The 'great nothing', vs heaven or hell: which is better?

Desert Snake said:

Nonsense...

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Fact, sorry if it pops your bubble

Trailblazer said:

It never ceases to amaze me why more people do not take this seriously. Do they really think they will never die?

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This is just so ironic. YOU'RE the one who thinks you will never die. Here's the proof:

Trailblazer said:

Of course it is true that there is an afterlife, which I refer to as the spiritual world... After all, this earthly life is only temporary but the afterlife is forever.

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YOU believe you will exist, in some form, forever. YOU are the one who thinks you should last forever in this equation. Not someone who accepts annihilation - like myself.

Why would you ever think that someone without an afterlife belief thinks that they will "never die?" Your incredulity about that point is only caused by your ASSUMPTION that there is an afterlife. We all face death. Some us just lack the audacity to claim that the universe has some plan to preserve us on into eternity. Not you, apparently.

Aupmanyav said:

Oh, yeah, what constitutes you will have an after life. Let me tell you how? As a Hindu, when I am cremated, I will be turned into water vapor (to be absorbed in the atmosphere and then by vegetation and living beings), carbon-di-oxide (that is where the carbon in my body will go, polluting the world. We are thinking of how to limit this pollution) and lime (from bones of my body, this will be part of a sediment in future). If you are not a Hindu, then you can think about what will happen to you.

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You are describing what will happen to our bodies. As to that, you are quite correct. However, AS a Hindu (at least, as far as any of my Hindu friends have told me) our bodies are not our whole selves. Certainly those of us (mostly) of the Abrahamic faiths believe that the spirit inhabits the body, but does not die when the body does. Well, most of us believe that, anyway.

So the 'afterlife' has nothing to do with what happens to the body.

As to carbon dioxide polluting the planet...sheesh. You need to look up the 'circle of life.' Recycling the body back to 'the earth' or nature or whatever is what is SUPPOSED to happen. Your death won't pollute anything. Unless you are dumb enough to get embalmed.

I am relieved. Hindus do not use any embalming. Ours is a simple process, which costs less than USD 100.

loverofhumanity said:

Man’s concept of the afterlife governs his behaviour in this life. If a person is God fearing then he will act accordingly and try to not waste his life here just accumulating wealth & treasures and be absorbed in lust and pleasures. Because he would be aware that the condition of his soul could be affected in the next world.

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I don't agree that belief in God makes a person's behavior any different (More % of criminals believe in God than those who are atheists - statistics). And the example of priests and clerics negates what you are saying about lust.

loverofhumanity said:

Man’s concept of the afterlife governs his behaviour in this life.

If a person is God fearing then he will act accordingly and try to not waste his life here just accumulating wealth & treasures and be absorbed in lust and pleasures. Because he would be aware that the condition of his soul could be affected in the next world.
<...>

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Aupmanyav said:

I am relieved. Hindus do not use any embalming. Ours is a simple process, which costs less than USD 100.I don't agree that belief in God makes a person's behavior any different (More % of criminals believe in God than those who are atheists - statistics). And the example of priests and clerics negates what you are saying about lust.

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You can add accumulating of material wealth to megapreachers, as well.
8 Richest Pastors in America

Kenneth Copeland: Net Worth $760 Million
Pat Robertson: Net Worth $100 Million
Benny Hinn: Net Worth $42 Million
Joel Osteen: Net Worth $40 Million
Creflo Dollar: Net Worth $27 Million
Billy Graham: Net Worth $25 Million
Rick Warren: Net Worth $25 Million
Joyce Meyer: Net Worth $8 Million

Desert Snake said:

An atheist or atheistic religions conception of facing annihilation,

However for theists who believe in an afterlife, heaven and hell,

Which is better?

Which is true?

To an atheists soul wrenching meditation, is incredibly foreboding. An awakening, if you will. Faced with the great nothing , an annihilation, this is of prime importance to atheist religions.
The anguished cry of a mortal screaming at an uncaring universe.

•

To theists, who have an afterlife, heaven and hell, so forth. This means nothing.
Facing heaven or hell is thusly an important factor, so forth. The line between this world, and the next, or other realms, is willow o the wisp at best, there is is no distinction, often times.

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Totally different perceptions of the self, and the 'universe'.

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So... no reincarnation?
Gee, that's a real bummer.
Oh well, maybe you'll have better luck next time!

ChristineM said:

Evidence?

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The evidence will be that you are still alive and fully conscious.

ChristineM said:

You will have your evidence when you die.

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I surely will.

A Vestigial Mote said:

This is just so ironic. YOU'RE the one who thinks you will never die. Here's the proof:
YOU believe you will exist, in some form, forever. YOU are the one who thinks you should last forever in this equation. Not someone who accepts annihilation - like myself.

Why would you ever think that someone without an afterlife belief thinks that they will "never die?" Your incredulity about that point is only caused by your ASSUMPTION that there is an afterlife. We all face death. Some us just lack the audacity to claim that the universe has some plan to preserve us on into eternity. Not you, apparently.

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Sheesh, I meant that you atheists seem to think that your physical life on this earth will never come to an end, so you act as if you will never die.

It's not the universe has some plan to preserve us on into eternity. It is God that has the plan to preserve us into eternity because that is why we were created, to attain the presence of God.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156

Hawkins said:

It can contradict. There's no serious testimonies about the encounter of an unicorn. A religion on the other hand, can have valid testimonies.

If you want you testimony of seeing unicorn to be valid, you need to first have eyewitnesses to see how you can reach Mars. It' better for the eyewitnesses to martyr themselves to backup their testimonies on seeing you arriving on Mars.

Religions are not always about a wild and baseless claim, it's about testimonies which are possible to be valid!

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Yes. like the reports of Elvis still being alive.

Ciao

- viole

loverofhumanity said:

Man’s concept of the afterlife governs his behaviour in this life.

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There is certainly life after death. Our children and grandchildren for example. And everyone else’s too.

If that isn’t enough motivation for someone to be a decent social being, they must be an insensitive ignorant a-hole.

I find it revealing that so many theists never mention that as a primary motivation.

“I just wanna go to heaven...cos I’m worth it”

Erebus said:

Let me run a possible scenario by you.

Imagine that God, the omnipotent and omniscient creator of the universe is evil. This life only exists so that we have at least some concept of comfort and the ability to hope. After death, everybody goes to a place of unimaginable suffering for eternity. Doesn't matter what you did in life or who you were, everybody is damned. There's no hope of release and no way to fight back against an omnipotent creator.

If we don't know what the afterlife holds, then that scenario is a possibility. Perhaps you haven't envisioned an afterlife that you're completely at ease with, I can accept that. I'll also hold my hands up and admit that saying "most comforting" was a poor choice of words. I would still suggest though that your beliefs are preferable to entertaining the possibilities an unknown afterlife could hold.

That's by no means a criticism by the way. I can't contemplate the scenario I outlined above for too long and I don't believe it would be healthy to do so.

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Yup, and the almost general assumption that God must be good, and not many believe not to be among the chosen ones, independently of the kind of God or Goddesses they believe in, is just evidence that this is nothing more than a huge exercise of wishful thinking.

Ciao

- viole

Trailblazer said:

The evidence will be that you are still alive and fully conscious.

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You seem to indicate that this blob of bloody matter, consisting of 100 billions neurons, and a zillion of interconnections,
is basically redundant.

S.D. as usual

Ciao

- viole

crossfire said:

Since you mentioned Buddha specifically, I will post the Four Solaces, from the Kalama Sutta (an excellent sutta all around to check out) which is somewhat analagous to Pascal's Wager, which then leaves no pretzel logic excuse to not purify ones mind from the poisons of greed, hatred, and delusion in this life:

Kalama Sutta verse 17:
The Four Solaces
17. "The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom four solaces are found here and now.

"'Suppose there is a hereafter and there is a fruit, result, of deeds done well or ill. Then it is possible that at the dissolution of the body after death, I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is possessed of the state of bliss.' This is the first solace found by him.

"'Suppose there is no hereafter and there is no fruit, no result, of deeds done well or ill. Yet in this world, here and now, free from hatred, free from malice, safe and sound, and happy, I keep myself.' This is the second solace found by him.

"'Suppose evil (results) befall an evil-doer. I, however, think of doing evil to no one. Then, how can ill (results) affect me who do no evil deed?' This is the third solace found by him.

"'Suppose evil (results) do not befall an evil-doer. Then I see myself purified in any case.' This is the fourth solace found by him.

"The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, these four solaces are found."

"So it is, Blessed One. So it is, Sublime one. The disciple of the Noble Ones, venerable sir, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, four solaces are found.

"'Suppose there is a hereafter and there is a fruit, result, of deeds done well or ill. Then it is possible that at the dissolution of the body after death, I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is possessed of the state of bliss.' This is the first solace found by him.

"'Suppose there is no hereafter and there is no fruit, no result, of deeds done well or ill. Yet in this world, here and now, free from hatred, free from malice, safe and sound, and happy, I keep myself.' This is the second solace found by him.

"'Suppose evil (results) befall an evil-doer. I, however, think of doing evil to no one. Then, how can ill (results) affect me who do no evil deed?' This is the third solace found by him.

"'Suppose evil (results) do not befall an evil-doer. Then I see myself purified in any case.' This is the fourth solace found by him.

"The disciple of the Noble Ones, venerable sir, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, these four solaces are found.

"Marvelous, venerable sir! Marvelous, venerable sir! As if, venerable sir, a person were to turn face upward what is upside down, or to uncover the concealed, or to point the way to one who is lost or to carry a lamp in the darkness, thinking, 'Those who have eyes will see visible objects,' so has the Dhamma been set forth in many ways by the Blessed One. We, venerable sir, go to the Blessed One for refuge, to the Dhamma for refuge, and to the Community of Bhikkhus for refuge. Venerable sir, may the Blessed One regard us as lay followers who have gone for refuge for life, from today."​

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Suppose, in addition to the above possibilities, there is possibility of another situation (or there is possibility of perception of another situation) when your being good and just here and now is actually conducive to your penury and poverty (or downright destruction).

In other words, who will take care of a monk? Or, see how Tibet is annexed by China? See how simple people are at the mercy of economic and physical offenders?

Did Buddha miss something? Or may be I missed the whole point?

atanu said:

Suppose, in addition to the above possibilities, there is possibility of another situation (or there is possibility of perception of another situation) when your being good and just here and now is actually conducive to your penury and poverty (or downright destruction).

In other words, who will take care of a monk? Or, see how Tibet is annexed by China? See how simple people are at the mercy of economic and physical offenders?

Did Buddha miss something? Or may be I missed the whole point?

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These four solaces were in regard to choosing between spiritual teachings that either propagate the poisons of greed, hatred, or delusion; or that teach purifying your mind from the poisons of greed, hatred, and delusion. Metaphysics is taken out of the equation.

Really? This is it? No one with anything real?

It's hilarious, all the study, religious talk, and just a mess of illusion. Atheism and some of these religions certainly arent giving you anything, get a grip, they might be feel good hobbies.

Desert Snake said:

Really? This is it? No one with anything real?

It's hilarious, all the study, religious talk, and just a mess of illusion. Atheism and some of these religions certainly arent giving you anything, get a grip, they might be feel good hobbies.

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It would appear that your take on the subject has no more credibility than the ones you are deriding.

When the brain creates memory, aspects of the limbic system will add an emotional tag, as the sensory content is written to the cerebral matter. Our memory contains both sensory content and connected emotional tags. This is why our strongest memories also have the strongest feelings.

This is useful to the animal brain since if they encounter a similar situation, as is already in memory, it will trigger the memory, and they will feel the old feeling and can act on the feeling, without having to think or reinvent the wheel. For example, if they see a food object that once was tasty they will feel the good feeling from memory, and immediately eat.

That being said, the symbolism of Adam and Eve eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is connected to the memory writing process of the brain. The tree of knowledge is law. Law teaches us the good and evil paths for behavior.

The problem with law this binary of good and evil, implicit of any law, implies two conflicting emotional tags; love and fear, written for each law memory. If the animal was to encounter a food object that was both good and evil, he would not know how to act, since the conflicting feelings would make him want to both run away and stay.

Tree of knowledge or law created an unnatural situation for the natural memory writing process of the natural human brain This was useful in the sense of humans having to reinvent the wheel in terms of action, allowing more and more nuance to become conscious. However, it led to other problems.

Since it is not natural to feel divided, internally, due to law memory; conflicting feelings, the brain will resolve the conflicting feelings by making half of the binary conscious, and half unconscious. We may feel we are doing good, even if we do shady things. The shady things may come as compulsions from the unconscious side, that is repressed and thereby seem instinctive. This unconscious subroutine is symbolized as Satan. The ends justifying the means is an artifact of this internal division of the binary of law. We are conscious of the good that may come, but we are less conscious of the evil instinct that we may employ, to achieve that good.

Heaven and Hell was an attempt to remove the unconscious side of the binary of law, by making each side of the law have a single conscious emotional tag. All the good of law is symbolized by heaven and all the bad of law is symbolize by Hell. Hell contains all the punishment and behavior associated with the dark side of law.

This conscious division of law memory and the single tagging returns the brain to the how nature rates and tags the extremes of memory. This helped the to remove the unconscious subroutine. This us symbolized as Satan thrown from heaven. The animal brain will now sense a good; heaven and putrid; hell, food and can act, since each has a single tag. Before heaven and hell; singular tagging, both would be ambiguous where somethings healthy may be suspect as too good to be good.

This return to singular tagging has been a key to the success of Christian nations worldwide, since less unconsciousness means more will power and directed choice; both good and evil. This who lack this singular tagging learn to accept the coexistence of the opposites; ends justify means.

JJ50 said:

It would appear that your take on the subject has no more credibility than the ones you are deriding.

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Really...

Desert Snake said:

An atheist or atheistic religions conception of facing annihilation,

However for theists who believe in an afterlife, heaven and hell,

Which is better?

Which is true?

To an atheists soul wrenching meditation, is incredibly foreboding. An awakening, if you will. Faced with the great nothing , an annihilation, this is of prime importance to atheist religions.
The anguished cry of a mortal screaming at an uncaring universe.

•

To theists, who have an afterlife, heaven and hell, so forth. This means nothing.
Facing heaven or hell is thusly an important factor, so forth. The line between this world, and the next, or other realms, is willow o the wisp at best, there is is no distinction, often times.

•
Totally different perceptions of the self, and the 'universe'.

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Only these two choices?