The Gospels in Islam: Authentic or Corrupted?

firedragon said:

Might be is not definitely. They are assumptions.

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Just posted you a verse of the Quran (21:105) quoting the Psalms 37:29; thus you ignore religious texts, and follow the scholars instead, which isn't logical or a believer.

firedragon said:

There is no evidence to say any of this as a whole is contained within the Bible. Its all assumption.

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The Quran confirms the message in those texts, which is the proof just like above; yet since you're determined to reject it all, then really you've already failed at accepting the message - sorry.

In my opinion.

Don't use a modern Bible to compare with the Qur'an- use a version of the Bible that was in use in the late 7th century. That would be the Vulgate, written in Latin. Don't use the NIV or the KJV or the New Upreach Bible for Teens or some such.

Learn Qur'anic Arabic, and then learn Latin. Then compare the two texts and see what happens, and let the chips fall as they may.

Goodman John said:

Don't use a modern Bible to compare with the Qur'an- use a version of the Bible that was in use in the late 7th century. That would be the Vulgate, written in Latin. Don't use the NIV or the KJV or the New Upreach Bible for Teens or some such.

Learn Qur'anic Arabic, and then learn Latin. Then compare the two texts and see what happens, and let the chips fall as they may.

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There is no doubt the best approach is to learn the original languages the sacred texts were written such as Arabic, Hebrew and Greek. Beyond that learning Latin makes sense. However that’s an enormous effort to be able to do that well. Most of us rely on good quality English translations of which there is an abundance. Living a genuine life of faith doesn’t require the learning of several ancient languages for most of us. Same deal with Interfaith dialogue.

wizanda said:

Like I wish we could come to a clearer mutual perspective, I'm not here trying to argue with people, I'm literally mankind's last hope as prophesied in Baha'i writings as well; yet it is set forward, it isn't 1000 years, it was 100, as we have very little time left before the Great Tribulation...

If you question the perspective I was told this as an infant, which has then taken me years to check the details; I'm just trying to help people see it before the end of time, and could do with the help.

Like can't we go over the details in a specific thread of where you don't comprehend it; it could be a record to help others, as this is one of the most prominent platforms for religious discussion on the web.

In my opinion.

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Despite your extreme quirkinesses and unusual ideas I appreciate you have a lot of valuable insights and knowledge. I don’t believe you or anyone else here are humanities last hope but good luck finding others who believe in you.

adrian009 said:

Hi Niblo,

Thank you for your thorough response. We've discussed this topic previously late last year:

Do Baha'i believe Jesus or the Holy Spirit can cure the Leper?

I hope we can discuss these important differences in the way Muslims, Christians and Bahaí's view the NT in the best spirit of interfaith discussion.



As discussed in post #50 above, Muhammad speaks of the Gospel in reference to the Revelation from God through Jesus, in much the same way as God has revealed Himself through Moses via the Torah and through Muhammad Himself wvia the Quran. As expected the meaning of the word Gospel for Christians is NOT based on the Quran and has a number of meanings including reference an account of the Life and Teachings of Christ. So the term Gospel would be applied to each individual account including the first four books of the New Testament. Muhammad doesn't use the Word Injil or Gospel in this manner. However, there is no doubt that each Gospel account the Christian's refer includes the Words allegedly spoken by Jesus. The question then becomes to what extent do these Words recorded in the Gospel reflect what Christ really said or taught?

Recollecting our previous conversation, you believe the NT books contain in part a genuine account of what Jesus really Taught and did. However you believe some of it isn't true and so the NT Gospel accounts have been corrupted. The standard you use to distinguish between what is genuine and what is corrupted is whether or not it contradicts the Holy Quran.



That's certainly one of the most relevant verses from the Holy Quran to discuss the OP question.



The first NT Gospel to be written was probably Mark around 66 - 70 AD. Scholarly opinion varies about authorship and there is no consensus. However the majority of scholars would certainly agree that we don't know who the authors were.



I believe Jesus was given the Injil complete as you do. However I believe everything God intended to relay to humanity He did through the Gospel accounts in the New Testament along with the supporting apostolic letters. I can't see why God would go to all the trouble to reveal Himself and then not leave an account for future generations. Humanity would have been deprived of God's guiding grace for centuries until the advent of Muhammad. God revealed Himself through Muhammad and made provision for protection of what was revealed through the Quran. Why wouldn't He have done so for His Revelation through Jesus?

God willing I'll respond to the rest of your post when I'm able. Thank you once again for your well considered response.

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When Jesus comes down to earth soon
The descent will be in Damascus in front of a church
Opposite a church and this church will be in the eastern lighthouse next to a mosque for Muslims
The first thing that Jesus will see is the cross on the Church
Jesus would be angry because he was promoted to the God
Jesus will break the cross and end a very long stage of misguidance in the truth of Jesus
This is the hadeeth of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him
But that doesn't mean we hate Christians
On the contrary they are our brothers and love them and we wish them good
About myself away from religions
After a long research with older people about the truth of jesus
we find that if there is a God on earth, at the very least it does not come as a baby
Comes directly full
The existence of the human creation of the Divinity contradicts the concept of divinity

I believe that Jesus' birth was abnormal to prove his prophecy and his right to succeed or lead the children of Israel
Leadership as a human leader, not divine
But Jesus in the quran is supported by the Holy Spirit which is Gabriel of angels

j1i said:

When Jesus comes down to earth soon
The descent will be in Damascus in front of a church
Opposite a church and this church will be in the eastern lighthouse next to a mosque for Muslims
The first thing that Jesus will see is the cross on the Church
Jesus would be angry because he was promoted to the God
Jesus will break the cross and end a very long stage of misguidance in the truth of Jesus
This is the hadeeth of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him
But that doesn't mean we hate Christians
On the contrary they are our brothers and love them and we wish them good
About myself away from religions
After a long research with older people about the truth of jesus
we find that if there is a God on earth, at the very least it does not come as a baby
Comes directly full
The existence of the human creation of the Divinity contradicts the concept of divinity

I believe that Jesus' birth was abnormal to prove his prophecy and his right to succeed or lead the children of Israel
Leadership as a human leader, not divine
But Jesus in the quran is supported by the Holy Spirit which is Gabriel of angels

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The whole end times eschatology in Islam regards the Mahdi and Return of Christ is fascinating but outside the scope of this thread. I may start another thread at a later stage to enable a better comparison between Christian and Islamic beliefs.

adrian009 said:

The whole end times eschatology in Islam regards the Mahdi and Return of Christ is fascinating but outside the scope of this thread. I may start another thread at a later stage to enable a better comparison between Christian and Islamic beliefs.

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My friend apologized to you
I miss you and miss you so much

adrian009 said:

There is no doubt the best approach is to learn the original languages the sacred texts were written such as Arabic, Hebrew and Greek. Beyond that learning Latin makes sense. However that’s an enormous effort to be able to do that well. Most of us rely on good quality English translations of which there is an abundance. Living a genuine life of faith doesn’t require the learning of several ancient languages for most of us. Same deal with Interfaith dialogue.

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I agree, that's a huge undertaking for the Average Joe (that would be ME). As for translations, there's the rub- so many translations out there sell themselves as being The Only Correct One, and unless the Average Joe is diligent in doing his homework he may have a rough go of it finding that good quality translation. For myself, I am content with the Douay-Rheims and Vulgate (although I am no Latin scholar by any stretch).

However, for Jesus himself, I go with the Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth as written by Thomas Jefferson. For me it's a great resource, having Jesus' story in one narrative, stripped of all the mystical elements, and focusing on the message and not the man. Of course, to many- if not most- Christians it's likely regarded as an abomination (those who even know about it), but I highly recommend it.

adrian009 said:

good luck finding others who believe in you.

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We never needed people to believe in us; we're down near Hell before Judgement Day, where mankind has already been convinced of a lie...

Which is virtually what this thread is about, people are not smart enough to have already comprehended it on their own, and thus 95% are doomed; we could increase that number by teaching them where they're wrong, if not they all get removed from reality at the Great Tribulation.

We need people to be more logical, and be able to dissect a case properly; which is where I've been sent with the new name of Christ, and it also meaning exegesis (Zand).

The false Gospel of the Pharisees is Anti-Christ's teachings as the Quran is trying to help rectify. The term pseudochristos (G5580) is the same reference number for Sus H5580 Grub or a Beast...

So when in Revelation it says the world follows the Beast, this is the false Gospels about j+sus, which means the "Beast that shall come" in Hebrew; people are just not dealing with the data efficiently, and you keep asking questions surrounding the topic, so why not study it properly, and in the process help educate mankind...

Even just help us understand why someone as smart as you could get convinced to follow something so wrong; I don't get it, you seem so nice.

In my opinion.

wizanda said:

We never needed people to believe in us; we're down near Hell before Judgement Day, where mankind has already been convinced of a lie...

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My view, in a nutshell, is that this world- our physical universe- is 'Hell', being a remoteness from God who dwells in the spiritual realm. it's up to us to recognize this physical realm as a creation of Satan in order to keep us from God, and to strengthen and purify our spirit so that upon our death it may escape this rock and return to God. If we don't manage this, our spirit will have to await another body and have to go through this literal 'Hell on earth' again and again until we get it right. Satan is content to keep us here, for as long as he has spirits- souls- to place in Man he stays in control in his own little kingdom: the physical realm. When the number of redeemed souls surpassed the number of those unredeemed, this physical realm will cease to exist and Satan will be forced back into the spiritual realm to await God's pleasure (Satan warred against God and lost and escaped by creating the physical realm, so yeah, the story is a little off the beaten path). As for those souls that remain unredeemed, they'll either be destroyed or otherwise utterly separated from God. (As such, it's on us to do our utmost to purify ourselves and get our soul strong so it can break free as soon as possible- we don't want to miss that last bus to Paradise!)

adrian009 said:

...and the original manuscripts are based on the oral traditions a few decades before they were written down. The question isn't about whether or not the text was changed but whether or not the text we have reflects the original Teachings of Christ.

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Right, and there is no way to know what the original "teachings" were.

Milton Platt said:

Right, and there is no way to know what the original "teachings" were.

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This does not imply, I hope, that we shouldn't try to reconstruct Jesus' teachings from the texts we DO have, though. I don't think anyone will argue that what we presently have is the 100% correct, no mistakes lessons of Jesus- but what we have is pretty good nonetheless. Until we discover a period-correct document that can be proven to be an eyewitness account- not a second-hand tale- I don't think we can ever be absolutely sure we've got the story right. The best we can do is decide on a version of the story we like and run with it.

wizanda said:

We never needed people to believe in us; we're down near Hell before Judgement Day, where mankind has already been convinced of a lie...

Which is virtually what this thread is about, people are not smart enough to have already comprehended it on their own, and thus 95% are doomed; we could increase that number by teaching them where they're wrong, if not they all get removed from reality at the Great Tribulation.

We need people to be more logical, and be able to dissect a case properly; which is where I've been sent with the new name of Christ, and it also meaning exegesis (Zand).

The false Gospel of the Pharisees is Anti-Christ's teachings as the Quran is trying to help rectify. The term pseudochristos (G5580) is the same reference number for Sus H5580 Grub or a Beast...

So when in Revelation it says the world follows the Beast, this is the false Gospels about j+sus, which means the "Beast that shall come" in Hebrew; people are just not dealing with the data efficiently, and you keep asking questions surrounding the topic, so why not study it properly, and in the process help educate mankind...

Even just help us understand why someone as smart as you could get convinced to follow something so wrong; I don't get it, you seem so nice.

In my opinion.

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dear brother
simply
Can you help me know how the Quran helps the false gospel
What are the teachings of Christ

Goodman John said:

This does not imply, I hope, that we shouldn't try to reconstruct Jesus' teachings from the texts we DO have, though. I don't think anyone will argue that what we presently have is the 100% correct, no mistakes lessons of Jesus- but what we have is pretty good nonetheless. Until we discover a period-correct document that can be proven to be an eyewitness account- not a second-hand tale- I don't think we can ever be absolutely sure we've got the story right. The best we can do is decide on a version of the story we like and run with it.

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I'm an atheist, so my view of the whole Jesus thing is markedly different from yours. However, I wasn't trying to push anyone that way, particularly. I was pointing out that there is absolutely no way to know if anything in the Bible is actually what someone named Jesus said at all. My comment were to point out that saying one needed to understand the "original" teachings is nonsensical.
With regard to your comment, it is on the mark to say that it is not possible to argue that what we have is 100% correct. We essentially agree.
Where we might part ways, is that I believe that once it is understood that the possibility of errors is there, then it is pretty much a free for all as to which verses are correct, and what might have been left out or added by one of the unknown authors of the stories.
I won't go into discussing whether there was a Jesus or even a god here. This particular forum is mostly between believers in various faiths and that sort of discussion belongs in another category.

j1i said:

Can you help me know how the Quran helps the false gospel
What are the teachings of Christ

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The Quran points out that the Jews have manipulated the texts, where they've rejected the Curse of Moses given to them by Christ in the Synoptic Gospels...

Paul the Pharisee infiltrator had rewritten the Curse, creating a new Covenant with Death, which he called the Gospel; whilst telling Gentiles they're grafted on to it, and that Yeshua gave them an inheritance rather than removed it...

Whereas the Quran correctly defines that they were meant to be teaching the Gentiles; Muhammad was given the detail to show where there are errors in comprehension, that have taken place in the Bible account.

So for example:

• Christ and the Quran both taught by our works we're judged.
  
• That we have to be Servants of the God Most High.
  
• That Yeshua came to teach the knowledge of God, not to die as a human sacrifice as they taught.
  
• That those who follow his teachings shall be saved.
  
• That we're not to pray like they hypocrites in public for show.
  
• That sacrifice doesn't mean anything to God.
  
• And loads more, we basically need to put both books together, and list most of it.

In my opinion.

Milton Platt said:

I'm an atheist, so my view of the whole Jesus thing is markedly different from yours. However, I wasn't trying to push anyone that way, particularly. I was pointing out that there is absolutely now way to know if anything in the Bible is actually what someone named Jesus said at all. My comment were to point out that saying one needed to understand the "original" sayings is nonsensical.
With regard to your comment, it is on the mark to say that it is not possible to argue that what we have is 100% correct. We essentially agree.
Where we might part ways, is that I believe that once it is understood that the possibility of errors is there, then it is pretty much a free for all as to which verses are correct, and what might have been left out or added by one of the unknown authors of the stories.
I won't go into discussing whether there was a Jesus or even a god here. This particular forum is mostly between believers in various faiths and that sort of discussion belongs in another category.

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LOL Well, I'm knee-deep in the Cathar faith so I'm at odds with almost all of mainstream Christianity anyway, much less an atheist, but I do my best to see the perspective of others and entertain ideas and conversation from all over the religious (and a-religious) map. I don't think we part ways at all about the notion of what may or may not have been added or dropped from the Bible stories- personally I run with Thomas Jefferson's version of the Bible anyway (at least as far as Jesus' message)- so I don't claim any sort of high ground on that point.

Goodman John said:

Satan warred against God and lost and escaped by creating the physical realm, so yeah, the story is a little off the beaten path

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The narrative you've presented isn't that far out there; I've spent my life looking at religions, so find the same in other ideologies...

You're basically putting forward a concept similar to Samsara (Circle of Rebirth) and Moksha (Liberation), that we're trapped in the Maya, until we come to enlightenment; in my understanding Yeshua was teaching the Dharma, not Judaism.

So when Yeshua says, "make friends of unrighteous mammon, that if you fail you receive ever lasting habitations" (Luke 16:9), I find it to be a similar concept; that if we don't achieve Moksha, we will come back down here into the Maya... So it is always best to be kind, and good down here, regardless if it is near Hell.

In my opinion.

wizanda said:

The Quran points out that the Jews have manipulated the texts, where they've rejected the Curse of Moses given to them by Christ in the Synoptic Gospels...

Paul the Pharisee infiltrator had rewritten the Curse, creating a new Covenant with Death, which he called the Gospel; whilst telling Gentiles they're grafted on to it, and that Yeshua gave them an inheritance rather than removed it...

Whereas the Quran correctly defines that they were meant to be teaching the Gentiles; Muhammad was given the detail to show where there are errors in comprehension, that have taken place in the Bible account.

So for example:

• Christ and the Quran both taught by our works we're judged.
  
• That we have to be Servants of the God Most High.
  
• That Yeshua came to teach the knowledge of God, not to die as a human sacrifice as they taught.
  
• That those who follow his teachings shall be saved.
  
• That we're not to pray like they hypocrites in public for show.
  
• That sacrifice doesn't mean anything to God.
  
• And loads more, we basically need to put both books together, and list most of it.

In my opinion.

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thanks brother for replay
this is kind of you
I hope that my words do not affect your positive psychology
hug
i apologized for the inconvenience


I just want to take note that when the Qur'an criticizes the Jews, it criticizes the sect only and not everyone

But the Qur'an praises the son of Israel in many texts in the Koran and says that God chose them at the time

Concerning the divinity of Christ
I want to know what is the fate of Abraham and the prophets and the righteous before the coming of Christ
You know that the Trinity was not mentioned before the coming of Christ

Many people took the teaching from the prophets and migrated to other continents and lived generations on the basis that the truth of God is that He is one without a Trinity.

I want to know how they will be held accountable on the Day of Judgment according to the Christian concept
What guilt these people have obtained is reliable information from sources inspired by God

As a human being, I am dealing with two contradictory heavenly messages

The first message says that God is one without a Trinity
The Christian message says that God is three

The laws can change, but the main laws do not
Especially Moses' first commandment

I know that dialogue is futile because of the old differences
But I want to emphasize that I love Christians and I want to discuss

Because the Messenger of Allah Muhammad peace be upon him said

The world is cursed, cursed what is in, except the mention of God (worships to god) and a scientist and a researcher of science
& science seeker

GOD bless you

wizanda said:

Just posted you a verse of the Quran (21:105) quoting the Psalms 37:29; thus you ignore religious texts, and follow the scholars instead, which isn't logical or a believer.

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Ignoring your rather low statements and insults I will take that verse.
A lot of people quote this to say Muhammed copied from the Bible. Among of course others as well. Very similar to those who claim the Bible copied from some other book etc etc.

Quran: And We have written in the scripture (alzuboori): “After the remembrance, that the earth will be inherited by My servants who do good.”

Bible-Psalms: The righteous shall inherit the land, And dwell therein for ever.

The parallel theory -
The parallel word for the Hebrew word Saddikim is the arabic word Saddikin. Thats the beauty of sister languages. The word used in the Quran is Salaha. When you say Islaha it means reform. Salihin. Not the real meaning that the Hebrew word Saddikim or the arabic parallel Saddikin means. This is common knowledge. Nothing special.

Also, how about Matthew 5:5 which says "Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth"? Naah. That doesn't make anything. But that word Meek or "composed ones" (praeis) is a better parallel to the word Saliheen than the Hebrew word Saddikim in Psalms 37.

There are many many statements in the Bible that are parallel to the Quran. For example, eye for an eye tooth for a tooth. But the ideas are very different if you read them both. And these things are no reason to assess that this and that is matching and that makes it the book as quoted in another book. Thats an absurd assessment.

Anyway, what you have done is get hooked on the word Righteous. The English word righteous. Just like Christliches Ahrens who you have quoted in your wikipedia link provided. His theory is what you propagate. But you have not understood the intricacies of what he proposes because your assessment is based on the English word "Righteous". Wrong assessment. Misplaced. Long time ago people like Arthur Jeffrey and in modern times Said Reynolds quote Ahrens in their work. What he said was that there are parallels and this is one. But there's more to it than just using an English word Righteous and saying this makes your case.

There are mainly three things that you would translate as righteous.
1. One is Saddikin the same as the Biblical Saddikim. The root meaning of this is truth, confirmation, innocent, just. One word translation is the word "righteous" because its easy. Or you have to explain it.

2. The second one is Salihin which is also sometimes translated as righteous but it in its root means someone who is trying to reform. When you think from the arabic word its a different connotation.

3. The third is Muththakeen. The root Thakiyya in its root means "that sense in you that makes you do the right thing and stops you from doing the wrong thing". In English you could translate it as righteous but it means a sense as I explained. Its difficult to give one word to it. Thats why a lot of people translate it as "God conscious". Its that consciousness.

One has to understand the root of the arabic language to get this bit clearly. All three of these words are there in the Quran and depending on the translation mostly all three words have been translated as "righteous". So you have got hooked onto this English word and not the Arabic word which is different to the Psalm 37. And your most prominent argument is based on one single parallel you think is paramount.

Compare the verses.

Quran: And We have written in the scripture (alzuboori): “After the remembrance, that the earth will be inherited by My servants who do good (Salihoon).”

Bible-Psalms: The righteous (Sadhdhikim) shall inherit the land, And dwell therein for ever.

1. After the Dhikr part is not there in the biblical narrative.
2. They shall dwell forever part is not there in the Quran.
3. It is a different word Salihoon vs Sadhdhikin. Not parallel.

This is almost a desperate attempt.

The Qurans message is that there is a day of reckoning. A lot of things will happen. And the dhikr, the reminder will come. And after that, the earth or ardh will be for those people who reform, do good. What the Quran says in this verse is that it was written in the Zaboor. It is not pointing to the Psalms in the Bible. Psalms in the Bible could be an inherited name like Torah and this is a common theme. Any book in the Bible could and probably does pick up remnants from what was revealed earlier. Any book. That does not make it the revelation. Psalms has a lot of descriptions about who will inherit the land. The blessed of God, the humble, the patient ones who wait for the lord, etc. Isiah also has a parallel to the Psalms where it says the righteous shall inherit the land. The Psalms in the Bible may be inheriting from the original psalms. Of course. Maybe it inherited many things. A lot of things. A few things. We don't know. But this is not at all the exact Psalms that was revealed to David.

Psalms

When did King David live? According to the Bible? 1,000 BC? Did he write about being in exile? Did he narrate about being in exile? Why would the psalms then lament about being in exile? When were they exiled to Babylon? 5th century BC? In that case did David narrate or write the Psalms half a millennium after he lived? The biblical story about David doesn't have anything to do with an exile to Babylon. And it is not a prediction but a lamentations of a man or a poet who was writing about a people in exile in the Iraqi peninsula. A lamentation about being conquered, exiled to a land far away, their bitterness and anger towards the edomites who sided with the Babylonian conquerers. That was not written or narrated by David. It was written half a millennium later by a scribe. By the sound of the lament some argue that it was written after the people were allowed to return to their home Judah which would have been after 538 BC with the Persian conquest of Babylon because the Psalms note that people were persecuted and made to hang their musical instruments which may mean they were not allowed to enjoy and be poetic so they had to wait for freedom. But anyway that only shows that it may have been written anytime somewhere around 587 BC to after 538 BC. So was it written after Jeremiah which mentions the deportation of people to Babylon? Which one?

Peace.

firedragon said:

A lot of people quote this to say Muhammed copied from the Bible. Among of course others as well. Very similar to those who claim the Bible copied from some other book etc etc.

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It isn't a copy, if we read the prophets, a true prophet paraphrases the others by definition; if we study both text this is very clear.

firedragon said:

Also, how about Matthew 5:5 which says "Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth"?

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This is also paraphrasing as true prophets do.

firedragon said:

But the ideas are very different if you read them both.

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The ideas are the same, else it is stating the Quran is fake... It is a confirmation of the message.

firedragon said:

What the Quran says in this verse is that it was written in the Zaboor. It is not pointing to the Psalms in the Bible.

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21:105 paraphrases the Psalms, it has a word that can mean the Psalms within it...

Sorry this is really stupid, the Psalms confirm what is in the Quran; only someone who isn't reading any of it, and is in state of denial of the things of God could reject all of it.

firedragon said:

In that case did David narrate or write the Psalms half a millennium after he lived?

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David was a prophet speaking for God; the problem with the comprehension is a prophet foretells the future.

4:150-151 Indeed, those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers and wish to discriminate between Allah and His messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in others," and wish to adopt a way in between - Those are the disbelievers, truly. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.

In my opinion.