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Proof that God isn't satan, or Lucifer.

JJ50

Well-Known Member
There is a context. There is a fallen angel, later called Lucifer, who is correlated to that name, as you even presented. In other words, we know the name because of the correlation. There's nothing odd about that, it occurs elsewhere in the Bible. So, you go by the religious ideas, not your interpretations, which are very theoretical, to say the least.
In other words, it doesn't matter who the verse in Isaiah is referring to, because that is a name correlation, to what they used later, 'Lucifer'.
In fact they even wrote Lucifer, so you know it's the same name. They literally are saying, with the translation, this means this.

And since there is a Lucifer, a being, in the Bible, then you know it's meant literally, a fallen angel.

The Bible says a lot of crazy things, best not to take that story book literally any more than one would the Harry Potter novels, which are a better read, imo.
 
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crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
There is a context. There is a fallen angel, later called Lucifer, who is correlated to that name, as you even presented. In other words, we know the name because of the correlation. There's nothing odd about that, it occurs elsewhere in the Bible. So, you go by the religious ideas, not your interpretations, which are very theoretical, to say the least.
In other words, it doesn't matter who the verse in Isaiah is referring to, because that is a name correlation, to what they used later, 'Lucifer'.
In fact they even wrote Lucifer, so you know it's the same name. They literally are saying, with the translation, this means this.

And since there is a Lucifer, a being, in the Bible, then you know it's meant literally, a fallen angel.
Can you show me where lucifer is referred to as a fallen angel in the bible?
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Lucifer, is Lucifers name

Jesus, is Jesus's name

In other words.
They're different beings.

Lucifer is often or usually associated with the biblical satan. Makes sense since satan has a kingdom.
Matthew 12:26
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Lucifer, is Lucifers name

Jesus, is Jesus's name

In other words.
They're different beings.

Lucifer is often or usually associated with the biblical satan. Makes sense since satan has a kingdom.
Matthew 12:26
There is more evidence in the Bible to associate Jesus with the Morning Star than there is to associate Satan with the Morning Star. (Although one could make the argument that Jesus himself was a fallen angel sent here to suffer and die.)

I'm still waiting for your evidence.
 

susanblange

Active Member
The Three Magi? they were Mazdaens ("Zoroastrians"), from what I know. Were they following Venus, do you think?
The star in the east was just that, in the east. If the three kings came from the east and followed the star, the star would've been in the west, not the east. This star did appear on Friday evening, January 6, 1984. This date is three kings day in Puerto Rico and it was a very big and bright six pointed star in the eastern sky. The two kings were Ronald Reagan, and Zhao Zoung of China. They were at a summit close by and drove down and visited me after I was in the newspaper. I also chased them away.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Many arguments propose that either the Bible directly says, or infers, that God, is actually satan, or lucifer.

However, the Bible tells us otherwise.
Matthew 12
Matthew 12:26
'Kingdom of satan'

Thusly there are two Kingdoms being referred to, in these verses. One, the Kingdom of God, the other, the Kingdom of satan.

[Satans name in hebrew does not seem to vary from 'satan' so we can just use that, without further delineation.
Now, since Lucifer, is usually considered to be the fallen angel, He'lel, or Ha'lal, we thusly have three different references to kingdoms.

The Kingdom of God

The kingdom of Satan

The kingdom of Ha'lal, הילל, [Lucifer




This is why JHVH, can't be 'satan', or Lucifer. They are different beings, with different kingdoms.




2 Samuel 24:1


1 Chronicles 21:1
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
There is more evidence in the Bible to associate Jesus with the Morning Star than there is to associate Satan with the Morning Star. (Although one could make the argument that Jesus himself was a fallen angel sent here to suffer and die.)

I'm still waiting for your evidence.
Yes, however they used a direct correlation to 'Lucifer', [the shining one, when they used that name, to mean the fallen angel.

In other words, you have two different names

Lucifer, hebrew Ha'lal,

And Jesus, described in similar manner sometimes. General description type thing, not an intent of 'name', persona.

If the intent was to make Jesus Lucifer, then it didn't work, and isn't specific.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Can't change the association of lucifer with Jesus, now, don't want to associate Jesus with Lucifer.

Either way they[you lose the argument.
Thusly, if I say:

Jesus is Lucifer, you say no
Or if I say Jesus isn't Lucifer, you have to say no, also.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
There is more evidence in the Bible to associate Jesus with the Morning Star than there is to associate Satan with the Morning Star. (Although one could make the argument that Jesus himself was a fallen angel sent here to suffer and die.)

I'm still waiting for your evidence.
Fine then is Jesus lucifer, or not?
It's a yes or no question.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
And this type of argument has occured before. Yes, buddha as essentially an atheist, is faced with his destination, 'the big nothing', or whatever.

Believers have an afterlife, [heaven and hell, and therefore that analogy doesn't make any sense cross religion wise.
Who cares if buddha had to realize the big nothing he was going to face? According to his own religion?
Has nothing to do with the religious context we're talking about.
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
To an atheist, guatamas soul wrenching meditation, is incredibly foreboding. An awakening, if you will. Faced with the great nothing , an annihilation, this is of prime importance to atheist religions.
The anguished cry of a mortal screaming at an uncaring universe.



To theists, who have an afterlife, heaven and hell, so forth. This means nothing.
Facing heaven or hell is thusly an important factor, so forth. The line between this world, and the next, or other realms, is willow o the wisp at best, there is is no distinction, often times.


Totally different perceptions of the self, and the 'universe'.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Fine then is Jesus lucifer, or not?
It's a yes or no question.
Lucifer is a symbol of a light bringer--one who facilitates understanding. Lucifer is not one single person. It is a function within your heart/mind. A person can spread light through understanding, or can spread darkness/confusion through propaganda. The idea that Lucifer is a single person is propaganda. Some people profit by keeping people confused, and will try to demonize truth and understanding.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
Many arguments propose that either the Bible directly says, or infers, that God, is actually satan, or lucifer.

However, the Bible tells us otherwise.
Matthew 12
Matthew 12:26
'Kingdom of satan'

Thusly there are two Kingdoms being referred to, in these verses. One, the Kingdom of God, the other, the Kingdom of satan.

[Satans name in hebrew does not seem to vary from 'satan' so we can just use that, without further delineation.
Now, since Lucifer, is usually considered to be the fallen angel, He'lel, or Ha'lal, we thusly have three different references to kingdoms.

The Kingdom of God

The kingdom of Satan

The kingdom of Ha'lal, הילל, [Lucifer




This is why JHVH, can't be 'satan', or Lucifer. They are different beings, with different kingdoms.

I've read some persons involved with Judaism faith-based beliefs considering Satan to be an agent whom God uses to test people's characters.

 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Lucifer is a symbol of a light bringer--one who facilitates understanding. Lucifer is not one single person. It is a function within your heart/mind. A person can spread light through understanding, or can spread darkness/confusion through propaganda. The idea that Lucifer is a single person is propaganda. Some people profit by keeping people confused, and will try to demonize truth and understanding.
You understand that for some theistic believers, this isn't a "whim", or such? I'm not sure you understand that, because your arguments do not refute certain beliefs.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Go look up Carl Jung's Transcendent Function.

Consider the Zen sayings:

"From Great Trust (Faith) arises Great Doubt. From Great Doubt arises Great Determination. From Great Determination arises Great Awakening."

"Great Doubt, Great Awakening. Small Doubt, Small Awakening. No doubt, No awakening."
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Go look up Carl Jung's Transcendent Function.

Consider the Zen sayings:

"From Great Trust (Faith) arises Great Doubt. From Great Doubt arises Great Determination. From Great Determination arises Great Awakening."

"Great Doubt, Great Awakening. Small Doubt, Small Awakening. No doubt, No awakening."
Here's a document I just wrote to help you understand.
 

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Road Less Traveled

Active Member
People can make whatever name they want up, and find similarities in words in a bunch of different linguistics. In Sanskrit, ‘Satan’ has a lot of similarities to meaning truth and others have believed that ‘Jehovah’ means evil god, or god of chaos, or god of deception.

At the end of the day, they are just words and names.
 
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