Christianity : Is Christendom strengthened by Bahaullah?

CG Didymus said:

For the salvation of the soul and to defeat Satan, and to wait for Jesus to return, then Christianity is best. If the person wants to fix a broken world and unite all people and all religions, then the Baha'i Faith is better. But I really don't see a progression. The Baha'i Faith has to make too many things "symbolic" and not literal in the NT to make Christianity fit into the Baha'i model. And Christianity, has no need for the Baha'i Faith or any other religion except Judaism. And, ironically, Christians do to Judaism what Baha'is do to all the other religions,... they say that the Jewish leaders corrupted the true message and added traditions into the religion. But still, we don't the mysterious "original" teachings to know how and when things got corrupted.

Click to expand...

I see the whole purpose is to know what it is to speak in the Spirit. This world is the matrix for the spiritual worlds to come. All the material world is doing, is feeding our capacity to grow in this matrix into the spiritual being we are, and will be. After Birth from this world the placenta is discarded.

The Bible tells us that we must be born again and God's Messengers show us how to be born again.

The question I ask you to consider CG is, 'why has no Messenger chosen to be an earthly king'? Christ gave the answer, His kingdom is not of this world and that is what we are invited to partake in.

The world is changing fast. The Baha'i Faith is now emerging from obscurity and this day is foretold. The fight between our lower selves and our higher selves, is now on the font line of the battlefield. We must ask, which is the stronger in us, which side will win the battle? It is our choice.

This life is a perfect place to obtain what is spiritual virtues. All that happens allows us to transcend nature and become spiritual in the knowledge and love of God. Pain and suffering are built into this matrix. As such we are born, we are educated, we earn a living to help family, community and all humanity and then we leave this matrix. All this takes sacrifice of self for the greater good.

That is the Lesson Christ has taught me, not to cling blindly to the name of Jesus, but to embrace the Christ (Anointed One), that was Jesus , which is the Holy Spirit in all of God's Messengers.

P/S - Reading the posts above this later, you can see the battle that is unfolding with our choices.

All the best CG, Regards Tony

paarsurrey said:

The founders of all great Religions before Muhammad were truthful in their origin.
The followers of them are to be judged by G-d.
Regards

Click to expand...

Maybe. Maybe not. Your belief. Not my belief.

stvdv said:

Do I understand you correctly, that you believe that "Other religions are insufficient on themselves?"
(insufficient meaning not enough to reach human goal [whatever that may be])

Click to expand...

I see that All Messages contain the potential. The only persons that know that potential though, are God's Messengers.

For us to see that potential, it must be through their eyes, which means submission to them and their word. Their eyes and word are that of God. They see all, the past and the future, they know all and know what we will choose before we have made the choice, that is how we face our choices in life, they are God given moments.

Regards Tony

Thanks for your answer

stvdv said:

Do you believe that religions other than your own, are sufficient on their own?
(sufficient meaning enough to reach human goal [whatever that may be])

Click to expand...

paarsurrey said:

The founders of all great Religions before Muhammad were truthful in their origin.
The followers of them are to be judged by G-d.
Regards

Click to expand...

Founders before Muhammed were truthful in their origin. You mean with this, that Muhammed was different (not truthful or less truthful or more truthful)?

You mean that followers of Muhammad will be not judged by God (or differently judged by God)

Do you believe that Islam would be the best religion to choose for all people?

You believe (I guess) that you can reach a certain (highest) goal in this life (or life hereafter) by following Islam. Do you believe that reaching that goal is also possible by following another religion?

stvdv said:

Do I understand you correctly, that you believe that "Other religions are insufficient on themselves?"
(insufficient meaning not enough to reach human goal [whatever that may be])

Click to expand...

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I see that All Messages contain the potential. The only persons that know that potential though, are God's Messengers

Click to expand...

Do you mean that you "see" (as in you are a see-er, man of wisdom, meaning you know by your own realization) or is this "just" what you believe?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

For us to see that potential, it must be through their eyes, which means submission to them and their word. Their eyes and word are that of God. They see all, the past and the future, they know all and know what we will choose before we have made the choice, that is how we face our choices in life, they are God given moments.

Click to expand...

Okay, now you say that ALL Messengers of God have the same potential, so there is no difference which Messenger we choose (to see through their eyes etc as you nicely described).

Would Rama, Krishna, Sai Baba, not Messengers though, but (Poorna) Avatars be also qualified (for those who choose to believe in them), the same way as you believe Bahaullah is qualified?

Or do you believe that the Avatars are less qualified to reach one's highest Goal (destination or whatever one calls it?), and that Bahaullah is more qualified?

stvdv said:

Do you mean that you "see" (as in you are a see-er, man of wisdom, meaning you know by your own realization) or is this "just" what you believe?


Okay, now you say that ALL Messengers of God have the same potential, so there is no difference which Messenger we choose (to see through their eyes etc as you nicely described).

Would Rama, Krishna, Sai Baba (not Messengers though, but (Poorna) Avatars be also qualified (for those who choose to believe in them), the same way as you believe Bahaullah is qualified?

Or do you believe that the Avatars are less qualified to reach one's highest Goal (destination or whatever one calls it?), and that Bahaullah is more qualified?

Click to expand...

Baha'u'llah has explained there are Major and minor prophets. The Messengers/Manifestations of God are all we can know of God. They are the 'Self of God' in this world, with direct guidance from God via the Holy Spirit. All we can know of God, is just knowledge of the Messenger, All praise of God is praise of them. They are the major prophets. Krishna, Zoroaster, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah are such Messengers. God is unknowable to us and above all we can understand.

The minor prophets draw all their knowledge from these Manifestations, they do not get a direct revelation, they are men like us that have polished away the veils of self and in turn reflect the Manifestation. They also do not calim a direct revelation from God.

Thus the world is given a Major Prophet and all around the world each manifestation gives inspiration to other chosen souls and raises up followers.

It is our choice if we open and polish our heart and Baha'u'llah says;

"..The mystic and wondrous Bride, hidden ere this beneath the veiling of utterance, hath now, by the grace of God and His divine favor, been made manifest even as the resplendent light shed by the beauty of the Beloved. I bear witness, O friends! that the favor is complete, the argument fulfilled, the proof manifest and the evidence established. Let it now be seen what your endeavors in the path of detachment will reveal. In this wise hath the divine favor been fully vouchsafed unto you and unto them that are in heaven and on earth. All praise to God, the Lord of all Worlds..."

Indeed, what will our choices lead us to do?

Regards Tony

stvdv said:

Do you mean that you "see" (as in you are a see-er, man of wisdom, meaning you know by your own realization) or is this "just" what you believe?

Click to expand...

I mean by reading about and my thoughts of what Baha'ullah has said and offered.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Baha'u'llah has explained there are Major and minor prophets. The Messengers/Manifestations of God are all we can know of God. They are the 'Self of God' in this world, with direct guidance from God via the Holy Spirit. All we can know of God, is just knowledge of the Messenger, All praise of God is praise of them. They are the major prophets. Krishna, Zoroaster, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah are such Messengers. God is unknowable to us and above all we can understand.

Click to expand...

Lucky me, having been personally, for 10 years, with the major Manifestation of this Age, Sai Baba

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

It is our choice if we open and polish our heart and Baha'u'llah says;

Click to expand...

I definitely choose well

stvdv said:

Lucky me, having been personally for 10 years with the major Manifestation of this Age, Sai Baba, I definitely choose well

Click to expand...

I wish you always well and happy.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I wish you always well and happy.

Regards Tony

Click to expand...

I wish you also well and happy

Regards stvdv

paarsurrey said:

Christianity is wrong from the time Paul faked a vision

Click to expand...

Taking things as literal that were meant to be symbolic is one thing the Baha'is say that Christianity has gotten wrong. The main one being the Resurrection. Evangelical/Fundamental Christians believe Jesus was really dead and really came back to life and hung out with his disciples for a few weeks and then ascended into the sky. Baha'is say this never literally happened. That all this is symbolic. Jesus died and did not physically come back to life, and did not float off into the sky. Since Paul is accepted as Christian Scripture and these stories from the gospels as accepted as Christian Scripture are they both fake?

I have a problem with Baha'is saying that the gospel writers wrote about a symbolic resurrection as if it really happened. I think, if it didn't literally happen, if Jesus did not physically come back to life, these gospel stories are not symbolic, but fake... that if the resurrection didn't really happen then the disciples made up the story, but preached it as if it really happened. But, either way, if symbolic or real, they preached it and it was believed by early Christians to have really happened. So the last thing I'd believe is that the gospel writers wrote about a symbolic resurrection, but then they, and the other disciples, went about telling others that Jesus had physically come back to life and then physically rose from the dead.

For me, it was totally real, totally fake but never symbolic. So how do you see it?

CG Didymus said:

Taking things as literal that were meant to be symbolic is one thing the Baha'is say that Christianity has gotten wrong. The main one being the Resurrection. Evangelical/Fundamental Christians believe Jesus was really dead and really came back to life and hung out with his disciples for a few weeks and then ascended into the sky. Baha'is say this never literally happened. That all this is symbolic. Jesus died and did not physically come back to life, and did not float off into the sky. Since Paul is accepted as Christian Scripture and these stories from the gospels as accepted as Christian Scripture are they both fake?

I have a problem with Baha'is saying that the gospel writers wrote about a symbolic resurrection as if it really happened. I think, if it didn't literally happen, if Jesus did not physically come back to life, these gospel stories are not symbolic, but fake... that if the resurrection didn't really happen then the disciples made up the story, but preached it as if it really happened. But, either way, if symbolic or real, they preached it and it was believed by early Christians to have really happened. So the last thing I'd believe is that the gospel writers wrote about a symbolic resurrection, but then they, and the other disciples, went about telling others that Jesus had physically come back to life and then physically rose from the dead.

For me, it was totally real, totally fake but never symbolic. So how do you see it?

Click to expand...

I, in my limited understanding, see it as that Jesus really came and taught, maybe He did perform miracles in the sense of being larger than life, but not in the sense of feeding everyone with a limited amount of food. This does leave the question of what really happened to cause these Bible writers to write it in such a way, though.

I also believe that Jesus didn't really need to perform miracles, to be incredible.

I believe that Jesus was a human manifestation of a much greater power which can perform miracles, but generally doesn't.

How I came to make some sense of the world through Baha'i is that I wasn't preached to, but someone on here had mentioned the subject enough times publicly that I considered it almost disrespectful to expect him to talk to me in threads without actually studying his beliefs out of respect. Now I had studied many beliefs previously. Christianity by itself was a hard one for me because I can't really bend my head around that I may go to hell through some "spiritual wrong" when I myself have the emotional intelligence of a 15 year old. But some in that community have insisted that I probably will. Panentheism I think contains elements of truth on the nature of the spiritual side, but I find it hard seeing it as a full religion for myself. I even studied Scientology, but couldn't wrap my head around it, personally. But the first time I searched "Baha'i", I found some speculative (but not inaccurate) articles which seemed to answer just about every question I had.

The toughest part of accepting the Baha'i faith is accepting that while homosexuality isn't going to send one to hell, it isn't how design was intended by God. So it's going to be a challenge setting aside some of my ideas as a pro-LGBTQ+ person, which while they won't send me to hell, they could stand in the way of my greatest personal enjoyment of life.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

The minor prophets draw all their knowledge from these Manifestations, they do not get a direct revelation, they are men like us that have polished away the veils of self and in turn reflect the Manifestation. They also do not calim a direct revelation from God.

Click to expand...

From the Jewish religion don't Baha'is say there were several Manifestations? Not just Moses, but Abraham and don't you even include Noah and Adam? As if all of them brought new teachings and a new religion? But, also in Judaism are a whole bunch of prophets and also judges, kings and their great military leaders like Joshua. Did the judges follow what Abraham taught, whatever that was, or did they listen to God? Did the prophets say "thus says Moses about God?" or did they say "Thus says the Lord"? And if Abraham was a Manifestation then why not King David or Israel or Joseph? They all played a tremendous part of the Jewish story.

Then if we switch to Hinduism who are their Manifestations? Who are their minor prophets? A fully enlightened sage if what to the Baha'is? A Guru that claims to be the reincarnation of Vishnu is what a Manifestation or a liar, or just confused? Baha'i explanations sometimes seem much too simplistic.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

They are the major prophets. Krishna, Zoroaster, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah are such Messengers. God is unknowable to us and above all we can understand.

Click to expand...

CG Didymus said:

From the Jewish religion don't Baha'is say there were several Manifestations? Not just Moses, but Abraham and don't you even include Noah and Adam? As if all of them brought new teachings and a new religion? But, also in Judaism are a whole bunch of prophets and also judges, kings and their great military leaders like Joshua. Did the judges follow what Abraham taught, whatever that was, or did they listen to God? Did the prophets say "thus says Moses about God?" or did they say "Thus says the Lord"? And if Abraham was a Manifestation then why not King David or Israel or Joseph? They all played a tremendous part of the

Click to expand...

I fully agree. Moses was 1 of the greatest IMO. There is difference in the prophets. Of course all are good people, but some have more Divine Qualities. Jesus was IMO a messenger with more power than Bahaullah. Call them all the same "messenger" I think is not correct.

CG Didymus said:

Then if we switch to Hinduism who are their Manifestations? Who are their minor prophets? A fully enlightened sage if what to the Baha'is? A Guru that claims to be the reincarnation of Vishnu is what a Manifestation or a liar, or just confused? Baha'i explanations sometimes seem much too simplistic.

Click to expand...

One should not call Krishna a manifestation like Bahaullah. If Krishna is the ocean, Bahaullah is maybe at most a river. Because Krishna is the Poorna Avatara, having all Divine attributes, whereas Bahaullah "only" heard the voice of Krishna (God).

This is not to belittle Bahaullah (I really think Bahaullah's concept is great that all religions are pathways to God instead of the "my way is the highway" we see a lot), it's just to give correct perspective. At the time of Krishna a more powerful incarnation was needed.

So Bahai does not do right to Avatars by calling them messengers. Unless they call Bahaullah minor and Krishna MAJOR messenger IMHO.

Note: When there is a class of math students you just don't call them all Einstein.
Note: When there is a class of pianist students you just don't call them all Mozart

paarsurrey said:

Christianity : Is Christendom strengthened by Bahaullah?

Regards
___________
#1

Click to expand...

I believe Christianity is all it needs to be. Since the B man is speaking religious philosophy it is also possible for him to diminish the message and since there is no indication that he had the Paraclete then it is unlkely that he could enhance the message.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I see a progression of faith, for those that wish to consider how prophecy unfolds.

Thus take the Abrahamic Line and you see the progression of Faith through the Prophets and Messengers. The line only stops when me says it does.

Thus we follow the line of the prophets in the Old Testament on to Christ, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah. Each Messenger confirms the Messages gone before and tells of a Message to come. Muhammad, in the Quran, shows the acceptance of all prior Messengers from God/Allah is a foundation to the acceptance of His given Message from Allah, that line is only broken by each age not accepting the Covenant that follows.

Thus the Baha'i Faith does not only strengthen the Message given by Jesus the Christ, it is the fulfillment of that Message. The Message given in the New Testament by Jesus Christ the Son, can not be fully and truly known without accepting Baha'u'llah the Father and the Word for this age.

I see the Dharma, eastern line of Faiths are complementary and an essential part of the whole system, that system given by our One God.

Regards Tony

Click to expand...

I believe I haven't seen any progression yet and can't imagine how a religious philosopher could provide any.

MikeDwight said:

None of this thread makes sense. Sorry! One person adding on to anything else dilutes the original. That's just some Blaring logic here. We don't add on Mohammad. Jesus fulfilled in a short paragraph form the Old Testament? Amazing. I looked up your guy a little bit, bauhaulllahauuuah…. Each religion tells you to do different things though?

Click to expand...

I don't believe there is any adding on. Someone once asked meif I wanted to add the Qu'ran on to the Bible since I believed it was the word of God but there is no reason to do that because the Bible Canon is complete. The Qu'ran is what it is for what it is worth and the B writings are what they are for what they are worth.

Muffled said:

I believe I haven't seen any progression yet and can't imagine how a religious philosopher could provide any.

Click to expand...

I see a progression of spiritual knowledge, from how to bring about and live an individual Salvation, on to sharing that salvation on a community level, then on to a national level and now on to the world as a whole.

Thus our mind now tanscends the salvation of self and will not find rest until one is a servant to all humanity and not one soul is suffering remoteness from God. Deeds now transcend words and no word is accepted without deeds.

Regards Tony