, the one who was lowly and riding upon a donkey

Zechariah 12
King and Redeemer

On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem
a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have
pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and
grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Tumah · Aug 27, 2019

PruePhillip said:
Read it carefully and thoughtfully. Jacob is telling Judah that from him shall come a line of kings. That infers a nation as you can't have a monarchy without the claim to a nation.

And there's the law under his protection.
UNTIL the Messiah comes.
Until, meaning, an end to the Monarchy and the Law.
And in Him shall the Gentiles trust.

Thus, no more Jewish law, monarchy and nation, and someone in whom the Gentiles,
rather than the Jew, now trust.

I have no idea how you are reading this. The nation of Israel is the nation under which Judah and later David and his descendants rule. It says nothing about the Law. It says nothing about Gentiles trusting him. It says nothing about an end to the Jewish nation.

"The scepter shall not depart from Judah and the [power to] decree from between his legs until Shiloh comes. And to him nations will gather."

'Until' is expressing the time period the monarchy will be in Judah's hands.

Going with the interpretation of Shiloh as the Messiah (it could just as easily - and probably more simply - refer to Ahijah, but we also have a tradition that it refers to the Messiah as well), it's saying that the monarchy will always belong to Judah until the Messiah comes. That doesn't mean that the monarchy stops at that point. The Messiah himself is from the tribe of Judah and holds the position of king, so clearly he is included in this time frame.

A monarchy needs a nation, but a nation does not need a monarchy. I don't know how you are mixing all of this together.

Rival · Aug 27, 2019

PruePhillip said:
What's the Jewish translation?

My strength became dried out like a potsherd, and my tongue cleaves to my palate; and You set me down in the dust of death.
For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet.

wizanda · Aug 27, 2019

Desert Snake said:
however what you are saying, isn't the "theology" in the Bible, because you separate the creator, or whatever, from God. That isn't traditional.

According to the Bible the whole world is deceived by the Antichrist's teachings, people are just not wise enough to understand it.

The God Most High (El Elyon) separated the nations among the Elohim in Deuteronomy 32:7-9; so we have the Source (EL), and then the Divine Council (Elohim - Psalms 82:1).

In Revelation there are 24 Elders (Elohim) who sit around God Almighty (El Shaddai).

Isaiah 46:9 paraphrases Deuteronomy 32:7 at the start, and then explains El is not like the Elohim; where the Children of Babylon i.e 'Fake Jews' will muddle up the language, claiming El and Elohim are the same thing...

Which is why they rejected Yeshua Elohim for thinking it means God, not an Archangel, as the language implies.

El = Source (H410)
EL + H = Eloh - a Divine Being (H433)
Eloh + Im = Plural Divine Beings (H430)

David in his Psalms declares Yahavah 'and' El Elyon in multiple sentences as two references, one is the Source (EL) of reality, the other is the Creator Being (Yahavah Elohim):

2 Samuel 22:14 & Psalms 18:13 Yahweh thundered from heaven 'and' The Most High uttered his voice. + Psalms 21:7 + Psalms 50:14 + Psalms 78:35 + Psalms 92:1

So who cares if the traditional ideas from scholarship don't agree with the Bible down near Hell before Judgement Day; only the wise will be in the Age to Come.

In my opinion.

Tumah · Aug 27, 2019

Spartan said:
It's more than stubborn when the Messiah has already come and healed the sick, raised the dead, resurrected, and fulfilled numerous Messianic prophecies to claim it's all false. The number of people who would have to be lying, charlatans, or fools when writing or attesting about him is way too long to be believable.

The total number is the total number of people who authored the NT. That's...not very much at all.

Be blown away. You're mistaken about Christ, the Messiah.

When Moses appeared, the people rebelled against him. When God was on Mt. Sinai, the people rebelled. When the prophets spoke, they were persecuted and/or killed. They were blind to the truths of God. Why should it be any different when the Jewish Messiah appears? It's the same old story.

So you're saying, the Jewish people are wrong even though they can't rationally be proven to be wrong, just because we have a history of sometimes doing the wrong thing.
That's an interesting argument, but not a very convincing one, I'm afraid. Not that I expected better from you, but still.

PruePhillip · Aug 27, 2019

Rival said:
My strength became dried out like a potsherd, and my tongue cleaves to my palate; and You set me down in the dust of death.
For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet.

And what is the Jewish translation for this, Zechariah 12
On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem
a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have
pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and
grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Rival · Aug 27, 2019

PruePhillip said:
And what is the Jewish translation for this, Zechariah 12
On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem
a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have
pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and
grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Even a quick read of this tells you that this has nothing to do with Jesus and everything to do with Jerusalem. This whole context is about that city.

Also, next time I read a book that describes a dark haired girl called Emilie, I'll take it as red that it's obviously about me since it couldn't possibly have any other context or be about anyone else.

Why did the Jews reject their Messiah when he DID come?

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Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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