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Why did the Jews reject their Messiah when he DID come?

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
I don't know. Will this one also be an abject failure lacking the proper characteristics, traits and behaviors to qualify him? If so, I'll reject him also.

Supposing this one, for instance comes to fulfill all of the mission of the Messiah.

Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah

In the Shemoneh Esrei prayer, recited three times daily, we pray for all of the elements of the coming of the mashiach: (1) ingathering of the exiles; (2) restoration of the religious courts of justice; (3) an end of wickedness, sin and heresy; (4) reward to the righteous; (5) rebuilding of Jerusalem; (5) restoration of the line of King David; and (6) restoration of Temple service.

The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.

But supposing despite this, you didn't want to do some of the things demanded of you. Suppose for instance, you don't much care for secular Jews entering Jerusalem. Or suppose him being a great judge, you do not like his judgements? Would you think of an excuse why this wasn't the Messiah?

Let's give a theoretical. Donald Trump is a political leader, has ties with Judaism (I think his wife is Jewish), is charismatic, and a military leader. He probably knows some Jewish law. He has even tried to establish Jerusalem as capital of Israel. And he is definitely human. Yet suppose you disagree with his politics, being a liberal socialist, or maybe convinced that a Messiah ought to have more of a Jewish bloodline. Despite what he does for Israel, despite that God chooses, and not us humans (see David's own selection as to how that works), would you not reject him soundly as Messiah because we do not think him born under the Jewish line of David, and because he is not Jewish? It's possible that even if a man like this does everything he can to restore the Temple, to rebuild Jerusalem, we'd focus on how we don't think he's the son of David. Well yeah, but David himself was chosen by God from what looked like much more worthy candidates. It's possible that one called "his son" is not actually at all blood-related, but in the same way elected by God.

Suppose I told you in advance that I was going to give you a present. And you believe from what you know of me (practically nothing) that I'm going to give you a pony. I said nothing of the sort, only a bunch of vague hints like "it's gonna be huge" and "I hope you will enjoy using it." So you unwrap this huge package, and find instead a treehouse. Will you say, "Well, this is a cool gift, I bet Samantha spent loads of money setting this up"? Or do you say, "There's gotta be a pony in there somewhere!"

Jesus tells a parable of a man who invites people to a party, and they all have excuses not to come. So he says, invite people from the street to come instead. Bottom line of what happened with Jesus. He wasn't what they were looking for, having a vision of a king, a ruler. So they made excuses why they couldn't follow him. So he picked people with no connection at all to God's chosen people.

If the Messiah comes to rule, will you find a similar excuse because he is outside your perfectly constructed norm? Because he doesn't look like Eliab, or Abinadab, or Shammah, or any of the main seven?
 
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rosends

Well-Known Member
Supposing this one, for instance comes to fulfill all of the mission of the Messiah.

Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah





But supposing despite this, you didn't want to do some of the things demanded of you. Suppose for instance, you don't much care for secular Jews entering Jerusalem. Or suppose him being a great judge, you do not like his judgements? Would you think of an excuse why this wasn't the Messiah?

Let's give a theoretical. Donald Trump is a political leader, has ties with Judaism (I think his wife is Jewish), is charismatic, and a military leader. He probably knows some Jewish law. He has even tried to establish Jerusalem as capital of Israel. And he is definitely human. Yet suppose you disagree with his politics, being a liberal socialist, or maybe convinced that a Messiah ought to have more of a Jewish bloodline. Despite what he does for Israel, despite that God chooses, and not us humans (see David's own selection as to how that works), would you not reject him soundly as Messiah because we do not think him born under the Jewish line of David, and because he is not Jewish? It's possible that even if a man like this does everything he can to restore the Temple, to rebuild Jerusalem, we'd focus on how we don't think he's the son of David. Well yeah, but David himself was chosen by God from what looked like much more worthy candidates. It's possible that one called "his son" is not actually at all blood-related, but in the same way elected by God.

Suppose I told you in advance that I was going to give you a present. And you believe from what you know of me (practically nothing) that I'm going to give you a pony. I said nothing of the sort, only a bunch of vague hints like "it's gonna be huge" and "I hope you will enjoy using it." So you unwrap this huge package, and find instead a treehouse. Will you say, "Well, this is a cool gift, I bet Samantha spent loads of money setting this up"? Or do you say, "There's gotta be a pony in there somewhere!"

Jesus tells a parable of a man who invites people to a party, and they all have excuses not to come. So he says, invite people from the street to come instead. Bottom line of what happened with Jesus. He wasn't what they were looking for, having a vision of a king, a ruler. So they made excuses why they couldn't follow him. So he picked people with no connection at all to God's chosen people.

If the Messiah comes to rule, will you find a similar excuse because he is outside your perfectly constructed norm? Because he doesn't look like Eliab, or Abinadab, or Shammah, or any of the main seven?
That you ask this hypothetical shows that you don't understand the Jewish concept of the Messiah.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Your description of the fulfillment of prophesies is the standard Christian belief, but it remains subjective, and Jews have a distinctly different understanding of the same prophesies, based on excellent knowledge of Hebrew, and the traditions of Judaism.

I am not supporting the Jewish perspective necessarily, but like the different religions the claim my way is true and the rest false is far to common and unrealistic from the human perspective for any religion to have the only true interpretation of ancient scripture and prophecies

Reads in The Acts that a "great company of the priests were obedient to the faith"
Also, the tens of thousands of people who pressed against Jesus were mostly
Jews. These crowds protected Jesus from attempted arrest.
So yes, this was a Jewish thing.
Some got it, some didn't.

If you read the Gospels you see that the "veil of the temple was torn top to bottom."
That was a massively thick, heavy curtain.
These things either happened, or they didn't.
If they didn't happen then it's all a moot point.

But many prophecies point to the Jewish rejection of the Messiah and the loss of
their nation. Not sure how traditional Jews today come to terms with this.
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
Thanks, but I'm worried about my IQ being lowered if I were to see any more of those things he calls "answers". I understand where he's coming from, I do. He's talking to Christians who are already maybe not that intelligent for having decided to believe in the NT despite it's terrible argumentation to begin with. So his arguments don't need to be that great and could afford to have a little smudging of facts. But as a Jew, I'd rather keep my mind sharp.

Tell you what, then - give me Singer's best ONE (1 - just ONE) scriptural example from the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) that he claims is bogus. Cite the scripture with an explanation why it's wrong. I'd like to see it. Then we'll see who has the sharp mind. :)
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
That you ask this hypothetical shows that you don't understand the Jewish concept of the Messiah.

And if you answer a question without providing any context as to how it's wrong, I'm gonna say you don't either.

I understand enough of Jews from Fiddler on the Roof to understand that outsiders holding a key place in their prophecy is anathema to them. They build walls to split their cities into sacred and profane, Jew and outsider. But I know enough of Hod to know that he doesn't operate 100% like his followers. That he doesn't choose people as they would expect. Was Moses the best person for the job? Uhhh well, he was a murderer and he was slow of speech. Samson basically hung around Philistines (making him by all accounts a traitor) and he broke basically all his Nazirite vows. God has a long, long history of using flawef ppl to preach to a broken world.

You'd be quick, I imagine, to dismiss the guy I picked in the scenario. But maybe you should read about Cyrus in Isaiah 45. Despite not being a Jew, he was an ally of the Jews, and helped them achieve many of their goals.

Making sense of evangelicals' support for Trump | Michael Massing

Jesus repeatedly says that the kingdom will come as a thief in the night, using a bridegroom and maids with lanterns in many cases. That is to say, even if we reject Jesus, he has a point of God not doing what people think he should do, or when they think he should. God took my grandpa when we were in the start of a vacation (BEST EVER BTW, THANKS). And God told Jonah to go to Ninevah, which he hated to preach repentance. Jonah knew that God shows no partiality, and he knew they would repent. And he hated that even more, so he sat like a lump under a tree, until God caused it to dry up! I'm sure you remember the punchline of this story as well as I. God cared what happened to this non-Jew city that Jonah loathed, and even about its cattle.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
And if you answer a question without providing any context as to how it's wrong, I'm gonna say you don't either.
I don't have to provide context. It isn't my job to teach you. The hypothetical you presented was impossible on its face and is all the proof anyone who understands the concepts needs.

I understand enough of Jews from Fiddler on the Roof to understand that outsiders holding a key place in their prophecy is anathema to them.
I just need to take a moment to finish laughing at the stupidity of your claiming to learn about Jews by watching Fiddler. Was this the play or the movie? I mean, if you are going to learn about a complex and ancient religion, I would think you would do so from a play, right?
They build walls to split their cities into sacred and profane, Jew and outsider.
Yeah...no.
But I know enough of Hod to know that he doesn't operate 100% like his followers.
You know the Hods? They live right near me. I didn't see you at the aufruf this past Shabbos.
That he doesn't choose people as they would expect. Was Moses the best person for the job? Uhhh well, he was a murderer and he was slow of speech. Samson basically hung around Philistines (making him by all accounts a traitor) and he broke basically all his Nazirite vows. God has a long, long history of using flawef ppl to preach to a broken world.
What are you even talking about? Moses wasn't a murderer. He had a speech issue but God chose him anyway because that was part of the lesson. God uses the right person to get to the right end. You don't have to like it, but your reaction just means that you don't understand the point.
You'd be quick, I imagine, to dismiss the guy I picked in the scenario. But maybe you should read about Cyrus in Isaiah 45. Despite not being a Jew, he was an ally of the Jews, and helped them achieve many of their goals.
What does being a Jew have to do with anything? An Arab cab driver helped me out when I was 13.
Jesus repeatedly says that the kingdom will come as a thief in the night, using a bridegroom and maids with lanterns in many cases.
Um, who cares?
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
@wizanda
We have context, here.
Matthew 1:20-24
'Because He shall save His people'.


This would mean that your argument is saying, that 'Jesus is JHVH, [who shall save His people'.

Pretty sure that isn't what you're arguing.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
Did they not recognize Him as earlier prophesied in the OT?

Christians consider Him as Lord, Jesus Christ.

Maybe the Jews will finally get it on His second coming?
You seem to know a lot about the Bible, can you explain this verse to me please?

"No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me..." Jeremiah 31:34
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
The mindset that rejects Jesus the Messiah, is similar or the same one that rebelled against God in the Torah, and the same one that persecuted and killed the prophets.

"You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him—" - Stephen, Acts chapter 7
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Reads in The Acts that a "great company of the priests were obedient to the faith"
Also, the tens of thousands of people who pressed against Jesus were mostly
Jews. These crowds protected Jesus from attempted arrest.
So yes, this was a Jewish thing.
Some got it, some didn't.

If you read the Gospels you see that the "veil of the temple was torn top to bottom."
That was a massively thick, heavy curtain.
These things either happened, or they didn't.
If they didn't happen then it's all a moot point.

But many prophecies point to the Jewish rejection of the Messiah and the loss of
their nation. Not sure how traditional Jews today come to terms with this.

Actually, base don the Hebrew perspective of the Torah and Tanakh, easy.
 

LoisD

New Member
Did they not recognize Him as earlier prophesied in the OT?

Christians consider Him as Lord, Jesus Christ.

Maybe the Jews will finally get it on His second coming?
They were expecting a leader to save them from the Roman
rule. He was a baby, born into family of a Carpenter, later a
wandering teacher. He didn’t fit their profile of Messiah.
 
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