Nowhere in the Bible does it say or infer that mary the Mother of Christ...

rstrats said:

Sandra Jayne,
re: "I think you are 'reading' too much into what Jesus said to John, he was pretty much saying I am going to die so you go and be as a mother to John and John you be as a son to my mother."

As I asked metis, what version do you have that says it was John?

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rstrats said:

Sandra Jayne,
re: "I think you are 'reading' too much into what Jesus said to John, he was pretty much saying I am going to die so you go and be as a mother to John and John you be as a son to my mother."

As I asked metis, what version do you have that says it was John?

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You are correct, no bible I can find says it was John, I assumed that to be the case because of what metis said, I should have checked.
From what I can discover it is an assumption because of what is said in other scriptures that John was the favourite of Jesus but really there is no evidence it was John, could have been any of the disciples.

Sandra Jayne said:

Why would anyone want Mary to pray for them,

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Why would anyone not want someone to pray for them as part & parcel of the "communion of saints"?

Sandra Jayne said:

I think you are 'reading' too much into what Jesus said to John,

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Maybe yes, but maybe you're reading too little into what Jesus said to John as the wording just doesn't refer to John taking Mary in, plus there's what's said by Elizabeth in the Magnificat.

Sandra Jayne said:

Whatever you may claim many Catholics I meet refer to Mary far more often than to Jesus or Yahweh.

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Well, I can't control what someone else may or may not do, but let me just mention that it you actually read the liturgy of the mass, normally there's only one or two references to Mary, and they involve asking Mary to pray for us. The entire remainder of the 1+ hour mass involves myriads of prayers and songs to God.

Sandra Jayne said:

Mary didn't remain a virgin and Jesus is no longer a babe in arms and all worship should go to God because as He admits He is a jealous God.

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The "brothers" mention in the NT may actually involve male cousins, as that word in Koine Greek can also refer to them. However, I don't lose any sleep over this one way or another. Sometimes folklore can get injected into scripture.

As Catholics, we tend to heavily use meditative and contemplative techniques that are also built into the mass itself through delays. When I go to some other churches (I used to teach a comparative religions course), there usually are not those kind of opportunities. I mention this because, as Catholics, we tend to use various techniques that can stimulate meditation and contemplation, and the Rosary especially involves heavy emphasis on that.

Finally, if you don't like what we do, then maybe don't go to a mass, But if you are at all curious, maybe go to one and count how many times Mary is mentioned versus God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

We do what we believe is right, which I assume you do as well, but the difference is that I don't criticize what you believe and do during your services. I grew up in a fundamentalist Protestant church whereas I frequently heard attacks on Catholicism, and yet I have never heard even once a priest attack Protestants or any other religious groups in over 50 years of attending mass.

Anyhow, take care.

Sandra Jayne said:

From what I can discover it is an assumption because of what is said in other scriptures that John was the favourite of Jesus

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Exactly, plus there's the matter of Church tradition that Paul said we should follow.

Sandra Jayne,
re: "From what I can discover it is an assumption because of what is said in other scriptures that John was the favourite of Jesus..."

What scriptures say that John was the favorite of the Messiah?

rstrats said:

Sandra Jayne,
re: "I think you are 'reading' too much into what Jesus said to John, he was pretty much saying I am going to die so you go and be as a mother to John and John you be as a son to my mother."

As I asked metis, what version do you have that says it was John?

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And why would Jesus entrust his mother into the care of his beloved disciple, when she had a husband, 'Cleophas, who is also called Alpheaus, the carpenter, who is the father of James the brother of Jesus, four sons, Joseph, James the younger, Simeon and Jude, plus daughters?

Matthew 13:55-56 55"Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56Aren't all his sisters with us?

Sandra Jayne said:

You are correct, no bible I can find says it was John, I assumed that to be the case because of what metis said, I should have checked.
From what I can discover it is an assumption because of what is said in other scriptures that John was the favourite of Jesus but really there is no evidence it was John, could have been any of the disciples.

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What you should have said was; "Nowhere in any bible can I find where it is revealed that John is the beloved apostle of Jesus."

Try again, it is there.

rstrats said:

Sandra Jayne,
re: "From what I can discover it is an assumption because of what is said in other scriptures that John was the favourite of Jesus..."

What scriptures say that John was the favorite of the Messiah?

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If you don't know where it is revealed in scripture that John is the beloved apostle of Jesus, it is obvious that you have never studied the Holy Scriptures.

The Anointed,
re: "If you don't know where it is revealed in scripture that John is the beloved apostle of Jesus, it is obvious that you have never studied the Holy Scriptures.

So you don't know either. Perhaps someone else does.

rstrats said:

The Anointed,
re: "If you don't know where it is revealed in scripture that John is the beloved apostle of Jesus, it is obvious that you have never studied the Holy Scriptures.

So you don't know either. Perhaps someone else does.

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Nice try to belittle me, but even at that you're a dismal failure, as you are in your scriptural knowledge.

Try reading John 21: 20-24; The book which was written by others from the memoirs recorded by John.

The Anointed,
re: "... you're a dismal failure..."

Story of my life.

Terry Sampson said:

@Jonathan Bailey , your objections to the Roman Catholic Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary the God-bearer have been noted, recorded, and sent to our Holy Father, Pope Francis. You should be receiving the Pope's summons soon, ordering you to report to Rome to answer charges of heresy. You would do well to study the Church's teachings regarding the Doctrine at issue in the meantime. Take care, Terry Sampson

Biblical Support for Mary’s Immaculate Conception

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Terry Sampson,
That could very well have happened in the Dark Ages, but the Pope does not have the power to murder people like he did during the Crusades.

Shad said:

Nope. Only logically possible. God can not make a squared circle for example.

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Shad,
Of course you know that Jesus was saying that God could do anything, because, with a play on words, there are many things that God cannot do. God cannot lie, Hebrews 6:18, Titus 1:2. Of course Jesus was saying that God can do anything that He wants to do.
With play of words; God cannot make a rock too heavy for Him to lift. Also, God cannot sin!!! I even doubt that God could make a Son better than Jesus. Even the Almighty would have to strain to do that!!! Agape!!!

Jonathan Bailey said:

was conceived and born without original sin nor that she was absolutely free of any personal sin. I do believe she was a woman of distinct honor, having been deemed fit by God to bear His only begotten Son, and was saved and that she is forever in heaven. The Roman Catholics can't accept that the "Mother of God" is anything less than perfect and absolutely sinless from her own conception. God made Jesus perfect and sinless in the womb of Mary and free of original sin by the miracle of His divine workings. The holy seed (sperm) of God makes Jesus Christ perfect and absolutely sinless.


Does the Bible say that Mary, mother of Jesus, was born without sin?


To me, Mary herself addressed this issue in the words of the Magnificat (the song of praise that she spoke in response to the greeting of her cousin Elizabeth (the mother of John the Baptist) when Mary went to visit her immediately after Mary had been informed by the angel Gabriel that she was to be the mother of the Messiah). Mary began by saying (Luke 1:46-47), "My soul exalts the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior." If she had truly been without both original and actual sin, she would have had no need to either have or acknowledge a Savior.

She also said in Luke 1:48-50, "For, behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed, for He (God) has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.” Had Mary been totally without sin, she would have had no need to either receive or accept mercy (that is, undeserved favor or forgiveness) from God.

In addition, the Bible records occasions when Mary was mildly rebuked by Jesus Himself for actions or requests that, had she been totally without sin and shared Jesus' complete knowledge of and devotion to His Father's will, she should not have performed or asked (Luke 2:49-50 and John 2:3-4).

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Jonathan Bailey
There is much to learn about sin and death, that few have stopped to meditate on. Please consider
Today, it seems, true Christians do not die from the sins they commit. Remember Jesus died to take away sins. Jesus died before Mary did which means she would still be alive today if she had not inherited sin from Adam and Eve. This is still in force today, True Christians die from inherited sin, not the sins they commit!!!
If you want to get the full understanding of sin, read and meditate on Hebrews, chapters 9&10.
In these chapters there is a contrast between people under the Mosaic Law Covenant and ones living under the New Covenant, instituted at the Lord’s Evening Meal. Under the Mosaic Law Covenant no one was completely freed from sin, because the blood of goats and bulls could not free a human from sin, Hebrews 9:6-9, 11-28. Hebrews 10:1-11. Now consider, closely Hebrews 10:14, by one offering Jesus has made Perfect, FOREVER, those ho are Sanctified. Perfect Forever means, to God these do not sin, because, Jesus has already died for their sins, so God does not charge them, or even remember their sin. Notice 1John 3:6-9, Hebrews 10:16-18. So, because Jesus has already given his life for our sins, God does not even consider or remember a person’s sins who are true Christians. Consider also, verses Hebrews 9:24-28, here telling about the Coming of Jesus, a second time, NOT to take away sins but to bring Salvation to those who are waiting for him.
When Jesus died, he died for all sins, the past, present and future, making all who follow him to be Perfect Forever , Hebrews 10:14. If we all were not descendants of Adam, death would have stopped at Jesus death, for all true Christians, Acts 4:2.
Agape!!!

I do not believe Mary was sinless, or divine in her own right in any way. I believe Mary was simply a young girl, like any other young girl, who got pregnant (by someone very human) and had to be married off to avoid embarrassment to her family: enter Joseph, Mary's senior by multiple decades, being chosen to marry her. Joseph, upon finding out Mary is already pregnant, plans to ditch her in some backwater town but is convinced otherwise. In time, Jesus is born- perfectly normally- and grows up normally like any other very human baby boy.

HOWEVER, the spirit within Jesus- placed in him at conception- is a particularly strong one, being the Christ. Jesus is not the Christ himself, but the Christ is within him. But that's a different story.

12jtartar said:

When Jesus died, he died for all sins, the past, present and future, making all who follow him to be Perfect Forever , Hebrews 10:14. If we all were not descendants of Adam, death would have stopped at Jesus death, for all true Christians, Acts 4:2.
Agape!!!

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Only those who continue to so firmly believe in him and God that they live out the Gospel to its fullest. Backsliding is entirely possible, however, as the Parable of the Seed & Sower states, and also Paul talked about trying to bring those who have abandoned the faith into the fold.

The concept of "once saved, always saved" is both wrong and highly dangerous because it might lead a person to relax their morals and possibly jeopardize their salvation.

metis said:

The concept of "once saved, always saved" is both wrong and highly dangerous because it might lead a person to relax their morals and possibly jeopardize their salvation.

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I agree, the OSAS approach is a total crock. You don't get to just slap a John 3:16 bumper sticker on your truck and you're good to go.

In my own exploration of the Cathar faith, one can take vows to become a 'Perfect'- one who is totally committed and gives up the world for God in contempt of Satan. Historically, only a Perfect could 'ordain' another Perfect (although that's not really an accurate term, as Cathars didn't have a priesthood), so if a Perfect was a 'backslider' and screwed up his vows any Perfects he had 'ordained' were also rendered invalid and had to have their 'ordination' done all over again by a Perfect in good standing. So there is a HUGE incentive to stay on the straight and narrow path and get it right not only for your own sake, but for those who are coming behind you.

Overall the deal was that a Believer (an ordinary follower) was expected to become a Perfect at some time before their death, and thus their soul would return to God upon their death. If they did not become a Perfect and stay 'right', their soul would have to await another body to be placed in (at conception) and the cycle of purification and redemption would begin anew- and it would continue until the soul found release in an observant, devout person.

Within this view of things, there is no OSAS to be found- it's an every day, 24/7 fight against Satan for control of your soul, and it's very easy to screw it up and have to do this all over again.

Jonathan Bailey said:

was conceived and born without original sin nor that she was absolutely free of any personal sin. I do believe she was a woman of distinct honor, having been deemed fit by God to bear His only begotten Son, and was saved and that she is forever in heaven. The Roman Catholics can't accept that the "Mother of God" is anything less than perfect and absolutely sinless from her own conception. God made Jesus perfect and sinless in the womb of Mary and free of original sin by the miracle of His divine workings. The holy seed (sperm) of God makes Jesus Christ perfect and absolutely sinless.


Does the Bible say that Mary, mother of Jesus, was born without sin?


To me, Mary herself addressed this issue in the words of the Magnificat (the song of praise that she spoke in response to the greeting of her cousin Elizabeth (the mother of John the Baptist) when Mary went to visit her immediately after Mary had been informed by the angel Gabriel that she was to be the mother of the Messiah). Mary began by saying (Luke 1:46-47), "My soul exalts the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior." If she had truly been without both original and actual sin, she would have had no need to either have or acknowledge a Savior.

She also said in Luke 1:48-50, "For, behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed, for He (God) has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.” Had Mary been totally without sin, she would have had no need to either receive or accept mercy (that is, undeserved favor or forgiveness) from God.

In addition, the Bible records occasions when Mary was mildly rebuked by Jesus Himself for actions or requests that, had she been totally without sin and shared Jesus' complete knowledge of and devotion to His Father's will, she should not have performed or asked (Luke 2:49-50 and John 2:3-4).

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The Catholics had alot wrong actually. Chief among those that you could earn (read: buy) your way into Heaven. But honestly, I don't understand why ppl believe Jesus has to be without sin, unless they're trying to prove he was the Messiah. If we see sin as wrongdoing, Jesus had many things he did that weren't according to the rules.

But sin isn't wrongdoing, it's disconnecting wirh God. Jesus never did that.

Mary was just a girl- a very normal girl- who managed to get pregnant at an early age (in our reckoning). We know Joseph wasn't the father of the child, and Jewish sources point the finger at a Roman soldier as being the father. In any case, Mary gave birth to a baby boy, and they named him Jesus. I don't think that part of the story is in dispute. As for Mary being the 'Mother of God' or some such, I believe the spirit of the Christ entered Jesus at conception- regardless who the father actually was- but Mary herself was not in any way special, nor was Jesus other than him being possessed of Christ. As such, Jesus was not THE 'son of God' any more than any of us are, as we are all possessed of spirits created by God. (Christ, IMHO, is the greatest and strongest of the spirits- being the first created by God- but certainly not the only one created.)

Goodman John said:

I do not believe Mary was sinless, or divine in her own right in any way. I believe Mary was simply a young girl, like any other young girl, who got pregnant (by someone very human) and had to be married off to avoid embarrassment to her family: enter Joseph, Mary's senior by multiple decades, being chosen to marry her. Joseph, upon finding out Mary is already pregnant, plans to ditch her in some backwater town but is convinced otherwise. In time, Jesus is born- perfectly normally- and grows up normally like any other very human baby boy.

HOWEVER, the spirit within Jesus- placed in him at conception- is a particularly strong one, being the Christ. Jesus is not the Christ himself, but the Christ is within him. But that's a different story.

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Goodman John,
The only problem I have with your reasoning is: it goes completely against the Bible, and any person who hopes to live very much longer must believe God Word, The Holy Bible. God even promised that He would protect His words from all generations, Psalms 12:6,7. Notice that the Bible, even Jesus said; Your word is truth, John 17:17. In at least two places the Bible tells us that God’s word remains forever, Isaiah 40:8, 1Peter 1:25, and also this word that has been proclaimed to you. So if a person disregards God’s Words, it is impossible to Help a person to everlasting life, 1Timothy 4:16, Psalms 10:4.
Something to remember; different men have tried to show where God’s word is inaccurate, for many years. Even though the Bible was written over a period of 1600 years, being completed about 2,000 years ago, it is still the most up to date book on earth. When men write books there books are outdated by the time they are put on the book shelves. It is usually easy to find something wrong with any book written today, because knowledge is doubling every few years. Think about that, God’s word is still the most up to date book on earth, even more than up to date, it Prophesies about the future. Think about what Jesus says at Luke 10:21. What Jesus said is beyond the possibility of men!! No man is wise enough to write a book that babes can understand, but wise men cannot, but God did.
To understand God’s word you must be humble and open to knowledge, Matthew 18:1-4. A person must pray for The Holy Spirit, along with sincerity, to understand the deep things of God, 1Corinthians 2:1-16.
One more point; we are all limited by our lack of knowledge, called Egocentric Predicament, or Epistemological Predicament, meaning we, compared with God, know NOTHING, so how can we question or reason something different than what is written in the Book written by the only Omniscient person in existence. It is really the unreasonable for any person to disagree with what God said, Job 36:4, Job 37:5,16,40:8, 42:1-3. Consider what is said at Isaiah 55:8,9, also 1Corinthians 3:18,19.
Think about this; according to Science mankind uses about 3% of our brain power. God made man to use 100%, think about how much smarter we will be when we live in the Paradise earth that God promises. God knows everything, should we question Him, or try to learn what we can, from Him.
Another point, think about what is said at 1Corinthians 8:2, you think you know something, you do not know it just as you ought to know it. God knows everything, He Created Everything, Acts 17:24,25. Agape!!!

What? That’s just nutty.