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What did our dear rabbi Jesus say that shocked the world with unprecedented knowledge

Audie

Veteran Member
He taught that slaves should obey their masters, that women were second rate citizens, that you should kill fig trees if they don't have fruit on them and you happen to be hungry, That the way to treat schizophrenia is to "put the demons into pigs".........

I was trying to explain the concept of falsification
or disproof to one of your creos, but I dont think
he likes where it goes.

There are some fine words of wisdom that come
to us, presented as from "Jesus". None appear to
be unique, but rather are typical of folk wisdom from
around the world and through time.

Now, sure, "Jesus" or whatever his name was, COULD
have been "god", in some way. And he could have
offered up recipes for bagels, and tips on housecleaning.
Why not? "God" can do as it pleases.

BUT, if the idea is that Jesus was god, and was
so freaking wise and giving good tips on important
things, he was a rather silly trickster god.

Surely a more helpful fellow would have gone with
something like-

"Hey, mental illness is NOT about daemons!!!"
Figure out how to really treat people!!

If you cannot disprove the notion that "Jesus" was
all wise with your examples, you are dealing with
someone who, like our frozen mammoth guy, is
simply immune to common sense.
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
I remember how a Charismatic preacher had me on my knees pushing me on my forehead, asking "Do you feel it?"
He told everyone when I said yes, The Holy Ghost entered into him.
This was in 1989 and that was when I found the roots of atheism.
Realising how these false preachers and money collecters deceived everyone, drove me way aware of deception.

It's too bad you ran into a phony, but there's the real thing too. I know. I've experienced it.

You quit too soon.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Good, so by your own admission I was right.
You never read the Bible, yet you critisize the Biblical God.
You're being hyperbolic... I read MOST of The Bible. I read from Genesis through 3/4 and then decided to skip to Revelations because I had heard it was interesting and was hoping it might live up to the hype - unlike the first 3/4 I had read. And besides this, I have read particular passages and their contexts time and time again due to people I debate with quoting them to me and insisting that I simply "don't understand." I have also sat through hundreds of church services and in those sermons and messages I have heard hundreds more (or the same) passages read and interpretations given. Say all you want that I "don't know The Bible" or that I haven't read it. I honestly don't care. I believe I have read and heard enough to come to my judgments in good conscience.

Well, I will never say Einstein was a fool, because I am not a scientist and never read what Einstein wrote.
Therefore, all I can say is, perhaps Einstein was correct, or perhaps he was wrong. But I will be a fool to say he is wrong because it sounds as if he is telling fables in assuming that when travelling close to the speed of light, Time will stand still, and length will contract.
Fine for you. You don't feel confident coming to any conclusions or judgments about that subject matter. This is unlike how I feel about my experience with The Bible itself and the people who preach from it. And I can still say "perhaps Christianity is correct" - though I can also still acknowledge that the evidence to support it being correct is JUST NOT THERE.
You on the other hand deny the Biblical God and you dont even know who He is.
And you do? How could you possibly? Because you read a book? Because someone else told you? Do you think that a person who reads Einstein's work "knows" Einstein, the man? Do you think that what you have heard about from others gives you intimate knowledge of Einstein? Give me a break.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
By telling me what Jesus said when you never read what he said?
it is like explaining me the theory of general Relativity, when you never heard about it before.
EMPTY!
I did read what Jesus said. In fact, I read it AGAIN when you posted your verses from The Bible. You need to stop telling me what I have and haven't done. You obviously have no idea.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
He taught that slaves should obey their masters, that women were second rate citizens, that you should kill fig trees if they don't have fruit on them and you happen to be hungry, That the way to treat schizophrenia is to "put the demons into pigs".........
I somehow skipped your post.
And the word slave is obviously a wrong translation and was actually servants.
And jesus might have spoken to women as women in the first century, but you dont evn know that Jesus said Women and Men are equal in the everlasting life.
You will not be a man, and women not female.
No sex difference, no marraige etc. How did you miss out on that?
Oh I forgot, you never read the Bible.
And the Fig Trees???
...Hypothetical....???
Oh I also forgot you are Hypothetical deluded.
And you know what?
Jesus was able to heal people with schitsophrenia, and if it was in the shape of daemons entering into swine from someone who was very sick his whole life, I say, you go Jesus!
Funny how you even have the audacity to critisize a nice act like this with your haters and sour opinion due to your bias against Jesus.
Now, what are you saying?
Because Jesus healed the sick, and raised the dead, you dont want to accept that it can be done here on Earth by us humans!
Therefore you will deny Jesus' miracles, because it is un natural for a man to do it.
When I say, but Jesus was God, you deny that also, because a man can not rise people from the dead and heal their schitsophrenia with cursing a daemon?

Sounds like circular reasing at best to suit your opinion.
In your reasoning, Jesus be damned if He did, and Damned if he didnot.
Nice going pal.
"You are saved if you believe in Me, but already damned if you deny Me!"
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Wow!
Thank you for all of that.
I need to take that in slowly.
Do you think it possible that Galilean peasants might have seen a person like Jesus as a magi or amazing person? If so, what word would they have used in Eastern Aramaic?
I would look to your own books to figure out what the the NT authors wanted people to see him as, since those authors were writing for those people.
Magi are Zoroastrian priests.
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
What did our dear rabbi Jesus say that shocked the world with unprecedented knowledge?

No supernatural magic, that's cheating.

There is no verifiable evidence that Jesus actually did and said the things the gospel writers claim for him. He died a good while before the gospels were written.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
There is no verifiable evidence that Jesus actually did and said the things the gospel writers claim for him. He died a good while before the gospels were written.

Ifn they'd make up the nativity story, then no telling
what they'd make up.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Well, I think you've got that wrong.
The people around Jesus thought he was a magi.
I think that can be shown ........... but who wants to read such things?
The people in Jonestown, Guyana thought a lot of things about their hero, Jim Jones. And were willing to die for their beliefs.
Tom
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I would look to your own books to figure out what the the NT authors wanted people to see him as, since those authors were writing for those people.
Magi are Zoroastrian priests.
OK...... but I wasn't interested in what NT authors thought.
I just wondered what Galilean peasants would have thought about any extremely clever or wonderful person. I wonder if they called him a Nagar, or nagarra?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
The people in Jonestown, Guyana thought a lot of things about their hero, Jim Jones. And were willing to die for their beliefs.
Tom
Examples like yours could be legion in number.
I reckon that Galilean peasants would have been quite superstitious, and any remarkable person could soon have been regarded as either sorcerer, or nagar, or magi etc (although @Tumah reckons that 'magi' was only used for Zoroastrian very wise folks (?)
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
There is no verifiable evidence that Jesus actually did and said the things the gospel writers claim for him. He died a good while before the gospels were written.
Bingo.

If Jesus and His followers believed that He was the Messiah, then His goal would have been driving out the pagan oppressors from Judea.

That anti Roman sentiment would get you crucified. As we all know.
Even admitting to being a follower of such an anti-imperialist would get you executed. As happened to many of Jesus's followers.

But, of course, nobody is going to write down evidence that they are followers of an anti Roman terrorist. So you won't find that in a Scriptural verse written before about 100ad. Nor would the Christian followers have said anything like that to Saul of Tarsus, given that he regularly persecuted anti Romans to death.
So Saul/Paul created a whole new religion based on an idealized version of Jesus, now referred to as Christianity.
Tom
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
OK...... but I wasn't interested in what NT authors thought.
I just wondered what Galilean peasants would have thought about any extremely clever or wonderful person.
I have no idea. Why would you think they would care about any clever or wonderful person? There was clothes to mend and fields to plow.

I wonder if they called him a Nagar, or nagarra?
I don't see why they would call him either of those unless that was his profession.

Examples like yours could be legion in number.
I reckon that Galilean peasants would have been quite superstitious, and any remarkable person could soon have been regarded as either sorcerer, or nagar, or magi etc (although @Tumah reckons that 'magi' was only used for Zoroastrian very wise folks (?)
It's not just me. Magi are the Zoroastrian priestly class. That's just what they're called.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
I somehow skipped your post.
And the word slave is obviously a wrong translation and was actually servants.
And jesus might have spoken to women as women in the first century, but you dont evn know that Jesus said Women and Men are equal in the everlasting life.
You will not be a man, and women not female.
No sex difference, no marraige etc. How did you miss out on that?
Oh I forgot, you never read the Bible.
And the Fig Trees???
...Hypothetical....???
Oh I also forgot you are Hypothetical deluded.
And you know what?
Jesus was able to heal people with schitsophrenia, and if it was in the shape of daemons entering into swine from someone who was very sick his whole life, I say, you go Jesus!
Funny how you even have the audacity to critisize a nice act like this with your haters and sour opinion due to your bias against Jesus.
Now, what are you saying?
Because Jesus healed the sick, and raised the dead, you dont want to accept that it can be done here on Earth by us humans!
Therefore you will deny Jesus' miracles, because it is un natural for a man to do it.
When I say, but Jesus was God, you deny that also, because a man can not rise people from the dead and heal their schitsophrenia with cursing a daemon?

Sounds like circular reasing at best to suit your opinion.
In your reasoning, Jesus be damned if He did, and Damned if he didnot.
Nice going pal.
"You are saved if you believe in Me, but already damned if you deny Me!"


As to the slavery issue...slavery is the correct term to describe the condition whereby someone can purchase another human being and have them as personal property to be passed down to his heirs, which was the case in the Bible.

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

So, if the slave lives for at least a day or two before he dies from the beating, no punishment of the owner is required because the slave is the owners PROPERTY.

Exodus 21:1-36 ESV /
“Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone. But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ ...

Special dispensation for a Hebrew slave only. But even then, the owner can keep his wife and children. Does this sound like a servant???

Deuteronomy 15:16-17 ESV /
But if he says to you, ‘I will not go out from you,’ because he loves you and your household, since he is well-off with you, then you shall take an awl, and put it through his ear into the door, and he shall be your slave forever. And to your female slave you shall do the same.

Deuteronomy 20:14 ESV /
But the women and the little ones, the livestock, and everything else in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as plunder for yourselves. And you shall enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the Lord your God has given you.

Leviticus 25:45[edit]
Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

Leviticus 25:46[edit]
And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

Leviticus 25:44[edit]
Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

There is never a justification for owning another human being as property. And to try and justify or minimize such acts in the Bible is to abandon the moral high ground.

Demons do not cause schizophrenia!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I do not actually believe Jesus healed the sick anymore than I believe present day "faith healers" heal the sick.
My reasoning is not circular. The purpose was to point out that the writers of the Bible story didn't even know the cause of mental illness and attributed it to demon possession. How is that circular?

Yes, you can assert that Jesus was god and rose from the dead and turned water into wine, etc. But you have no credible evidence to support those assertions.

We can heal the sick...with modern medicine. We cannot heal the sick by praying or other such woo. We cannot raise the dead, period.
Once all brain activity ceases, there is no coming back.

I was not addressing sexual equality in some supposed afterlife. I was addressing the fact that women in ancient Israel were treated like property and had fewer rights and less personal freedom than men. Stop trying to redirect.

I don't hate Jesus. I don't even know if he existed.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I have no idea. Why would you think they would care about any clever or wonderful person? There was clothes to mend and fields to plow.
Now that is a very interesting answer!
And so the vast majority of the Galilean people (if not all?) were poor and very hard worked peasants who had lkittle time for other than hardship and toil? Yes!
And when they trekked to Jerusalem for redemption with sacrifice they were ripped off by the locals for bed and board, ripped off at the Temple for currency exchange, probably ripped off for sacrificial offering purchases (since their own offerings could be condemned) and thoroughly insulted by having to even touch the Temple coinage.....

Yes..... I think that they had a very poor lifestyle throughout, and that is why both the Baptist and (later) Jesus offered mercy, cleansing, repentance and redemption for absolutely nothing. Jesus was for 'Mercy and not sacrifice'.

But if Jesus could assist further with cures, possibly using auto-suggestive techniques, and other amazing actions, yes, a poor, humbled superstitious people would very soon talk about a very wise and magical kind of person.

I like your suggestion that the Galileans were fully occupied with toil.

I don't see why they would call him either of those unless that was his profession.
People would today. People did in the past. People would have back then, and before. Any person with unexplainable abilities can be revered as 'very special'.


It's not just me. Magi are the Zoroastrian priestly class. That's just what they're called.
OK..... but they certainly lost the exclusive rights to that title.

It would appear that a long time before the early 1st century the Persian word Magush (magician?) had been adopted by the Greeks with their Magos, and by the Romans with their Magus, and so similar meanings for magical or amazing people had stretched far and wide.

But I am interested in how a very superstitious group of peasant classes would have perceived a very wise and amazing person. For instance, Professor Dominic Crosson came to the perception that Jesus was probably a ;'Magic for Meal' Sage. The word 'magic', 'sage', 'miracle worker' feature regularly in the perceptions of the scholars.

But if you think that Galilean peasants were humdrum toilers without any superstitions or other interests then I can only say that they would have been the only people ever to have been so focused upon 'drudgery of survival'.

I'm fairly comfortable with the perception that Jesus (and the Baptist) was considered to be a very very wise and magical person. :)
 
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