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What did our dear rabbi Jesus say that shocked the world with unprecedented knowledge

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
keep in mind I an a Bible believing Christian as I reply to your post, so I honestly dont care more than as an intellectual excercise-trying to immagine why it is that you would "Imagine" something about Jesus without even an attempt to find out what He did.
You carry on about Jesus on Moral standards, and how he always spoke so "Holy Moly" hippy like to everyone, without even realising you are not speaking about Jesus at all!
lets see if you even ever attempted to read the Bible!

Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
And in any of these cases did Jesus curse? Did Jesus mock? Was he being sarcastic? As I even stated, he said disparaging things, but he only ever seems to have done so with a sort of style to it. Baking analogies into the words, or even directly stating what he felt was the truth, but without any overt malice. This is what I was getting at. This is what I was talking about. All you did with these quotes was prove my point, honestly. That is all you did. So thanks... way to go. You're such a good wingman. Couldn't have done it without you. High five man! Pfff...

You see, if you dont even know what Jesus say, how can you as an Atheist deny God?
You're hilarious. With this quote you display how little you know of the ease with which any self-assessing atheist does not believe in God. It is incredibly easy. I don't even need to know a lick about Jesus and I can disbelieve in God. So easy. My goodness. It is giving me some kind of "spiritual" experience here contemplating how extremely easy it is to disbelieve in God. I've got goosebumps.

If I were to proclaim the theory of General relativity is rubbish, when I never read the treatice of Einstein, never studdied Physics, or any science, You will be the foirst to call me o stupid fool!
Obvious difference here - there are actual, physical realities to be studied to try and verify or falsify something like general relativity. There is no such reality-based basis upon which one can study Jesus, or even just "what happened 2,000 years ago" with anywhere near the same clarity of purpose.

You proclaim God does not exist, yet you have no clue about what is in the Bible?
I do feel I know quite a bit about what is in The Bible. Do I know everything? No. Mostly because the more I studied it and read it, the more ridiculous it proved itself to be to my mind. So yes, I stopped short. Too much garbage, not enough worthwhile in my estimation. You're free to esteem it differently than me, that's fine. But I will continue to find it a lot lower on the metaphysical/philosophical totem than any believer may hold it to be. I honestly believe many of our (human society's) principles have moved beyond many of the immature, naive ideas in The Bible. I simply can't go back... it is just too many steps backward, and it would be foolish to discard the progress we have made.

Will I be correct to call you a viper?
Here again... a METAPHOR. Not a direct insult. I would even need to know what you mean by "viper," in the first place. And here we come around to my other point - naivete and immaturity of thought. Why do you consider a "viper" to be "bad"? Maybe you're calling me "fast", or "good at stealth." Maybe you're commenting on my ability to overcome challenges as if I had a venom that eliminates those in my path. There are all sorts of attributes a "viper" possesses, and we only think of them as "bad" because they aren't "good" for humans. If humans had fangs and venom, we'd likely think of the viper as a comrade in arms - maybe even use them as a symbol of ourselves. You can be assured the viper himself does not think poorly of his stealth, nor his fangs, nor his use of venom. In fact, all of those things are a great boon to him and his livelihood. In my opinion, it is a great folly and foolishness, displaying a monumental intellectual immaturity to call a viper "bad" as if that had some objective meaning. And The Bible seems to do just that by using "viper" as a disparaging term. Hence one of the many reasons I find The Bible (and even Jesus himself) sophomoric and underdeveloped.

It's your opinion of me. Believe/feel as you will.
a Hypocrite?
Now here I'd actually enjoy a bit of an explanantion. How exactly have I been hypocritical? Please cite the actions I have taken or words I have written that you have observed that indicate that I am a hypocrite.
Well, rest assure, I wont do it for Jesus calls you just that!
And I would most certainly ask that Jesus back up his own statements with the evidence that leads him to that conclusion. Same as I asked for from you.
 
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David J

Member
You might want to get unbaptized.

Unbaptized means no christianity, basically, or usually. Its pretty clear in the text.

I'm pretty sure it's not possible, but there's always a different viewpoint.

For baptism example, I was indoctrinated by the Church of Christ at an early age. They believe that if you don't receive full underwater baptism, you will go to hell. They cling on acts 2:38 and other verses. It was done in an above ground swimming pool. I was naked but they gave me some sort of water proof bib to clothe. It was still humiliating. The evangelist asked, also standing in the pool, if I'm sorry for my sins, I said yes. Then he asked "do you believe that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior"? I said yes. Then he pushed my forehead to go underwater, and then I got up. Chlorine water was up my nose and everyone around me praised.

I'm not worried about becoming unbaptized.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
What did our dear rabbi Jesus say that shocked the world with unprecedented knowledge?

No supernatural magic, that's cheating.

Ecclesiastes 1:9
What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.

Maybe Jesus said somethings that were shocking?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Fair enough...! :)
The Greek word 'tecton' was used to describe Jesus and his father in the Greek bible. Tecton can mean skilled worker in materials like wood, bone, stone etc, but it can also mean 'wise' or 'highly skilled'.

The Eastern Aramaic word is 'Nagar' or 'Nagarra' and as well as 'skilled worker' this can mean crafting in the sorcery sense. A related word is 'Nacash' = serpent 'hissing'an incantation = sorcery

Kharash, magi and tekton are also related to nagar.
Serpent is Naga in India, Nagash in Babylonian, and Nachash in the Bible. All of them are associated with Sorcery.

Both the Indian Naga Serpents and the Hebrew Nachash Serpents are associated with magic. In fact one word for magic in the Bible is nachash – To (snake) hiss/whisper an incantation.

Origen said Jesus was never described as a carpenter in the Gospels.

And Jesus was being called a Sorcerer. He could do amazing things....... what do you think the humble peasants thought of the things that Jesus could do?

Nagarra! Magi!
:shrug:
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
That there really really was a noahs ark? :D

Interesting quote from about 180 AD: "The remains of the Ark (of Noah) can be seen to this day in the Arabian mountains." - Theophilus. Theophilus was the Bishop of Antioch. Source: Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, by David Bercot, referencing the Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 2, pg. 117.
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
What did our dear rabbi Jesus say that shocked the world with unprecedented knowledge?

No supernatural magic, that's cheating.

That there is eternal life for those who believe in him (John 3:16, etc.).
 
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Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
That there really really was a noahs ark? :D

He taught that slaves should obey their masters, that women were second rate citizens, that you should kill fig trees if they don't have fruit on them and you happen to be hungry, That the way to treat schizophrenia is to "put the demons into pigs".........
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
I do feel I know quite a bit about what is in The Bible. Do I know everything? No. Mostly because the more I studied it and read it, the more ridiculous it proved itself to be to my mind. So yes, I stopped short. Too much garbage, not enough worthwhile in my estimation. You're free to esteem it differently than me, that's fine. But I will continue to find it a lot lower on the metaphysical/philosophical totem than any believer may hold it to be. I honestly believe many of our (human society's) principles have moved beyond many of the immature, naive ideas in The Bible. I simply can't go back... it is just too many steps backward, and it would be foolish to discard the progress we have made.
Good, so by your own admission I was right.
You never read the Bible, yet you critisize the Biblical God.
Well, I will never say Einstein was a fool, because I am not a scientist and never read what Einstein wrote.
Therefore, all I can say is, perhaps Einstein was correct, or perhaps he was wrong. But I will be a fool to say he is wrong because it sounds as if he is telling fables in assuming that when travelling close to the speed of light, Time will stand still, and length will contract.
You on the other hand deny the Biblical God and you dont even know who He is.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
Here again... a METAPHOR. Not a direct insult. I would even need to know what you mean by "viper," in the first place. And here we come around to my other point - naivete and immaturity of thought. Why do you consider a "viper" to be "bad"? Maybe you're calling me "fast", or "good at stealth." Maybe you're commenting on my ability to overcome challenges as if I had a venom that eliminates those in my path. There are all sorts of attributes a "viper" possesses, and we only think of them as "bad" because they aren't "good" for humans. If humans had fangs and venom, we'd likely think of the viper as a comrade in arms - maybe even use them as a symbol of ourselves. You can be assured the viper himself does not think poorly of his stealth, nor his fangs, nor his use of venom. In fact, all of those things are a great boon to him and his livelihood. In my opinion, it is a great folly and foolishness, displaying a monumental intellectual immaturity to call a viper "bad" as if that had some objective meaning. And The Bible seems to do just that by using "viper" as a disparaging term. Hence one of the many reasons I find The Bible (and even Jesus himself) sophomoric and underdeveloped.
OK, Metaphor!
You metaphoric viper and hypocryte you!
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
Now here I'd actually enjoy a bit of an explanantion. How exactly have I been hypocritical? Please cite the actions I have taken or words I have written that you have observed that indicate that I am a hypocrite.
By telling me what Jesus said when you never read what he said?
it is like explaining me the theory of general Relativity, when you never heard about it before.
EMPTY!
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure it's not possible, but there's always a different viewpoint.

For baptism example, I was indoctrinated by the Church of Christ at an early age. They believe that if you don't receive full underwater baptism, you will go to hell. They cling on acts 2:38 and other verses. It was done in an above ground swimming pool. I was naked but they gave me some sort of water proof bib to clothe. It was still humiliating. The evangelist asked, also standing in the pool, if I'm sorry for my sins, I said yes. Then he asked "do you believe that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior"? I said yes. Then he pushed my forehead to go underwater, and then I got up. Chlorine water was up my nose and everyone around me praised.

I'm not worried about becoming unbaptized.
I remember how a Charismatic preacher had me on my knees pushing me on my forehead, asking "Do you feel it?"
He told everyone when I said yes, The Holy Ghost entered into him.
This was in 1989 and that was when I found the roots of atheism.
Realising how these false preachers and money collecters deceived everyone, drove me way aware of deception.
After I returned from the Angola SA war in 1982, I was so sure God does not exist at all!
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
Fair enough...! :)
The Greek word 'tecton' was used to describe Jesus and his father in the Greek bible. Tecton can mean skilled worker in materials like wood, bone, stone etc, but it can also mean 'wise' or 'highly skilled'.

The Eastern Aramaic word is 'Nagar' or 'Nagarra' and as well as 'skilled worker' this can mean crafting in the sorcery sense. A related word is 'Nacash' = serpent 'hissing'an incantation = sorcery

Kharash, magi and tekton are also related to nagar.
Serpent is Naga in India, Nagash in Babylonian, and Nachash in the Bible. All of them are associated with Sorcery.

Both the Indian Naga Serpents and the Hebrew Nachash Serpents are associated with magic. In fact one word for magic in the Bible is nachash – To (snake) hiss/whisper an incantation.

Origen said Jesus was never described as a carpenter in the Gospels.

And Jesus was being called a Sorcerer. He could do amazing things....... what do you think the humble peasants thought of the things that Jesus could do?

Nagarra! Magi!
:shrug:
In the Tswana language in South africa snake is Noka, in Zulu Inoka
All the ancient languages it seems use the same word for snake.
many Indian words were also to be found in the South African languages when the Eropeans first met these people 500 years ago.
One original language in the beginning, wonder where this theory came from .
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
The Eastern Aramaic word is 'Nagar' or 'Nagarra' and as well as 'skilled worker' this can mean crafting in the sorcery sense.
Do you have a source where it is used to mean sorcery?
I believe you are confusing a different word: ḥarash which is Aramaic for sorcerer and the Biblical Hebrew way to say artisan or carpenter.
English <----> Hebrew <----> Aramaic
Artisan ==== ḥarash ===== nagar
Sorcerer=== m'khashef === ḥarash

A related word is 'Nacash' = serpent 'hissing'an incantation = sorcery...

In fact one word for magic in the Bible is nachash – To (snake) hiss/whisper an incantation.
Incantations are whispered = laḥash not snaked. There is a type of prohibited divination called niḥush (Lev. 19:26, Deut. 18:10) and that shares a root with the word naḥash. But Jewish sources don't understand it as having to do with incantations and snakes in general don't appear to have much to do with sorcery. The relationship between laḥash and naḥash appears to be that the former is something you do to the latter, as in Eccl. 10:11 and not something the latter does.

Also, the hissing that snakes do might possibly be called nashaf in Biblical Hebrew. It's literal meaning is "blow", but in Gen. 3:15 it's possibly being used as a double entendre in the word t'shufenu by meaning crush and snake blowing, ie. hissing.

Both the Indian Naga Serpents and the Hebrew Nachash Serpents are associated with magic.
I don't think it's fair to say that snakes are particularly associated with magic in Hebrew. At least, not more so than clouds, which is at the root of another word for a type of divination.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
Do you have a source where it is used to mean sorcery?
I believe you are confusing a different word: ḥarash which is Aramaic for sorcerer and the Biblical Hebrew way to say artisan or carpenter.
English <----> Hebrew <----> Aramaic
Artisan ==== ḥarash ===== nagar
Sorcerer=== m'khashef === ḥarash


Incantations are whispered = laḥash not snaked. There is a type of prohibited divination called niḥush (Lev. 19:26, Deut. 18:10) and that shares a root with the word naḥash. But Jewish sources don't understand it as having to do with incantations and snakes in general don't appear to have much to do with sorcery. The relationship between laḥash and naḥash appears to be that the former is something you do to the latter, as in Eccl. 10:11 and not something the latter does.

Also, the hissing that snakes do might possibly be called nashaf in Biblical Hebrew. It's literal meaning is "blow", but in Gen. 3:15 it's possibly being used as a double entendre in the word t'shufenu by meaning crush and snake blowing, ie. hissing.


I don't think it's fair to say that snakes are particularly associated with magic in Hebrew. At least, not more so than clouds, which is at the root of another word for a type of divination.
Tnx pal.
Like the info.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Do you have a source where it is used to mean sorcery?
I believe you are confusing a different word: ḥarash which is Aramaic for sorcerer and the Biblical Hebrew way to say artisan or carpenter.
English <----> Hebrew <----> Aramaic
Artisan ==== ḥarash ===== nagar
Sorcerer=== m'khashef === ḥarash


Incantations are whispered = laḥash not snaked. There is a type of prohibited divination called niḥush (Lev. 19:26, Deut. 18:10) and that shares a root with the word naḥash. But Jewish sources don't understand it as having to do with incantations and snakes in general don't appear to have much to do with sorcery. The relationship between laḥash and naḥash appears to be that the former is something you do to the latter, as in Eccl. 10:11 and not something the latter does.

Also, the hissing that snakes do might possibly be called nashaf in Biblical Hebrew. It's literal meaning is "blow", but in Gen. 3:15 it's possibly being used as a double entendre in the word t'shufenu by meaning crush and snake blowing, ie. hissing.


I don't think it's fair to say that snakes are particularly associated with magic in Hebrew. At least, not more so than clouds, which is at the root of another word for a type of divination.
Wow!
Thank you for all of that.
I need to take that in slowly.
Do you think it possible that Galilean peasants might have seen a person like Jesus as a magi or amazing person? If so, what word would they have used in Eastern Aramaic?
 
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