Are Veterans Better Than The Rest Of Us?

Dan From Smithville said:

Even many of those have to go through training and can be exposed to activities that are high risk. Even a perceived low risk job can be carried out in a high risk environment too. But I agree, there are low risk jobs in the military that are carried out in very low risk environments.

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This is why it pays to examine the statistics of workplace injury.

Dan From Smithville said:

I do agree with you. Having never served and not experienced combat, I cannot know what that is like. I admit it. It is not something I can even imagine and come close to what must be a terrible reality. It is not something I can change either. But does it make me less of a person for lacking the experience? I have never saved a life on the operating table either, though I am thankful for doctors who do. I suppose, in your view, I must not be very special at all.

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Dan From Smithville said:

I grew up with a WWII vet that spent four years sucking fumes in the bowels of a fleet oiler or on deck shooting at planes that were trying to kill him. Later he served in the Marines during Korea where he suffered head injuries that he had to deal with for the rest of his life. Near the end, he only had about 30% of his lung capacity that I think was the result of breathing those fumes and maybe asbestos in those old ships. We all experienced his condition while he was alive. I grew up with nothing but respect for the military. I still have it. That man had special status to me, but was he better than someone that did not serve, just for his service? I do not think he would have said so, even though he was very proud to have served.

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I will address these two posts. Firstly, thank you for your honesty and for sharing your own personal memories. Most combat veterans would never wish for anyone to go through the hell that they've gone through. Most combat veterans are not looking for any respect from anyone. They are only looking to forget the horrors they've experienced. After what many combat veterans have gone through, your uninformed opinions do not even warrant their notice. We are talking about the kind of self-sacrifice, that soldiers choose willingly to participate in. And, their willingness to risk their own personal safety and life, for the ideological beliefs of service before self. This self-sacrifice is clearly worthy of respect. As a veteran today, I certainly feel that I was betrayed and my beliefs manipulated. I was not being used to protect against any threat to our way of life, but only to the threats that could threaten Corporate America's bottom line.

Does anyone here think that ANY country would attack the USA? Why does America have more than 800 military bases in over 70 countries? The US Has Military Bases in 80 Countries. All of Them Must Close. Why? Like Tulsi Gabbard says, "Why are they there?" Does anyone even question why the US does not allow any foreign power to have its military bases on American soil or territories?

I just don't understand why you and your friend, must make false assumptions, to justify your false conclusion? Who is saying that Veterans think that they are better(whatever that means) than those that have never served? No one. Who is questioning your worth as a person, because you did not serve in the military. No one. Who is questioning what you, or anyone else, would do if they came face to face with death? No one. These claims only reflect, disinformation, personal projecting, and paranoid insecurity. I still haven't seen any evidence to support any of these claims.

What is your goal here? What is your objective? What is it that you want people to think about Veterans?

Dan From Smithville said:

What role does supply and demand play in this? On rare occasions I have found myself defending positions that I do not particularly agree with, but found the opposing viewpoint so extreme that it warranted a counterpoint. The high salaries of professional sports figures was one such instance. Much like actors, it is my view that they receive salaries well out of proportion to what they contribute. This is not the same as saying they are not highly skilled and very talented and successful at their jobs. However, there is a demand for those figures and in meeting the demand, there is an economic struggle to get the best performing--sometimes just the most popular--members of that group. The pro sports athlete is not at fault for having abilities that someone is willing to pay a lot to see in action. I found myself arguing that there is a market for their skills. There is a demand for players that outperform and this demand drives up the price to get them to perform. Higher performers can ask for more money and receive it. In the context of the conditions, they are getting paid what others percieve they are worth.

I think an important question for me that came out of taking the pro position, regards whether any such job is deserving of disproportionately large compensation in light of the fact that the contribution largely amounts to entertainment value?

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Yes, sports figures and entertainers are another example, although there was once a time when they weren't particularly valued much and weren't paid that well. But unlike many other occupations, their value can be directly shown and proven in terms of album sales, ticket sales, etc.

On the other hand, the world's greatest gymnast might make a pittance compared to a relatively mediocre pro baseball player. That's because more people will line up to pay to see an MLB game than a gymnastics meet (unless it's the Olympics).

Revoltingest said:

Are Veterans Better Than The Rest Of Us?

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They're probably better at ending their service in the army than most of us, me included.

Truly Enlightened said:

So you are saying that compared to lawn keepers, loggers, fishermen, etc., you have no more, nor less respect for any of the soldiers that have been injured, disabled, or killed, trying to protect our freedoms, and the ideals supporting our way of life?

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Yes, generally.
This is because I judge them as individuals rather than as members of a group.

The question was not about judging the individual(mischaracterization). The question was specifically about your level of respect for those soldiers who have sacrificed their body and life, defending the same ideals that we all hold true. I take your failure to commit either way, as a none answer. I suppose it's better than admitting, just how you really feel.

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The question is the one I posed in the OP.
Yours is significantly altered.

So, do you pay any attention to the truth, or is it only your opinions that matter?

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Do you believe that you have the truth,
& that I have only opinions?

Here's so more truths that you can also ignore.

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Before we address your many following points,
I ask that you reconsider the above underlined sentence.
Ask yourself....
Do I sound angry?
Does this prejudge another's response?
Am I here to converse, or just to win an argument?

Stevicus said:

Yes, sports figures and entertainers are another example, although there was once a time when they weren't particularly valued much and weren't paid that well. But unlike many other occupations, their value can be directly shown and proven in terms of album sales, ticket sales, etc.

On the other hand, the world's greatest gymnast might make a pittance compared to a relatively mediocre pro baseball player. That's because more people will line up to pay to see an MLB game than a gymnastics meet (unless it's the Olympics).

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And those entertainers are often revered like they were holy. Look how much their opinions matter. If one of them decides that vaccines cause autism, then entire groups of people stop getting vaccines for their children. All based on the emotions of an entertainer that may or may not have been able to pass basic science in high school.

Quagmire said:

Sure, there can be any number of incentives, but you have to weigh them all against "I could get shot" (not to mention the other stuff i n my last post).

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As Revoltingest pointed out, soldiering is hardly the most dangerous job around, and even in the military, not everyone is an infantryman in a war zone. A convenience store or gas station clerk has to weigh the odds of getting shot as well -- with considerably fewer perks.

Truly Enlightened said:

I will address these two posts. Firstly, thank you for your honesty and for sharing your own personal memories. Most combat veterans would never wish for anyone to go through the hell that they've gone through. Most combat veterans are not looking for any respect from anyone. They are only looking to forget the horrors they've experienced. After what many combat veterans have gone through, your uninformed opinions do not even warrant their notice. We are talking about the kind of self-sacrifice, that soldiers choose willingly to participate in. And, their willingness to risk their own personal safety and life, for the ideological beliefs of service before self. This self-sacrifice is clearly worthy of respect. As a veteran today, I certainly feel that I was betrayed and my beliefs manipulated. I was not being used to protect against any threat to our way of life, but only to the threats that could threaten Corporate America's bottom line.

Does anyone here think that ANY country would attack the USA? Why does America have more than 800 military bases in over 70 countries? The US Has Military Bases in 80 Countries. All of Them Must Close. Why? Like Tulsi Gabbard says, "Why are they there?" Does anyone even question why the US does not allow any foreign power to have its military bases on American soil or territories?

I just don't understand why you and your friend, must make false assumptions, to justify your false conclusion? Who is saying that Veterans think that they are better(whatever that means) than those that have never served? No one. Who is questioning your worth as a person, because you did not serve in the military. No one. Who is questioning what you, or anyone else, would do if they came face to face with death? No one. These claims only reflect, disinformation, personal projecting, and paranoid insecurity. I still haven't seen any evidence to support any of these claims.

What is your goal here? What is your objective? What is it that you want people to think about Veterans?

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I would like to take the time to address this more fully, but I do not have that at the moment. I believe I have stated my interests in posting here. They are not the interests you seem to believe I have for posting here. You seem to be equating me with a group that I am not part of. I am not against the military or military service. I am not sure how many times I will have to repeat that, but it will be true every time. I do not think that asking questions about something automatically places that person against what they are asking questions about. I see parallels here with other things I have had questions about. If I ask how viewing the Bible as infallible is not deifying the Bible, I am not a "true" Christian to many. Asking questions about anything held sacred always paints the person asking as some sort of heretic. Perhaps this is worthy of a thread of its own.

I respect the fact that you and others have served. But this is not about what a person has done or why, but rather it is about how a group of people consider themselves based on what they have done in comparison to those that have not. Or how they are perceived for what they have done. These questions apply to to other groups.

Whether you realize it or not, you are applying a status to those that are not part of your group.

Dan From Smithville said:

Why does it become irrelevant? I am aware of the role of the military, but how does that differentiate members of the service from other, equally dangerous professions? I can see a difference for those that chose service over those that were conscripted. There is a difference in choice.

I have come to respect his opinion, just as I have come to respect yours. That does not mean that I will agree with it on the broader or, more often, the finite levels. But there are differences in how people are treated based on their status of military service. Whether this is an expectation by them or something that others thrust on them, may make a difference, but it exists. The group that has a long family history of service and personal and direct relationship with those that served and respect for them. That would be the group I align myself with. I thought it would have been obvious from the details I have mentioned.

Actually, these were all questions and not straw man arguments. I made no claims. The questions arise from observations that are related to the questions. I am not nor have I ever said that soldiers do not deserve benefits for having suffered injuries due to their service. I am an indirect and very appreciative recipient of some of those benefits.
Now you just said that I am not special and without any knowledge of what I have or have not done to put myself in harms way for myself or anyone else. Only that I have never served and thus not had the opportunity to do it in that context. At this point you have no idea if I have put myself in the way of some harm or any circumstance around that if I have. The implication seems to be that I would have a special place if I had served. By the way, I have put myself in harms way for others. I received thanks and no further recognition for it. You are correct. I am not special. I did what needed to be done and I did it without thinking about it at the time.

When I was two and too small to remember, I am told that before going back to the VA hospital, my father had an episode where he marched the entire family outside and ordered us stationed around the house in case an enemy patrol was in the area. He and my mother both told us younger kids about this episode when we were older, and how she got him to come to his senses and go back for treatment. My older siblings never mentioned it. No further incidence like that occurred during my childhood and my father was quite embarrassed about it, but thought it was something we should know.
Why would you say that? Running away is always an option and even in battle some have been known to take it. You are assuming special status again. That those that serve will respond only honorably and those that have not are lesser for it.
You seem to be providing my perspective for me. It is true. I chose not to serve after spending two years considering the idea and going through introductory training and education that would have prepared me for it. When I started college, I mentioned to my dad that they had an ROTC program and I was interested. He told me that if I were to join, he thought going in as an officer was the way to do it. In his opinion, officers had it better and he thought I could do it if I wanted. After two years, I decided for myself that it was not a career I wanted to pursue. My choice. I am not less of a person for having chose that, though, from what I am reading here, perhaps some might consider me so for it.
I think I have empathy enough and at a very high level.
​

You brought it up. These were your words. "Anyone who is willing to make the ultimate sacrifice to protect your infrastructure and commerce, is the real patriot". If you do not understand it, you can understand why I did not.

Here is a little history about me so that you can have some information to make claims about me. My family has served this country for over 200 years. I have ancestors and relatives that have served in every major conflict and war since and including the Revolution. I am a 7X great grandson of John Hart, signer of the Declaration of Independence from New Jersey. I am an 8X great grandson of Daniel Boone. Both noteworthy in their service to this country in different capacities. I have had three uncles that served in WWII in the Army and survived. One uncle that served in the Army during Korea, but saw only limited combat and was not injured. One brother served in the Navy. One nephew now serving in the Navy. One brother that served in the Coast Guard. One brother that retired after 20 years in the Air Force. One brother that served in the Army Honor Guard Company. I chose not to serve, because I did not find it compatible with my aspirations and not, because I am a coward that would run from a fight and need to be protected. Considering all this, should my family believe they are better than other families that do not have this history? Are we special?

I mention all of this, since you seem to have applied a status to me and I wanted you to have some actual information for your decision. I think these questions are asked to understand things that go beyond deserved and earned respect and they also cover status that is thrust at people also under no effort of their own. You might even say, though it would be untrue, that I am thrusting special status at myself for being a member of a family that respects, promotes and engages in service. I have seen people do that.

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The draft ended in Dec. '72. So choice has not been relevant for almost 45 years, in an all-voluntary military. My comments were only to illustrate, that it did not matter what your reasons for joining were. After basic training and AIT, your indoctrination into the military way of thinking and behaving, will almost be complete. If, like me, you are shipped off to fight in a foreign country, then this indoctrination is accelerated. Individuality is not a conducive human quality in military service. However, individuality is certainly an admirable attribute in most civilian jobs. So, it is irrelevant, because the thoughts and beliefs you had before you joined, will not be the same thoughts and beliefs when you leave.

Since you are tacitly agreeing with the OP, by your lack of protest, disagreement, and defence, I can only assume like him , that you have never served one day in the military. Also, because, like him, you are ignoring the fact that these special benefits and privileges are only for severely handicapped, disabled, handicapped, blind, and comatose veterans. Also, because, like him, you are ignoring the fact that normal healthy veterans have all the same rights and privileges that anyone else has. Also, like him, you are ignoring that civilians have all the same types of benefits and privileges as veterans do. Finally, if you were a veteran, the direction of your argument would certainly be different. You either agree with the poster or you disagree. And, you certainly agree. Do you think that a veteran working as a lumberjack should be respected more as a lumberjack, or as a veteran? Don't you see the silly slippery slope that this can lead to? We should all respect our veterans, because they were willing to put themselves in harms way, to protect our way of life. This does not mean that civilians are NOT willing to put themselves in harms way. If your pride is somehow threatened by their service, then that is your own insecurity. But, don't conflate their level of service, loyalty and level of self-sacrifice, with that of a lumberjack, a farmer, or a groundskeeper. It is a non sequitur.

Dan. We are all special and unique as human beings. But because of compartmentalization, and the battle between our herding instincts and our individuality, we are far from perfect. We are complex bio-organisms, with an emergent consciousness. This means we are emotionally, socially, and mentally flawed from the git go. So, I am more interested in the intangible qualities of people. These emergent qualities CAN'T be changed. It is how people behave outside of their comfort zone, that can determine their true nature. Running away in battle was meant figuratively. Running away in battle would be far worse than dying in battle. Therefore, running away is not an option.

"Anyone who is willing to make the ultimate sacrifice to protect your infrastructure and commerce, is the real patriot". I agree and apologize. This statement was poorly written. What I was trying to say, was that soldiers were willing to make the ultimate sacrifice to protect and maintain the American way of life(Democracy, capitalism, and freedom). Sorry, another senior's moment.

Again thank you for sharing your memories. Unfortunately there are memories that I only want to forget. Finally let me try to clear something up here.

I do not assign status, labels, or stereotypes on anyone. My responses are based solely on what you say, what you defend, and what you ignore. You have made statements that support and defend the OP, and simply ignored all the factual and logical claims that I've presented. So from my perspective, my statements to you are valid, and based on the evidence. For example, you are now inferring that you are actually pro-veteran privileges, because your FAMILY has a history of military service. This is a fallacy. Your association with those with military experience, does not equate to you having military experience. In fact, this association might also imply that you might resent those in military service. There is no such thing as "proxy experience". To have actual service experience, you would need to have lived in a military society for years, and under military control. This would involve assimilating a military culture of service. But I get your point. Not only to our veterans(especially our disabled and severely handicapped) deserve our respect, but they have earned it.

Truly Enlightened said:

I will address these two posts. Firstly, thank you for your honesty and for sharing your own personal memories. Most combat veterans would never wish for anyone to go through the hell that they've gone through. Most combat veterans are not looking for any respect from anyone. They are only looking to forget the horrors they've experienced. After what many combat veterans have gone through, your uninformed opinions do not even warrant their notice. We are talking about the kind of self-sacrifice, that soldiers choose willingly to participate in. And, their willingness to risk their own personal safety and life, for the ideological beliefs of service before self. This self-sacrifice is clearly worthy of respect. As a veteran today, I certainly feel that I was betrayed and my beliefs manipulated. I was not being used to protect against any threat to our way of life, but only to the threats that could threaten Corporate America's bottom line.

Does anyone here think that ANY country would attack the USA? Why does America have more than 800 military bases in over 70 countries? The US Has Military Bases in 80 Countries. All of Them Must Close. Why? Like Tulsi Gabbard says, "Why are they there?" Does anyone even question why the US does not allow any foreign power to have its military bases on American soil or territories?

I just don't understand why you and your friend, must make false assumptions, to justify your false conclusion? Who is saying that Veterans think that they are better(whatever that means) than those that have never served? No one. Who is questioning your worth as a person, because you did not serve in the military. No one. Who is questioning what you, or anyone else, would do if they came face to face with death? No one. These claims only reflect, disinformation, personal projecting, and paranoid insecurity. I still haven't seen any evidence to support any of these claims.

What is your goal here? What is your objective? What is it that you want people to think about Veterans?

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I have not drawn any conclusions yet. At this time, I have none. Any conclusions I do draw would be tentative and subject to revision on new information.

Revoltingest said:

I advise just being civil when opining, &
letting the reactions be what they'll be.
People will take offense at times.

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I know. I have taken offense here too and found myself responding with a passion that impedes progress and understanding. Questions associated with sensitive issues often ignite passionate responses. I must occasionally remind myself of that and not let my own bias interfere.

Dan From Smithville said:

I would like to take the time to address this more fully, but I do not have that at the moment. I believe I have stated my interests in posting here. They are not the interests you seem to believe I have for posting here. You seem to be equating me with a group that I am not part of. I am not against the military or military service. I am not sure how many times I will have to repeat that, but it will be true every time. I do not think that asking questions about something automatically places that person against what they are asking questions about. I see parallels here with other things I have had questions about. If I ask how viewing the Bible as infallible is not deifying the Bible, I am not a "true" Christian to many. Asking questions about anything held sacred always paints the person asking as some sort of heretic. Perhaps this is worthy of a thread of its own.

I respect the fact that you and others have served. But this is not about what a person has done or why, but rather it is about how a group of people consider themselves based on what they have done in comparison to those that have not. Or how they are perceived for what they have done. These questions apply to to other groups.

Whether you realize it or not, you are applying a status to those that are not part of your group.

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I'm afraid you are just clinging to water. You are responsible to defend the questions you ask. People like me will ask, "why are you asking these questions?". "Why do you feel that veterans are better than the rest of us?". You should be prepared to have an answer. Secondly, no veteran would ever ask this question. What veteran would ever say that they deserve special privileges? So, if you are going to ask, "Are veterans better than the rest of us?", I would suggest that you provide the evidence for asking. Oh. it's just a question? OK, then, "When did you stop beating your wife?". Just another question.

Revoltingest said:

I'm only lightly singed.

Exclusivity & admiration are desired by all (maybe just most).
Collecting famous rare sports cars....feeling that one belongs to
an elite group such as soldiers, cops, firemen, or groundskeepers,
....such things are attractive.

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I have mentioned on here, a bit of my history. Do I consider myself special because I have a few illustrious ancestors? After all, it was their actions that elevated them and those actions are not mine. What have I done lately?

Truly Enlightened said:

I'm afraid you are just clinging to water. You are responsible to defend the questions you ask. People like me will ask, "why are you asking these questions?". "Why do you feel that veterans are better than the rest of us?". You should be prepared to have an answer. Secondly, no veteran would ever ask this question. What veteran would ever say that they deserve special privileges? So, if you are going to ask, "Are veterans better than the rest of us?", I would suggest that you provide the evidence for asking. Oh. it's just a question? OK, then, "When did you stop beating your wife?". Just another question.

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No. I can ask questions because I seek to understand things I do not know. I may not even know the right questions to ask when I first ask. That is a sound defense of my questions.

You are tagging on things to those questions that are uniquely your own and are not pat of my questions. Because of your passion, you are reading things into those questions that are not there.

Revoltingest said:

Yes, generally.
This is because I judge them as individuals rather than as members of a group.

The question is the one I posed in the OP.
Yours is significantly altered.

Do you believe that you have the truth,
& that I have only opinions?

Before we address your many following points,
I ask that you reconsider the above underlined sentence.
Ask yourself....
Do I sound angry?
Does this prejudge another's response?
Am I here to converse, or just to win an argument?

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You are correct. After considering my comments, I do come off as angry, and prejudging your responses. I will try an be more civil in the future.

You are making statements that are false, and I am trying to correct them. Otherwise people will become victims of disinformation. The question I asked had nothing to do with the opening post's question. So I did not alter it. Also, I believe that my opinion is based on the data and facts I can point to. Since you are not providing any facts or data, your truth is based only on your opinion.

Dan From Smithville said:

I know. I have taken offense here too and found myself responding with a passion that impedes progress and understanding. Questions associated with sensitive issues often ignite passionate responses. I must occasionally remind myself of that and not let my own bias interfere.

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When on occasion I take offense at something, I try to take
my time to express just the right amount in the right way.
To do entirely without being offended would make for too
sterile a forum. But a little offense, with a dash of mirth &
a smidgeon of constructive commentary satisfies.

Truly Enlightened said:

You are correct. After considering my comments, I do come off as angry, and prejudging your responses. I will try an be more civil in the future.

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This is good.

You are making statements that are false, and I am trying to correct them. Otherwise people will become victims of disinformation. The question I asked had nothing to do with the opening post's question. So I did not alter it. Also, I believe that my opinion is based on the data and facts I can point to. Since you are not providing any facts or data, your truth is based only on your opinion.

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This thread isn't much about facts, but rather how we judge others,
& in particular, veterans. But if you find proffered facts to be wrong,
then please do correct them.

Dan From Smithville said:

I have mentioned on here, a bit of my history. Do I consider myself special because I have a few illustrious ancestors? After all, it was their actions that elevated them and those actions are not mine. What have I done lately?

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I suspect that you've done little, but I hope it's more than what I have.
My ancestors aren't all misanthropes & cretinous knuckle walkers,
but I don't take any pride in the few who became productive citizens.
Their accomplishments are their own...not mine.

Revoltingest said:

When on occasion I take offense at something, I try to take
my time to express just the right amount in the right way.
To do entirely without being offended would make for too
sterile a forum. But a little offense, with a dash of mirth &
a smidgeon of constructive commentary satisfies.

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I admit that sometimes I use receiving and giving offense for strategic purposes, but in this discussion, I think it is best tempered as much as possible, given the passions that these questions have driven. Though, tempered does not mean eliminated or ignored.

Revoltingest said:

I suspect that you've done little, but I hope it's more than what I have.
My ancestors aren't all misanthropes & cretinous knuckle walkers,
but I don't take any pride in the few who became productive citizens.
Their accomplishments are their own...not mine.

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That is the attitude I have come to on the subject. Theirs are their own and mine are mine. Still, I recognize that even mentioning it is in some way, the set up for a status I want others to see me in.