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Atheists: If God existed…

PureX

Veteran Member
What is illogical and untruthful about the video? What evidence do you have backing up your claim that the video is not logical and doesn't show the truth? Back up your claim that the video is just "speculation".
The truth is that if no humans exist in a specified time and place, then no humans can know what happens in that time and place. And all any humans existing in any other time and place can do, then, is speculate about what might have happened, is happening, or will happen in that times and places that they do not inhabit. Speculation about the truth is not the truth. Speculations about things that we can't experience is not knowledge. The video is all speculation. And speculation is not truth, nor is it certain.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
God does have wrath when it is warranted. This we know because it is revealed in various scriptures. Some humans deserve the wrath of God. It is not our job to judge other people, only God can judge.

What is best for the others is not always unconditional love, because evil people take that as weakness and use it to their advantage, and then they just continue in their evil ways. That is not doing them any favors.

No, we should not be angry hateful or vengeful. We should try to live in peace and solve our problems.

Romans 12:17-19 New King James Version (NKJV)

17 Repay no one evil for evil. Havea]">[a] regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.


I can see religion has corrupted your view. As I see it, they are teaching you to hate.

Ask yourself. When is it warranted for God to have wrath? Further, what is the reason God is feeling wrathful?

Unconditional Love is the answer for all actions regardless of how others take it. How can doing what is best for another be bad? Now if you just give others everything they want, this is not Unconditional Love. Further, acting out of hate or revenge is not Unconditional Love either.

Holy books are written by mankind. That is who they really reflect. It is mankind who gets wrathful when they can not control the actions of another. Look closely. It stares you in the face. Will you have Blind faith or will you see what actually exists?
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Have you read these books?
Michael Newton
I don't remember any previous lifetimes but I'm sure there must have been lots during my previous 13.8 billion years or more. No wonder I feel very very tired sometimes...


It is important to concentrate on the lessons we live in our current lives. After death, one sees the total picture. Even though we might not remember past lives, who we really are and what we have learned carries forward.

You are right. There is no telling how many lives one has lived. There is a lot to learn and experience.

Tired? I think a hot meal and a good night's sleep and you will be ready to change the world for the better as we know it.

No, I have not read anything by Michael Newton.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
The truth is that if no humans exist in a specified time and place, then no humans can know what happens in that time and place. And all any humans existing in any other time and place can do, then, is speculate about what might have happened, is happening, or will happen in that times and places that they do not inhabit. Speculation about the truth is not the truth. Speculations about things that we can't experience is not knowledge. The video is all speculation. And speculation is not truth, nor is it certain.
We know what happens to an unattended car left to rust. We know the truth about what happens to an unattended car left to rust. The definition of speculation is "the activity of guessing possible answers to a question without having enough information to be certain"
SPECULATION | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary
But the makers of the video aren't guessing. We know what happens to unattended cars. No guessing involved. We do have enough information to be certain. We can simply look at pictures of unattended cars or go and look at them ourselves.
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
We know what happens to an unattended car left to rust. We know the truth about what happens to an unattended car left to rust.
No, we don't. It's as simple as that. WE DON'T KNOW.
The definition of speculation is "the activity of guessing possible answers to a question without having enough information to be certain"
So you are NOT certain then, after all? You are just speculating and falsely labeling your speculations, certainty.
But the makers of the video aren't guessing. We know what happens to unattended cars.
No, we don't.
No guessing involved. We do have enough information to be certain. We can simply look at pictures of unattended cars or go and look at them ourselves.
That doesn't mean that what happened to car X while unobserved is what did or will happen to car Z while unobserved. In fact, it's logically impossible that the same things would happen to both, as they do not both inhabit the same place in space and time.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
That doesn't mean that what happened to car X while unobserved is what did or will happen to car Z while unobserved. In fact, it's logically impossible that the same things would happen to both, as they do not both inhabit the same place in space and time.
It's logically impossible that if you leave two cars out in the desert unattended they both would decay? If one decays and it's logically impossible for the other to decay too what do you think would happen to it? Will it sprout wings and fly away? Will it vanish into thin air? Will it turn into a petunia?
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
It's logically impossible that if you leave two cars out in the desert unattended they both would decay?
Maybe they would, and maybe they wouldn't, we wouldn't know unless we were there to observe.
If one decays and it's logically impossible for the other to decay too what do you think would happen to it?
Aliens from space could come and took one away. Maybe one was just built a lot better than the other one. Maybe some teenagers found them and decided to use one of them for their "love nest". Maybe clever squirrels made one their home and then made little tiny brooms to sweep out the dirt. Maybe the weather buries one in sand but not the other. Who knows? Not us, because we aren't going to be there to observe whatever happens to them. So we aren't going to know what happens to them. And all the speculation you can muster, and all the certainty we can feign is not going to change that fact.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Aliens from space could come and took one away.
Then it wouldn't be unattended and would also be observed.
Maybe one was just built a lot better than the other one. Maybe some teenagers found them and decided to use one of them for their "love nest".
Then it wouldn't be unattended and would also be observed.
Maybe clever squirrels made one their home and then made little tiny brooms to sweep out the dirt.
Then it wouldn't be unattended and would also be observed.
Maybe the weather buries one in sand but not the other.
It still would decay. Do you still maintain that it's logically impossible for two cars left unattended and unobserved in the desert to both decay?
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Same thing.
No, it is not the same. No religion is above any other religion, some are just newer.
I said "other religions make similar claims" i.e progressive revelation, etc.
Name some religions that make that claim.
The question is: why?
I trust Baha’u’llah because of the evidence that indicates that He was a Manifestation of God.
And why do you trust the book's accounts of the prophecies and the events that supposedly fulfilled them?
Because they can be verified by my own research.
So you've gone from claiming that it was impossible for you to be wrong, to saying that you could be wrong. That is an improvement.

Also, it should be your job to demonstrate your beliefs are true - it is not the job of others to disprove a proposition before you have provided sufficient reason to accept it.
I never said it is impossible that I am wrong, I said it seems like it would be impossible.

I have demonstrated to myself that my beliefs are true, but it is not my job to demonstrate that to anyone else. If people want to know, they have to do their own investigation.

I only ever said that if you want to prove to me that my beliefs are not true, you will have to prove that to me.
And how do you know any of this?
I verified it by reading books and websites. How else could I know?
History WOULD be independent verification. So what supports it?
The various religions that have been revealed at different times in history.
Thought progresses over time. That doesn't make any specific claims by any religion more likely to be true.
I wasn’t addressing whether they are true, I was addressing whether they are progressive.
Since it's impossible to prove a proposition, especially an unfalisfiable one, wrong, what you are suggesting is impossible, so it is impossible for you to change your mind.
That’s not true, I already told you if you could discredit Baha’u’llah that would prove the Baha’i Faith is wrong.
How? Please give me a hypothetical example of something I could demonstrate that would prove Baha'i false.
You could discredit Baha’u’llah that would prove the Baha’i Faith is false. Prove He was a liar or a con-man or deluded but use accurate sources, not calumny.
Again, how? What could I show you that would convince you of that?
Also, my cousin says he is a genie. Can you prove he is a liar?
I could, if he could not perform as a genie. Baha’u’llah came in recent history. If Baha’u’llah was a liar or a con-man or deluded you could prove it.
You got that right up until the second half. It is not incumbent upon others to demonstrate a proposition is false. The burden is always on you to demonstrate that it is true - including to yourself. If you do not have sufficient justification for a belief, nobody need demonstrate it to be false.
If others are claiming it is false, it is incumbent upon others to demonstrate it is false.

I already demonstrated to myself that it is true and I have justification that is sufficient for me.
No, Trailblazer, it's not a strawman and that is a lie. You clearly stated only a few posts ago:

Post 163:
"In my mind, it is impossible that what I believe about Baha’u’llah is not true, because there is too much evidence that shows that He was who He claimed to be."
That is where I am at in this moment in time, but I also said that if you could prove it is false I would admit it is false and walk away.
You've yet to provide a single good reason for why you believe what you believe. You have insufficient reason to accept it. It is not incumbent upon others to demonstrate it false, you have to demonstrate it to be true.
I told you I believe because of the evidence and I listed the categories of evidence. That is a sufficient reason for me to believe.

I have already demonstrated it is true to myself.
And yet you cannot provide sufficient reason to accept it.
I gave you the reason, evidence. This will be the last post I answer because I have determined you are just playing games. I do not have time for games, only for sincere people.
I know that anyone who claims that it is impossible for them to be wrong about something is clearly not a rational person, and thus far you have given me no reason to believe that you have critically and honestly evaluated your beliefs. You've presented nothing.
You are misrepresenting me again. I never said it was impossible for me to be wrong. I said I could be wrong if I was proven wrong.

Who are YOU to tell me what I have evaluated, after I already explained several times that I critically evaluated the evidence?
This is all irrelevant to whether or not your beliefs are true and how you determined it. You have provided no evidence of either.
I am under no obligation to provide evidence for you. The evidence is available for everyone to look at for themselves.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You only need to justify God's existence if you want your belief in God to be rational.

Irrational beliefs need no justification at all.
There is nothing irrational about God choosing to use a Messenger as proof of His existence.
But without establishing God, you have no way of establishing that someone is a Messenger of God.
The existence of God cannot ever be established as a fact.
Right. And I'm saying that you can't determine that a purported Messenger represented God if you haven't even established that God exists in the first place.
I do not see it that way because I know that the existence of God cannot ever be established as a fact, so we look at the evidence that God provides as proof of His existence, Messengers, and if we believe them we have certitude that God exists.
Your argument is circular.
Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving"; also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.[1] The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Circular reasoning - Wikipedia

No, it is not circular because I did not begin with what I wanted to end with. In other words, I did not say that God exists because Baha’u’llah was a Messenger f God. I first determined that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God and then I believed God exists.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The world wouldn't be in a state of turmoil if we didn't have 4,200 religions including yours and everybody lived according to the Golden Rule and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. The world is full of religious people and look at the state it's in. And your solution is more religious people? List of religious populations - Wikipedia
The world wouldn't be in a state of turmoil if we had one religion that had everything humanity needs.
I believe that religion is the Baha'i Faith.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Your solution to the problem of having conflicting holy books is to introduce another conflicting holy book? A book that even disagrees with the Bible about what faith is? How could any rational person read the Internet Sacred Text Archive at Internet Sacred Text Archive Home and then manage to come up with the idea that what the world needs is yet another religion? As if there aren't enough of them already?
My solution to the problem is to have a holy book that reveals everything we need to know and explains the other holy books.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Why does God just exist? So there is no purpose to God's existence? He exists for no purpose? And why would God have this function to begin with? And why is it that God just is? There is nothing here explaining the existence of and purpose of and reason for and meaning of the existence of God in the first place... let me give you a hint... if you are going to make up a god at least make up a good reason for why he would exist in the first place...
Do you want a reason why God exists? Here it is:

“Also the inaction or the movement of man depend upon the assistance of God. If he is not aided, he is not able to do either good or evil. But when the help of existence comes from the Generous Lord, he is able to do both good and evil; but if the help is cut off, he remains absolutely helpless. This is why in the Holy Books they speak of the help and assistance of God. So this condition is like that of a ship which is moved by the power of the wind or steam; if this power ceases, the ship cannot move at all. Nevertheless, the rudder of the ship turns it to either side, and the power of the steam moves it in the desired direction. If it is directed to the east, it goes to the east; or if it is directed to the west, it goes to the west. This motion does not come from the ship; no, it comes from the wind or the steam.

In the same way, in all the action or inaction of man, he receives power from the help of God; but the choice of good or evil belongs to the man himself.”

Some Answered Questions, pp. 249-250
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I can see religion has corrupted your view. As I see it, they are teaching you to hate.
My religion does not teach me to hate, quite the opposite.
Ask yourself. When is it warranted for God to have wrath? Further, what is the reason God is feeling wrathful?
Whatever God does is warranted because God is the Ruler of the Universe. God is not answerable to anyone. God is wrathful when human behavior warrants His wrath.
Unconditional Love is the answer for all actions regardless of how others take it. How can doing what is best for another be bad? Now if you just give others everything they want, this is not Unconditional Love. Further, acting out of hate or revenge is not Unconditional Love either.
Unconditional love is not always warranted. Should I love the evil tenant who us trying to sue me? I think not.
I do not have to hate just because I do not love. I do not seek revenge but I seek justice.
Holy books are written by mankind. That is who they really reflect. It is mankind who gets wrathful when they can not control the actions of another. Look closely. It stares you in the face. Will you have Blind faith or will you see what actually exists?
Holy books are revealed by God to Manifestations of God and they reflect God's Will for humanity.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
If God existed, would God provide proof of His existence? I
Like show up at a blackboard and chart it all out, it doesn't really seem like God is all that interested in doing that. Whatever God or Gods there might be, clearly the interest is in testing the faith in lesser subjects. It probably makes the whole situation more interesting for the god when you think about it, and would force the humans to think more, as the humming of our brains is found to be amusing
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
The world wouldn't be in a state of turmoil if we had one religion that had everything humanity needs.
I believe that religion is the Baha'i Faith.
The world wouldn't be in a state of turmoil if we didn't have 4,200 religions and everybody believes that their religion is the correct one for humanity. You are just one of them. There is nothing special separating you from a Christian saying that his religion is the correct one for humanity and has everything humanity needs.
 
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