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Why did the Jews reject their Messiah when he DID come?

JJ50

Well-Known Member
Jesus was recognised by mostly Jews and became christiand because they knew the OT well.
Paul and
Ppeter and the other apostles visited all the synagogues in Acia minor, Rome and palestine and these people, Jews, saw that what they preached was true.
It was only 150 years after Jesus that the Jewish teachers denied the divinity of Jesus
There was nothing divine about that guy. I reckon the gospel writers and that unpleasant chap, Paul, made up all the less than credible stuff about him years after he was a rotting corpse somewhere.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
There was nothing divine about that guy. I reckon the gospel writers and that unpleasant chap, Paul, made up all the less than credible stuff about him years after he was a rotting corpse somewhere.
Well, I assume you simply refuses any written records about Jesus then.
We have the rotten corpses of all the Egyptian kings, the Assyrians, the Greeks, the Scitheans, and every person who claimed to be either Divine of Important.
Heck we have the corpse of Muhammad, and even bones of Siddhartha Gautama.
We have the Jews who would have loved to prove that Jesus did not have a ressurection, but was a corpse.
It is so easy to make claims about Jesus, but one thing you do not realise is that the Apostles and followers of Christ was persecuted intencely and there was not a single one that proclaimed that Jesus rose from the dead and ascended to heaven.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Did they not recognize Him as earlier prophesied in the OT?

Christians consider Him as Lord, Jesus Christ.

Maybe the Jews will finally get it on His second coming?
You realize that "the Jews" are not some sort of hive mind, right? You're talking as if you think that all Jews living in all periods of past, present and future all share a brain.

Are you going for some "collective guilt" angle?
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
The Bible includes the Old Testament.
Actually, the Bible is the Old Testament, and the New Testament is an addition to the OT.
I believe in the Old Testament first, and the NT as support of the fullfillment of the OT.
Only when I studied the OT from the perspective of the Apostles, did I realise that the Trinity is contained therein, and the death and ressurection of Jesus had to take place.
Any other "Messiah" will never fullfill the prophecies as it does with Jesus.
The reason for Jesus' crucifixion and ressurection was because of what was described in the OT.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
It's always better for Christians not to quote the Talmud.

Both examples above are considered Messianic by various Jewish rabbis. Concerning Daniel chapter 9, we see the following quotes by ancient Jewish rabbis:

In the Babylonian Talmud, complied between 200 – 500 A.D., Rabbi Judah (the main compiler of the Talmud)
Rabbi Judah was not the main compiler of the Talmud. There is a Rabbi Judah the Prince who was the main compiler of the Mishnah around the year 200 CE. There is a later Rabbi Judah who died about 200 years before the Talmud was compiled. Let's carry on...

, said concerning Daniel’s prophecy:

“These times were over long ago.” – Babylonian Talmud Sanhedrin 98b and 97a
There are three citations from Daniel between the folios 97a - 98b (interesting numbering convention you use, btw), none of them made by any Rabbi Judah and none of them are from Daniel 9.
I could not find anything resembling this statement on those 4 pages.

In the 12th Century A.D., Rabbi Moses Ben Maimon (Maimonides), one of the most respected rabbis in history, said:

“Daniel has elucidated to us the knowledge of the end times. However, since they are secret, the wise (rabbis) have barred the calculations of the days of Messiah’s coming so that the untutored populace will not be led astray when they see that end times have already come but there is no sign of the Messiah.”
I'm not sure how this helps your case.

In addition, Rabbi Moses Abraham Levi noted regarding the time of the Messiah’s coming:

“I have examined and searched all the Holy Scriptures and have not found the time for the coming of Messiah clearly fixed, except in the words of Gabriel to the prophet Daniel, which are written in the 9th chapter of the prophecy of Daniel.”
I'd appreciate some help in locating a Rabbi with this name.

And, in the Targum of the Prophets, in the Tractate Megillah 3a, the Rabbi Jonathan ben Uzziel noted, concerning Daniel’s prophecy:

“The date of the Messiah was foretold in it.”
Can you clarify how this helps your case?
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
Did they not recognize Him as earlier prophesied in the OT?

Christians consider Him as Lord, Jesus Christ.

Maybe the Jews will finally get it on His second coming?
I, again can not comprehend why, The Jews will get a second chance, whilst the Christian martyrs in the middle ages and great persecutions would not be so blessed as getting this second one.
Why will a Jew who denies Jesus' divinity, be saved when they see Jesus returning to judge the world, when millions died at the hands of the inquisition, ot Roman persecution, who had nothing but their religion?
Nope, The Terminology "Jew" is an error.
Jews are just as any other Gentile in the eyes of God.
Anyhow, the Jew is not some nation of God, but Israel were.
The Jews are only one twelfth of Israel.
and they will answer for their actions just as anyone else will.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Thats why it is important for you to remember that the first Christians were all Jews.
They had significant knowledge of the Tanakh.
Dont change history for your religion's bennefit.

You are by far over stating the number of Jews that became Christians in the early history. Within a generation or two Paul was was widely teaching throughout Rome and the majority of Christians were not of Jewish background. By about 200 to 400 AD when the New testament evolved toward its present form the remaining Jews were a very small minority, and the Church Fathers were almost entirely Roman and Greek.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
I feel like I should contribute something meaningful to this thread.

You know, I don't know why so many are caught up in this messiah thing; I mean like, don't they have way more pressing things to which they need to attend? I mean I'm 24 and still single, no kids - where the hell in my saviour?! So the saviour of the world hasn't come yet, big deal, I'm not gonna care much for him when all that's bothering me is that whenever a bloke makes a romantic pass at me, I'm never attracted to him enough to reciprocate. So here I am, 24 and not married! The fact that I mostly prefer women notwithstanding, where the hell is he?!

Messiah can come when he likes, I don't care.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Jesus was recognised by mostly Jews and became christiand because they knew the OT well.
Paul and
Peter and the other apostles visited all the synagogues in Asia minor, Rome and palestine and these people, Jews, saw that what they preached was true.

By far the majority of the converts were Greek, Roman, and somy Syric, even in the Asia Minor.


It was only 150 years after Jesus that the Jewish teachers denied the divinity of Jesus

By far at the time of Jesus, most Jews denied Jesus Christ, and as time progressed Christianity became Greek and Roman with few Jews within one or two generations. The Church Fathers were overwhelmingly Greek and Roman.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Rather presumptuous to claim to know better than the Jews who their Messiah should be.

There are two groups of prophecies concerning the Messiah.
1 - Redeemer
2 - King

That is, the Messiah would come to be the "lamb slain from the
foundation of the world" to redeem us from sin.
The second is the King who reigns over the earth.

Zechariah, for one, shows how this Jewish King would be the
one who's hands and feet were pierced, and who was the
lowly one who rode upon a donkey.

The Old Testament is clear - the Jewish people would reject
their Redeemer. As a result they would be exiled and the
Gentiles instead would trust in Him. Jesus said that when
the Gentiles no longer believe the Jews would return from
exile and take back their country "with the sword." And then
the Jews and all the world would mourn the coming of the
King - that's what the bible says anyhow.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Well, I assume you simply refuses any written records about Jesus then.
We have the rotten corpses of all the Egyptian kings, the Assyrians, the Greeks, the Scitheans, and every person who claimed to be either Divine of Important.
Heck we have the corpse of Muhammad, and even bones of Siddhartha Gautama.
We have the Jews who would have loved to prove that Jesus did not have a ressurection, but was a corpse.
It is so easy to make claims about Jesus, but one thing you do not realise is that the Apostles and followers of Christ was persecuted intencely and there was not a single one that proclaimed that Jesus rose from the dead and ascended to heaven.
His corpse was stolen or lost.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
I'm thinking of starting a thread called "Why did Christians accept a false messiah when he showed up?"

Then I'll lay out why Christianity is wrong and Christians don't understand the bible because I know better than them. How does that sound? Because that's what this thread is.

There are plenty of resources available online that explain why the notion of Jesus as told in the gospels fails when measured against what Jews and Judaism understand about the concept of messiah. It isn't rocket science and it isn't a secret. He simply wasn't what Judaism requires. He still isn't, and he never will be.

Maybe it would make more sense to go to the Judaism DIR and ask a respectful question about what the Jewish expectations and qualifications are for any messiah, past present or future. Or better yet, spend 3 minutes online and read from an actual Jewish website (or another thread on a forum).
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Zechariah, for one, shows how this Jewish King would be the
one who's hands and feet were pierced, and who was the
lowly one who rode upon a donkey.
You mean that passage about the false prophets?

4 “On that day every prophet will be ashamed of their prophetic vision. They will not put on a prophet’s garment of hair in order to deceive. 5 Each will say, ‘I am not a prophet. I am a farmer; the land has been my livelihood since my youth,' If someone asks, ‘What are these wounds on your body?’ they will answer, ‘The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.’
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
I always enjoy that specific moment when Christians start using Christian writings to undermine their point to people who do not care about these writings one bit.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
You mean that passage about the false prophets?

4 “On that day every prophet will be ashamed of their prophetic vision. They will not put on a prophet’s garment of hair in order to deceive. 5 Each will say, ‘I am not a prophet. I am a farmer; the land has been my livelihood since my youth,' If someone asks, ‘What are these wounds on your body?’ they will answer, ‘The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.’

Zechariah 9
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem! See, your King
comes to you, righteous and victorious, gentle and riding on
a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim and the horse from Jerusalem, and the bow of war will be
broken. Then He will proclaim peace to the nations; His dominion will extend from sea to sea, and

from the Euphrates to the ends of the earth.…

Zech 12
On that day the LORD will defend the residents of Jerusalem, so that the weakest among them will be like
David, and the house of David will be like God, like the Angel of the LORD going before them. So on that day
I will set out to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of
supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him,
as one mourns for an only son
, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a
firstborn.


Some Jews think the notion of a Messiah coming back from the dead to fulfill prophecy not done while
he lived is a bit lame. But Zechariah, for one, shows this Messiah King is also the one who previously
came and suffered. The scripture says that if we cannot accept the suffering Messiah (ie Isaiah 53)
then we will not reign with Him.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Zechariah 9
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem! See, your King
comes to you, righteous and victorious, gentle and riding on
a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim and the horse from Jerusalem, and the bow of war will be
broken. Then He will proclaim peace to the nations; His dominion will extend from sea to sea, and

from the Euphrates to the ends of the earth.…

Zech 12
On that day the LORD will defend the residents of Jerusalem, so that the weakest among them will be like
David, and the house of David will be like God, like the Angel of the LORD going before them. So on that day
I will set out to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of
supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him,
as one mourns for an only son
, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a
firstborn.


Some Jews think the notion of a Messiah coming back from the dead to fulfill prophecy not done while
he lived is a bit lame. But Zechariah, for one, shows this Messiah King is also the one who previously
came and suffered. The scripture says that if we cannot accept the suffering Messiah (ie Isaiah 53)
then we will not reign with Him.
I was going to ask you when your Jesus actually fulfilled any of the Messianic prophecies but I know I'll just get a 'When he comes back' cop out, because right now there is no-one on the Davidic throne and the nations coming against Jerusalem still very much exist.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Zechariah 9
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem! See, your King
comes to you, righteous and victorious, gentle and riding on
a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim and the horse from Jerusalem, and the bow of war will be
broken. Then He will proclaim peace to the nations; His dominion will extend from sea to sea, and
from the Euphrates to the ends of the earth.…
This has pretty clearly not happened.
Zech 12
On that day the LORD will defend the residents of Jerusalem, so that the weakest among them will be like
David, and the house of David will be like God, like the Angel of the LORD going before them. So on that day
I will set out to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of
supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him,
as one mourns for an only son
, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a
firstborn.
This entire chapter is describing a war on the inhabitants of Jerusalem by the nations of the world. The events described here haven't happened yet.
Your interpretation/translation of the enbolded words are also jarringly absurd in their switch from first-person to third-person.

Some Jews think the notion of a Messiah coming back from the dead to fulfill prophecy not done while
he lived is a bit lame. But Zechariah, for one, shows this Messiah King is also the one who previously
came and suffered. The scripture says that if we cannot accept the suffering Messiah (ie Isaiah 53)
then we will not reign with Him.
We've clearly seen now that Zechariah shows no such thing.
 
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