Why did the Jews reject their Messiah when he DID come?

Tumah · Aug 27, 2019

Spartan said:
I love Messianic literature, etc.

Skeptics argue that Jesus didn't fulfill all the Messianic prophecies so he can't be the Messiah. The correct response to that is that Jesus fulfilled a good number of them during his first advent and will fulfill the remainder when he returns at the end times.

And of course that's a) not true and b) not a good argument, per the comment you have quoted.

Daniel chapter nine has been acknowledged my many as a Messianic prophecy (I have quotes from ancient Rabbis).

You have not.

If you read it in light of the Messiah, it says he will be "cut off" (killed), and THEN "war will continue until the end." So, if that's the Conquering King Messiah Judaism believes in, then how is he a final conqueror when he's killed before he can finally conquer?

Your question doesn't begin because your entire conception of Daniel 9 is wrong. For one thing, using "messiah" to specifically mean the Messiah is a Rabbinic phenomenon and not found in the Tanach, where it is used to mean anyone who is appointed to a position of authority or purpose. It also doesn't say that the messiah would "die", but that he would be "cut off and not have it". It's not talking about the Messiah there, it's talking about either the High Priest or Agrippa, both of whom lost their positions at that time and never returned to it.

PruePhillip · Aug 27, 2019

IndigoChild5559 said:
He is not the messiah. He did not fulfill the things the messiah is to do.

What is this Messiah supposed to do? We are told in the Old Testament He must
do two things
1 - be the Redeemer
2 - be the King

The Redeemer, mentioned by Job, David, Isaiah and others is the One who must
suffer and die for the people - to be the sacrifice.
This means He must die first. Those who do not accept Him as Redeemer cannot
be His subjects when He reigns as King.

IndigoChild5559 · Aug 27, 2019

PruePhillip said:
What is this Messiah supposed to do? We are told in the Old Testament He must
do two things
1 - be the Redeemer
2 - be the King

The Redeemer, mentioned by Job, David, Isaiah and others is the One who must
suffer and die for the people - to be the sacrifice.
This means He must die first. Those who do not accept Him as Redeemer cannot
be His subjects when He reigns as King.

The Redeemer is God, not a man. The Messiah is a man, not God.

The Messiah does not have to die. There is nothing in Messianic prophecy about the Messiah dying. This is an example of Christians taking verses about other things, and falsely making them into prophecies.

Jesus was never a king. The whole time he was alive, other kings sat upon the throne of Judah in Jerusalem. Oh yeah, "He'l do it the time he comes" baloney. It's all or nothing, my friend.

There are way more than two things the Messiah is to do. I've listed them many many times, if not in this particular thread, at least throughout my tenure on this message board.

Spartan · Aug 27, 2019

Tumah said:
And of course that's a) not true and b) not a good argument, per the comment you have quoted.

You have not.

I stand by what I presented.

Tumah said:
Your question doesn't begin because your entire conception of Daniel 9 is wrong. For one thing, using "messiah" to specifically mean the Messiah is a Rabbinic phenomenon and not found in the Tanach, where it is used to mean anyone who is appointed to a position of authority or purpose. It also doesn't say that the messiah would "die", but that he would be "cut off and not have it". It's not talking about the Messiah there, it's talking about either the High Priest or Agrippa, both of whom lost their positions at that time and never returned to it.

Believe whatever you want. I don't share that interpretation.

PruePhillip · Aug 27, 2019

IndigoChild5559 said:
The Redeemer is God, not a man. The Messiah is a man, not God.

The Messiah does not have to die. There is nothing in Messianic prophecy about the Messiah dying. This is an example of Christians taking verses about other things, and falsely making them into prophecies.

Jesus was never a king. The whole time he was alive, other kings sat upon the throne of Judah in Jerusalem. Oh yeah, "He'l do it the time he comes" baloney. It's all or nothing, my friend.

There are way more than two things the Messiah is to do. I've listed them many many times, if not in this particular thread, at least throughout my tenure on this message board.

David saw a man - he came to us as a child, disbelieved upon by his own brothers and sisters.
his hands and feet pierced, tongue cleaved to his jaw, they gave him gall to drink, he was forsaken of
his God, his garments parted and David notes that this man shall die but "They shall come, and shall
declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this."
Who is David speaking of?

Jacob speaks of the rise of a Jewish nation and monarchy after Judah, and from this line shall come
the Messiah. That will be the end of the Jewish nation but the Gentiles will believe on him.
Who is Jacob speaking of?

Daniel says the Messiah will come to His temple while it still stands. But he shall be "cut off" but not
for himself but for His people.
Who is Daniel speaking of?

Isaiah speaks of He who shall be born, disbelieved upon by his own family, despised and rejected of
man, imprisoned and slaughtered like a lamb, who made his grave with the wicked, but who shall see
the results of his offering and be glad.
Who is Isaiah speaking of?

IndigoChild5559 · Aug 27, 2019

PruePhillip said:
David saw a man - he came to us as a child, disbelieved upon by his own brothers and sisters.
his hands and feet pierced, tongue cleaved to his jaw, they gave him gall to drink, he was forsaken of
his God, his garments parted and David notes that this man shall die but "They shall come, and shall
declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this."
Who is David speaking of?

Jacob speaks of the rise of a Jewish nation and monarchy after Judah, and from this line shall come
the Messiah. That will be the end of the Jewish nation but the Gentiles will believe on him.
Who is Jacob speaking of?

Daniel says the Messiah will come to His temple while it still stands. But he shall be "cut off" but not
for himself but for His people.
Who is Daniel speaking of?

Isaiah speaks of He who shall be born, disbelieved upon by his own family, despised and rejected of
man, imprisoned and slaughtered like a lamb, who made his grave with the wicked, but who shall see
the results of his offering and be glad.
Who is Isaiah speaking of?

David saw a man who hands and feet were pierced, ad nauseum? Where the heck are you getting this from??? Not the Tanakh!!! (OT)

Your other references are stuff taken out of context. They are examples of Christians taking verses that have nothing to do with the Messiah and making them into messianic prophesies. We run into this problem with you guys all the time. It's like the sacred texts are your rorschach ink blots. In some cases, Christians even mistranslate. Sheesh. No wonder we can't agree.

wizanda · Aug 27, 2019

Desert Snake said:
This would mean that your argument is saying, that 'Jesus is JHVH, [who shall save His people'.

Pretty sure that isn't what you're arguing.

Actually it is... Let's explain the Tanakh for you, as Jews don't care about learning from the Messiah anyway:

After doing some word searches with Esword Bible Software, using a KJV+ which allows us to search Strongs reference numbers, we get these results:

H3444 (Yeshua) + H1961 (To become) = Exodus 15:2, Psalms 118:14-21, Isaiah 12:2 (2 Samuel 10:11 David Vs Ammon) +5 Verses Isaiah
H3444 (Yeshua) + H7200 (To see) = Exodus 14:13, Psalms 98:3, Isaiah 52:10 (2 Chronicles 20:17 Jehoshaphat Vs Ammon)
H3091 (Yehoshua) + H1961 (To become) = Deuteronomy 31:23, Zechariah 3:3
H3091 (Yehoshua) + H7200 (To See) = Deuteronomy 3:28, Zechariah 3:1

To explain Yehoshua:

Moses explains that Yehoshua (Lord saves), who had his name changed from Hosea (Saviour) shall lead our people into the promised land.
Then Yehoshua son of Yehozedek led our people back from the Babylonian exile, and becomes a symbolic Branch of the Kingship of David.
Then Yehoshua son of Joseph cut off our people for paying 30 pieces of silver for him, and shall remove the false gods, which include these 'Fakes' soon.

Next Yeshua:

So Moses sees the Salvation of God separate the Red Sea in Exodus 14:3, and Exodus the Lord says "I shall become your Salvation (Yeshua)".
In Psalms 118 the Lord says he will become our Salvation, and the Chief Corner Stone that the Builders (Jews) will reject.
When David fought the Children of Ammon, he was told if they're too strong, the Lord will become our Salvation; thus when Jehoshaphat fought Ammon, the Lord literally fought, and scared other nations.
This same poetic song is continued by Isaiah 12:2 that the Lord becomes our Salvation.
So when David is told in Psalm 89:19-21 (which is paraphrased in Isaiah 52:13-14) that he shall be made into the Messiah a holy vessel of the Lord; he is also told his own people will murder him, and that he will suffer many things before the Messianic Age.
In Isaiah 52:10-15 David has the spirit of Yeshuat Eloheinu (Salvation from God) put into a human sanctified vessel, which is then the Messiah's symbolic name as well of Yehoshua/Yeshua.

Yahavah Elohim means the Divine Creator Being, he is the creator of our reality, everything exists because it makes it happen... So reality has to come from it, anything else is atheistic.

The Source of our reality is the God Most High (El Elyon) and Yeshua & Yahavah Elohim are Divine aspects of that one Source...

Same theology existed in many ancient cultures before it was muddled up, and according to the Curse of Moses these 'Fakes' who have done so will soon be removed into the Lake of Fire (Deuteronomy 29:19-27).

In my opinion.

Tumah · Aug 27, 2019

Spartan said:
I stand by what I presented.

That's pretty stubborn (some might say foolish, but I'm not going to say that) of you, to stand by demonstrably false claims.

Believe whatever you want. I don't share that interpretation.

There's that piercingly intelligent argument we've come to expect from you, the venerable Dr. Brown and the NT.
I am blown away by the way you've clearly proven that what it says is not what it means.

wizanda · Aug 27, 2019

IndigoChild5559 said:
Obviously Jesus himself believed he was the messiah.

Yeshua said he 'shall be' the Messiah, like deal with context and the Bible, and it makes more sense then making it up.

It is the fake Pharisees John, Paul, and Simon the stone (petros), who made up 'he was' the Messiah.

Yeshua said it is not his time, and it was to come at the Messianic Age, which the Tanakh already stated...

First the messiah comes to cut off the 'Fake Jews' (Zechariah 11), bring in those who are the Children of God 'Israel', place the Curse of Moses (Deuteronomy 28); then at his return we have the Lake of Fire first (Deuteronomy 29:19-27) where the whole of mankind will be washed in it, and after those who remain will be brought into the Promised Land (Deuteronomy 30:1-7), where everyone will then know God.

Currently this proves some people are atheistic by their rejection that God did all of this, as everything in reality comes from God (El = Source); so to deny God didn't do it proves the case.

In my opinion.

Tumah · Aug 27, 2019

PruePhillip said:
David saw a man - he came to us as a child, disbelieved upon by his own brothers and sisters.
his hands and feet pierced, tongue cleaved to his jaw, they gave him gall to drink, he was forsaken of
his God, his garments parted and David notes that this man shall die but "They shall come, and shall
declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this."
Who is David speaking of?

He's is speaking about G-d. The whole Psalm is in praise of G-d. In these last few verses, he's saying that each generation will tell the subsequent generation about the things G-d had done.

Jacob speaks of the rise of a Jewish nation and monarchy after Judah, and from this line shall come
the Messiah. That will be the end of the Jewish nation but the Gentiles will believe on him.
Who is Jacob speaking of?

Jacob was speaking about the Messiah, but he did not say anything about the end of the Jewish nation or anything about Gentiles.

Daniel says the Messiah will come to His temple while it still stands. But he shall be "cut off" but not
for himself but for His people.
Who is Daniel speaking of?

Daniel was not talking about the Messiah, but about either the High Priest or Agrippa who lost their positions at that time. It doesn't say "not for himself but for his people". It says "There is not to him" - which is the Hebrew way of saying someone doesn't have something such as Num. 27:4 'because there is not to him a son'. Both of these people were removed from their positions and they never held them again.

Isaiah speaks of He who shall be born, disbelieved upon by his own family, despised and rejected of
man, imprisoned and slaughtered like a lamb, who made his grave with the wicked, but who shall see
the results of his offering and be glad.
Who is Isaiah speaking of?

Isaiah is speaking of Israel. The first three quarters of the chapter is a continuation of the end of the previous chapter where the Gentile leaders of the Messianic era contemplate their treatment of Israel over the previous Exile.

wizanda · Aug 27, 2019

InChrist said:
I believe they will recognize Him at His second coming....

I'm sitting here telling you I'm back, with clear evidence across religious scriptures globally to show it, and none of you listen properly...

So like Revelation 3:3, Revelation 16:15-16 we come to argue with the 'Synagogue of Satan who claim to be Jews yet are not', with the words of our mouth as a thief before the battle of Armageddon.

Revelation 3:9-12 Behold, I give some of the synagogue of Satan, of those who say they are Jews, and they are not, but lie. Behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. (10) Because you kept my command to endure, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, which is to come on the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (11) I am coming quickly! Hold firmly that which you have, so that no one takes your crown. (12) He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar (Sandalphon) in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God (Zion - Psalms 146:10, Psalms 147:12, Isaiah 52:7), the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name (Sananda).

Just to be clear there are two logical options here, you could help us fix global religion or mankind will soon be over, and then we keep the saints, where most of you are not included.

In my opinion.

Tumah · Aug 27, 2019

wizanda said:
I'm sitting here telling you I'm back, with clear evidence across religious scriptures globally to show it, and none of you listen properly...

If it makes you feel any better, I believe you share many similarities with Jesus.

wizanda · Aug 27, 2019

Tumah said:
When he fulfills all the Messianic prophecies, when the world has reached the Messianic Age, we'll know he's the one. It will be clear that he is the one. Until that point, he's not it.

Yes, and since you don't accept the Tanakh, and the Testimony of the Lord (Synoptic Gospels) - neither do you qualify as being worthy to be in that age...

It clearly states only those who accept the 'Marvellous Work' of the Lord are welcome (Zechariah 8:6-8), the rest are to be removed before it (Deuteronomy 29:19-27).

In my opinion.

PruePhillip · Aug 27, 2019

IndigoChild5559 said:
David saw a man who hands and feet were pierced, ad nauseum? Where the heck are you getting this from??? Not the Tanakh!!! (OT)

Your other references are stuff taken out of context. They are examples of Christians taking verses that have nothing to do with the Messiah and making them into messianic prophesies. We run into this problem with you guys all the time. It's like the sacred texts are your rorschach ink blots. In some cases, Christians even mistranslate. Sheesh. No wonder we can't agree.

Without looking this up (sorry if I am wrong) but David speaks of the Messiah in Psalms 22 and 69.
Job speaks of his Messiah as the "Redeemer" and that He now exists but one day shall stand upon
the earth as a man. He will "redeem", that is, pay the price for our sin.

PruePhillip · Aug 27, 2019

Tumah said:
He's is speaking about G-d. The whole Psalm is in praise of G-d. In these last few verses, he's saying that each generation will tell the subsequent generation about the things G-d had done.

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" says God as he sees his ribs sticking out.

IndigoChild5559 · Aug 27, 2019

PruePhillip said:
Without looking this up (sorry if I am wrong) but David speaks of the Messiah in Psalms 22 and 69.
Job speaks of his Messiah as the "Redeemer" and that He now exists but one day shall stand upon
the earth as a man. He will "redeem", that is, pay the price for our sin.

David doesn't speak of the messiah at all in psalms 22.

Job doesn't speak of the Messiah either.

PruePhillip · Aug 27, 2019

Tumah said:
Jacob was speaking about the Messiah, but he did not say anything about the end of the Jewish nation or anything about Gentiles.

Read it carefully and thoughtfully. Jacob is telling Judah that from him shall come a line
of kings. That infers a nation as you can't have a monarchy without the claim to a nation.
And there's the law under his protection.
UNTIL the Messiah comes.
Until, meaning, an end to the Monarchy and the Law.
And in Him shall the Gentiles trust.

Thus, no more Jewish law, monarchy and nation, and someone in whom the Gentiles,
rather than the Jew, now trust.

wizanda · Aug 27, 2019

Tumah said:
If it makes you feel any better, I believe you share many similarities with Jesus.

Please don't insult me: J+Sus (H5580 is a Grub or Beast)... Which will soon be removed at Judgement Day (Isaiah 51:8).

Our name David/Yehoshua/Zion is sanctified, turning our name into an insult is beyond a joke when I'm sitting here explaining you've done that.

Agree our teachings, understanding, and promises God has told us are the same; as God informed all of us, that Judah would reject all of it in advance, and thus lead many astray - so thank you for doing a great job.

In my opinion.

Tumah · Aug 27, 2019

PruePhillip said:
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" says God as he sees his ribs sticking out.

I'm sorry. The first half of the Psalm is David supplicating G-d and the second half is David praising G-d. It's David who is speaking.

Desert Snake · Aug 27, 2019

wizanda said:
Actually it is... Let's explain the Tanakh for you, as Jews don't care about learning from the Messiah anyway:

After doing some word searches with Esword Bible Software, using a KJV+ which allows us to search Strongs reference numbers, we get these results:

H3444 (Yeshua) + H1961 (To become) = Exodus 15:2, Psalms 118:14-21, Isaiah 12:2 (2 Samuel 10:11 David Vs Ammon) +5 Verses Isaiah

H3444 (Yeshua) + H7200 (To see) = Exodus 14:13, Psalms 98:3, Isaiah 52:10 (2 Chronicles 20:17 Jehoshaphat Vs Ammon)

H3091 (Yehoshua) + H1961 (To become) = Deuteronomy 31:23, Zechariah 3:3

H3091 (Yehoshua) + H7200 (To See) = Deuteronomy 3:28, Zechariah 3:1

To explain Yehoshua:

Moses explains that Yehoshua (Lord saves), who had his name changed from Hosea (Saviour) shall lead our people into the promised land.

Then Yehoshua son of Yehozedek led our people back from the Babylonian exile, and becomes a symbolic Branch of the Kingship of David.

Then Yehoshua son of Joseph cut off our people for paying 30 pieces of silver for him, and shall remove the false gods, which include these 'Fakes' soon.

Next Yeshua:

So Moses sees the Salvation of God separate the Red Sea in Exodus 14:3, and Exodus the Lord says "I shall become your Salvation (Yeshua)".

In Psalms 118 the Lord says he will become our Salvation, and the Chief Corner Stone that the Builders (Jews) will reject.

When David fought the Children of Ammon, he was told if they're too strong, the Lord will become our Salvation; thus when Jehoshaphat fought Ammon, the Lord literally fought, and scared other nations.

This same poetic song is continued by Isaiah 12:2 that the Lord becomes our Salvation.

So when David is told in Psalm 89:19-21 (which is paraphrased in Isaiah 52:13-14) that he shall be made into the Messiah a holy vessel of the Lord; he is also told his own people will murder him, and that he will suffer many things before the Messianic Age.

In Isaiah 52:10-15 David has the spirit of Yeshuat Eloheinu (Salvation from God) put into a human sanctified vessel, which is then the Messiah's symbolic name as well of Yehoshua/Yeshua.

Yahavah Elohim means the Divine Creator Being, he is the creator of our reality, everything exists because it makes it happen... So reality has to come from it, anything else is atheistic.

The Source of our reality is the God Most High (El Elyon) and Yeshua & Yahavah Elohim are Divine aspects of that one Source...

Same theology existed in many ancient cultures before it was muddled up, and according to the Curse of Moses these 'Fakes' who have done so will soon be removed into the Lake of Fire (Deuteronomy 29:19-27).

In my opinion.

Matthew 22:37-46
'Why does David call me Lord', is what Jesus says. So, we note that correlating David to Jesus , does not really make sense.

Mark 9:2-3
Matthew 4:3-4

In other words, Jesus isn't the same as David, and Yeshua, says 'no, you are mistaken,' to their presumption that Yeshua is claiming kingship via right of Israels Judah pre'eminence.

In Acts of the Apostles, you get the context of a more literal perspective, at least from Stephen.
•
This brings us to your idea of Judah is cursed, which isn't the perspective that is in Acts. So why not? Stephen didn't seem to say that Judah was cursed.

You'll need to explain that Judah is cursed, idea, for this to really make sense.

Why did the Jews reject their Messiah when he DID come?

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