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Morality Without The Bible and Homosexuality

C

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
leov said:
It is adaptation to existance, is homo. sex so?
Click to expand...
Yep.
Simple as that.

For whatever reason(it certainly wasn't my choice) I am far more inclined to romantic intimacy with other guys. I've adapted to that reality.
Tom
 
leov

leov

Well-Known Member
columbus said:
Nobody is suggesting any such thing.

But if the 5% or so of humans who are gay have nonprocreative sex, and thereby reduce the population problem a tiny bit, that would be good for all of humanity.
Tom
Click to expand...
I do not judge this part, I just stated that homosex. serves no purpose except hedonic pleasure. I do not condemn that either.
 
leov

leov

Well-Known Member
TagliatelliMonster said:
:rolleyes:

We are animals.
Anything we do, be it unique for the human species or not, will be of "animal level".

Please note that whenever the word "animal" is mentioned in context of biology, then that word includes humans.

Also, engaging in gay sex is just as much "animal level" as engaging in hetero sex.
Click to expand...
I admire animals, but I am not one.
 
sealchan

sealchan

Well-Known Member
NewGuyOnTheBlock said:
There are a lot of topics and I don't want to be here for an hour, so I will be brief.



There are exceptions to "killing is wrong" as many will agree; but the bottom line is that killing others takes something from them that is not ours to take. It hurts people.



Stealing is wrong because it is ultimately dishonest and takes something from another that is not yours to take. It hurts people.



Children need guidance of those older and wiser. Children need adult supervision for their survival. Children need to be taught the rules of society so that they can exist within those rules and have a good life.



Bearing false witness ruins another person's reputation and life. It hurts people.



Sexual abuse is wrong because it hurts people.



Where polygamy is practiced, there is a direct correlation to misogyny and denial of women's rights. There seems to be a correlation here that is difficult to ignore. I value "informed consent" so it can be successfully argued that if all members were consensual to this arrangement, another has no right to tell them they can't live this way. I'd like to subscribe to that idea, but not until there is a way to unlink the link so explained.



Fidelity and faithfulness builds trust and happy, healthy marriages. People in these arrangements tend to be happier.



IN short, if everyone pursued these values, the world would be a better place.



It hurts people and other living creatures.

I find it curious that the moral outrage against homosexuality can not be explained without invoking religion, yet so many still insist it is immoral.
Click to expand...

I can put it even more succinctly...conscience and empathy. We feel bad when we do these things because our brains are wired to understand that we are one of those whom we identify as an "other". Biological, evolutionary morality.
 
C

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
leov said:
I do not judge this part, I just stated that homosex. serves no purpose except hedonic pleasure. I do not condemn that either.
Click to expand...
I would completely disagree that a committed couple enjoying sex, regardless of their interest in making babies, is merely hedonistic pleasure. Sex certainly does serving other purposes.
Perhaps you don't quite catch the derogatory meaning of hedonism in the English language.

But if you don't condemn it, either, then what is your point?
Tom
 
sealchan

sealchan

Well-Known Member
TagliatelliMonster said:
The anticipated "response" here, is something like "...but why is it wrong to hurt people?"
That's usually the response I get from "divine command theory" proponents.


I tend to simply point out to them that if morality isn't about "rules of conduct" of which the purpose is to increase well-being and decrease avoidable suffering for all sentient beings, then I don't know what they mean when the talk about "morality".
The really stubborn then tend to come back with "but why is it important to increase well-being and avoid suffering"?

When you continue to zoom in on their underlying reasoning, it is revealed that in their view, if you remove their God of choice, what is left is nihilism where nothing has meaning, where nothing is of any value or worth and where nothing matters.

You can't argue with minds like that, which are pretty much indistinguishable from psychopathy / sociopathy.
They will not see the sense and reasonableness of your posts and arguments, because their idea of "moral behavior" comes down to mere obedience to a perceived authority in some kind of "might makes right" ideology.

Their foundation for moral reasoning is inherently bankrupt and/or corrupt. Unless they fix that, no sensible discussion on morals can be held with them.


(btw: I'm not accusing @InChrist is like that... we'll see how he responds)
Click to expand...

Actually, I might argue that this psychology is true of anyone but for a person with a traditional faith, it is easier to expose this nihilistic fear.

Do we all cling to some faith assumption, even if it is not religious dogma, in order to rescue ourselves from some sort o nihilistic despair?
 
TagliatelliMonster

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
leov said:
I do not judge this part, I just stated that homosex. serves no purpose except hedonic pleasure. I do not condemn that either.
Click to expand...


"no purpose" <> "except for"

In other words, it DOES serve a purpose.

It serves the exact same purposes as heterosexual sex other then procreation.
Because yes, heterosexual sex is also about MUCH more then just procreation...
 
leov

leov

Well-Known Member
columbus said:
I would completely disagree that a committed couple enjoying sex, regardless of their interest in making babies, is merely hedonistic pleasure. Sex certainly does serving other purposes.
Perhaps you don't quite catch the derogatory meaning of hedonism in the English language.

But if you don't condemn it, either, then what is your point?
Tom
Click to expand...
Question was what is wrong with homosex. I do not like it but recognize people's right to engage in h. , provided there is no harm involved( like rape, e.t.c).
 
TagliatelliMonster

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
TagliatelliMonster

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
sealchan said:
Actually, I might argue that this psychology is true of anyone but for a person with a traditional faith, it is easier to expose this nihilistic fear.

Do we all cling to some faith assumption, even if it is not religious dogma, in order to rescue ourselves from some sort o nihilistic despair?
Click to expand...

No, I don't think so.

Regardless, my larger point is that the discussion on the topic with such minds, is not a level playing field.
What such minds discuss is not "morality". It rather is "obedience" in a "might makes right" scenario.

In reasoned morality, morality is concluded.
In "divine command theory", morality is imposed by a perceived authority.

So trying to reason about morality with such people is an exercise in futility, because they do not recognise morality as being something that is concluded through a reasoning process.

To quote Dr Gregory House: "You can't reason someone out of a position that he didn't reason himself into in the first place".

Before one can discuss specific things in terms of the morality thereof, one needs to agree on what morality actually is first.
 
Jainarayan

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
leov said:
If you stop natural law procreation, what would happen to humanity? If you stop homosexual sex , what would happen to humanity?
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There are really no words to describe how absurd those comments are. You seem to be indicating that it's a choice to stop procreating and to have same-sex relations. You do realize that a percentage of humans have been homosexual for the entire 200,000 years of our existence, right?
 
Jainarayan

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
leov said:
I do not judge this part, I just stated that homosex. serves no purpose except hedonic pleasure. I do not condemn that either.
Click to expand...

You have heard of birth control, right? That's used when heterosexual couples want to have sex because it's fun and feels good, without procreating.
 
TagliatelliMonster

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
leov said:
Only commonality in body design.
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No.

The commonalities, are in fact all the properties that defines what an animal is.
Just like the commonalities with other mammals is what makes us mammals.


It is impossible to come up with a definition of "animal" that includes all animals, yet excludes humans.

Because we ARE animals.
Just like we ARE multi-cellular eukaryotes.
Just like we ARE vertebrates.
And mammals.
And primates.
 
Jainarayan

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
leov said:
I do not like it
Click to expand...

Then don't do it. Simple as that. :shrug:

Unless I tell you or show you a video, do you ever know how and when I have sex?

Exactly, you don't. That's how much it affects anyone else.
 
A Vestigial Mote

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
leov said:
If you stop natural law procreation, what would happen to humanity? If you stop homosexual sex , what would happen to humanity?
Click to expand...
This does not matter a bit. It is about what can happen in nature, and what does happen to some people's modes of attraction IN NATURE. If we were all homosexual, there'd be a problem since we are a sexually-reproducing species... but WE'RE NOT ALL HOMOSEXUAL, so this isn't really a valid gripe with homosexuality. It doesn't hold water, and it isn't a problem. Is it? Is it really a problem we're facing right now? That "too many people" are homosexual? Come on now... is it? Will you even answer that question, or answer it honestly?

IS IT CURRENTLY A PROBLEM THAT TOO MANY PEOPLE ARE HOMOSEXUAL, AND ARE WE FACING THIS "EXTINCTION" YOU SEEM SO CONCERNED ABOUT?

Be honest with yourself. If the above were truly your concern, then you would ALSO HAVE TO BE CHASTISING ANY PEOPLE WHO PURPOSEFULLY DECIDED NOT TO HAVE KIDS.
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
NewGuyOnTheBlock said:
In another thread, the topic of homosexuality is being discussed. In the condemnation of homosexuality, I satated:



To which, @InChrist stated:



So, I will start this thread.
Click to expand...

I ask this many of times. No. Christian has answered me. Even on another site I go, I asked it. They ignored me.

Of course homosexual behavior (not homosexuality) according to scripture is a sin.

But is there a reason that it is
And that it is along side murder and theft?

I'll call in my cards once I know
 
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