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Atheists: If God existed…

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Possibly. It’s also possible that they don’t care and are above such petty human needs. Not malicious, just....aloof. I mean all that power, would you have a need to prove yourself to anyone, let alone to creatures that are (presumably) lower than you on the totem pole?
That is absolutely true. God does not NEED anyone to believe He exists. He is above all that.
Perhaps gods look at our existence and laugh at the cruel farce that is life.
I don’t presume to know the mind of an all powerful creature.
That's absolutely true. Of course we cannot know the mind of God.
All we have are what scriptures say about God's Will, but that is very limited.
We can make some deductions from that but we could easily be wrong.

I like your humility. :)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Prophecy ends with Zechariah 14. God is present on earth today. The elect believe it. The final proof that God is who he claims to be is the resurrection. Zechariah 14:4-5. 100 million people will witness this. God's final judgment will affect the heathen/idolaters/Christians, and they will be cut off by fire. Zechariah 14:12, Joel 3. It's called the "valley of decision". Joel 3:14.
So you believe that eventually God will provide proof that He exists to everyone?
I believe that everyone will believe in God in the future, but it will be a free will choice, because everyone will come to believe God exists, not because God showed up on earth.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
This God that you usually speak of, you mean? Which, it must be reminded, is in no way particularly default a conception of same?

No, I don't think that your God would provide proof of its existence. That would deny him any role, after all.
If everyone knew God existed why would He lose His role?
But in all honesty, your God is a particularly skewed take on the general idea of Abraham's God. Such a skewed one that it is just not worthy of the effort spent in such a question, let alone an answer to it.

No one should care whether such a God exists, let alone whether its existence could or should be demonstrated.
The atheist in the OP sure puts a lot of time and effort into the question of whether this god he doesn't believe in exists. :rolleyes:
Well, that defeats the whole purpose of even conceiving such a God, doesn't it?
It would take all the fun out of it if we had absolute proof, no mystery there.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
That is absolutely true. God does not NEED anyone to believe He exists. He is above all that.

That's absolutely true. Of course we cannot know the mind of God.
All we have are what scriptures say about God's Will, but that is very limited.
We can make some deductions from that but we could easily be wrong.

I like your humility. :)
Well thanks. I’m not trying to be humble. I’m just musing my random thoughts. I think that people inevitably impose human features onto a deity. That includes having scriptures with the deity’s supposed instructions to mankind. Are they valid or are they just what people wanted to hear?
Whether or not a specific deity actually exists is irrelevant to that observation.

People also want proof that a deity exists, and that’s a valid need. But it’s valid for human beings. A deity or god or what have you, is not human though.

I’m not particularly an atheist nor am I a theist necessarily. I like to believe there is a God, that my feelings of a deity looking out for me are verified, valid even. But that’s a strictly human feeling. Existential angst.
Maybe the deity exists but is bound by law not to interact. Maybe the deity simply doesn’t care. Maybe the deity is having a nap. Maybe it doesn’t even exist.
How do we know?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It has to do with what "existence" means. What sort of things do we allow "exist?" For instance, we don't allow that fictional things exist. We don't allow that imagined things exist. We don't allow that mistaken things exist. If Darth Vader turned to the camera and announced, "I exist!" we needn't take him at his word.

Proof of God would have to overcome all such barriers.
By existence I mean proof that God is real, that He exists in reality rather than being a product of human imagination.
Many possible reasons. It could be that proof of her existence is ridiculous or impossible. If God has sentience, it could be that she has personal reasons why she has chosen not to reveal herself.
That makes sense. God has reasons and its really none of our business to question God. Then also, it could be impossible to prove God exists. Being omnipotent only means God can do anything but tat does not mean we can understand anything God could do. The limits exist on the human end.
If you're not talking about evidence of absolute existence that would constitute proof, then I guess I bow out.
I guess you mean you think that is impossible. That is a good point that I never thought of. :)
I am going to pass that along to my atheist friend.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The atheist in this case strikes me as having not fully thought through the issue here. Of course, it would take a book to offer you a truly comprehensive answer to such a large question, but even so, I think the atheist could have done better -- unless you are limiting the length of people's comments.
No, I am not limiting anything, he just keeps saying the same things over and over and over and over again; for years this has been going on. He says if God exists God would provide proof of His existence but this is based upon nothing other than the fact that he wants proof, as there is no reason to think God would ever provide proof of His existence.... Evidence maybe, but not proof.
Now, the above are just three categories of evidence regarding the existence of deity. There are other categories. The atheist in your example seems to have overlooked quite a bit. Consequently, his comment was a bit too simplistic.
His only category of evidence is absolute proof and religion to him is no evidence at all... He has some magical idea that there is some other kind of evidence that God could provide. He says God would/should communicate directly to everyone on earth if God existed based upon nothing other than that is what he wants, as if God was a short order cook...

Everything he says is based upon what he wants, not upon reason, and the sad thing is that he cannot see that at all. :(
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
If everyone knew God existed why would He lose His role?


That depends on who you ask and many other factors.

Nonetheless, a common and often valid answer is that it would indeed become just a part of nature, and in losing all supernatural attributes it would become meaningless.

The atheist in the OP sure puts a lot of time and effort into the question of whether this god he doesn't believe in exists. :rolleyes:

Many of us have habits that involve a lot of expense of time for questionable purposes.

It would take all the fun out of it if we had absolute proof, no mystery there.

If you say so. Whatever. Your take on God is remarkably fictional even by Abrahamic parameters.
 

susanblange

Active Member
So you believe that eventually God will provide proof that He exists to everyone?
I believe that everyone will believe in God in the future, but it will be a free will choice, because everyone will come to believe God exists, not because God showed up on earth.
Isaiah 11:9. "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea". Habakkuk 2:14. "For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea". The Messiah is going to bring everlasting world peace, justice, and righteousness. In the end, the Messianic era, there will only be two religions. Christianity and Judaism. All other religions will disappear and their members will convert. The Book of Life will contain the names of those who love and fear the God of Israel. Malachi 3:16. Exodus 20:6. Christians will execute the Messiah but she will come back and the entire world will witness this. The Kingdom of God will be permanently established and this is called "the perfect day". Proverbs 4:18.
 

FooYang

Active Member
He has some magical idea that there is some other kind of evidence that God could provide.

True, it's quite strange that Atheists ask so much for evidence that Reality exists. I know for a fact the Reality exists because I experience the consequence of it's existence. Atheists will always confuse me but they're damn entertaining to watch.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
An atheist on my forum said: “if God existed, then proof of his existence would be possible. The proof isn't there, and the best explanation for that lack of proof would be that neither is the god there.”

If God existed, would God provide proof of His existence? If you answer yes, please explain why you think that God would provide proof of His existence.

Is it possible that God exists and has chosen not to provide proof of His existence? If you think it possible that God exists and has chosen not to provide proof of His existence, why do you think God would choose not to provide proof of His existence?

I am not talking about evidence, I am talking about absolute proof, in which case God would be established as a fact, like a scientific fact everyone would agree upon.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement: https://www.google.com/search



Why is it assumed that there is no proof God exists? All the secrets of the universe are all around us. Perhaps, it's a test of Intelligence.

In this time based causal universe, God's actions can be seen. Perhaps following the bread crumbs will lead to the proof those that seek desire.

One must remember that this world is not about God. It is about us. It was created for us and our learning.

Free choice is crucial to true learning. God does not want to intimidate our choices therefore the proof can only be found by those who truly Understand and will not be intimidated. Can you say that you are there?

I think most everyone is capable of Discovering God for themselves. On the other hand, how many really want to find God?

Everyone now has proof I exist. As I see it, God doesn't have to be a Belief. Proof of God does exist. On the other hand, it takes hard work to get there. As with all knowledge, it is not served up on a silver platter. As I see it the only thing keeping you from the proof is yourself.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Why not, if God is omnipotent?
Doesn't make any difference.

The "proof" would be up to us to ascertain, and if god decided not to leave the appropriate pieces of evidence around we'd be up the creek.

That's true, but that God only wants us to exalt and worship Him for our sake, not for His sake,since that God needs nothing from humans.
And you know this to be a fact because ________________________________________________ .

God wants us to believe in Him, but only on His terms.
Again, you know this to be a fact because ________________________________________________ .

.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Well thanks. I’m not trying to be humble. I’m just musing my random thoughts.
People do not have to try to be humble, they either are or they aren't.
You are a refreshing change from the atheist poster I quoted in the OP.
In over five years of posting to him, I do not think he has ever admitted he was wrong, and he has never even met me halfway. That might sound rather extreme but it's the truth.

I certainly do not know his motives for talking so much about a god he does not believe in and thinks would be evil if it existed, I would not waste my time talking about a god I felt that way about, but we humans are all so different.
I think that on some level he really wants to know if God exists, but he is not going to find out putting all these expectations on God.

So on and on it goes. Anymore I just delete the repetition because it only leads to arguing and I don't like arguing. He thinks he knows me better than I know myself and he has to call me brainwashed by religion because if he conceded to that I really investigated my religion before I believed it, he might have to entertain the possibility there could be something to it, and he won't do that. He goes on the same way with the Christian poster I have on my forum, who is very humble and gracious and patient.
I think that people inevitably impose human features onto a deity. That includes having scriptures with the deity’s supposed instructions to mankind. Are they valid or are they just what people wanted to hear?
Since I am a Baha'i, I have a religion, so I think that scriptures contain God's will for mankind through the Messenger of God. Some are what people want to hear but a lot are what people don't want to hear, like some of the laws.
People also want proof that a deity exists, and that’s a valid need. But it’s valid for human beings. A deity or god or what have you, is not human though.
That is a good point. Human needs are not God's needs and God is under no obligation to fulfill our needs.
I’m not particularly an atheist nor am I a theist necessarily. I like to believe there is a God, that my feelings of a deity looking out for me are verified, valid even. But that’s a strictly human feeling. Existential angst.
Maybe the deity exists but is bound by law not to interact. Maybe the deity simply doesn’t care. Maybe the deity is having a nap. Maybe it doesn’t even exist.
How do we know?
Again, I appreciate your humility and open-mindedness. Those are rare qualities in humans.
According to my beliefs, there can never be any direct intercourse between God and ordinary human beings, and that is why God speaks through Messengers who have both a divine and a human nature, thus they can act as mediators between God and man. That seems logical to me and that is why I believe it.

For whatever reason, atheists have a problem with he idea of Messengers of God but in over five years of asking why I still have received no logical reason. The most logical thing they say is that they cannot know that any Messenger actually received messages from God and that is valid because nobody can prove that...The question is then why proof is necessary, why isn't good evidence sufficient?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That depends on who you ask and many other factors.

Nonetheless, a common and often valid answer is that it would indeed become just a part of nature, and in losing all supernatural attributes it would become meaningless.
That is a good point.
Many of us have habits that involve a lot of expense of time for questionable purposes.
That is true and I should not talk, because I have no idea why I keep posting to this man, given it is the same thing over and over again and it never changes.
If you say so. Whatever. Your take on God is remarkably fictional even by Abrahamic parameters.
God is not fictional to me, He is real, but He is not that personal. He just is and I do not necessarily buy all the attributes that other Abrahamic religionists put on Him.
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Evidence regarding spiritual things is different with different standards for each person.

There are no rules of evidence as there are in law. An atheist likely has a completely different set of admissable evidences from a believer.
I agree with you so far.
It is the height of arrogance to decide that everyone must accept the atheists view of evidence, and none other.
I suspect the problem arises before we come to the evidence.

Many nonbelievers have much the same concept of 'truth' as science does: that a statement about reality (a purported statement of fact) is true to the extent that it corresponds to / accurately reflects objective reality. This is called the 'correspondence' view of truth, and it gets its power by providing the most objective test for truth available.

That is, a statement isn't true because of who said it ─ it's true because it's factually accurate and can be shown to be.

I respectfully suggest that preferring an objective standard of truth isn't 'the height of arrogance' but simple common sense, surely?

How is it common sense NOT to prefer the most objective standard available?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
(I'm not an atheist, hope you don't mind my comment.)

I think the evidence is all around us. How matter is formed in exquisite arrangements, and especially life itself.

Psalms 139:14
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Isaiah 11:9. "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea". Habakkuk 2:14. "For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea". The Messiah is going to bring everlasting world peace, justice, and righteousness. In the end, the Messianic era, there will only be two religions. Christianity and Judaism. All other religions will disappear and their members will convert. The Book of Life will contain the names of those who love and fear the God of Israel. Malachi 3:16. Exodus 20:6. Christians will execute the Messiah but she will come back and the entire world will witness this. The Kingdom of God will be permanently established and this is called "the perfect day". Proverbs 4:18.
With all due respect, as a Baha'i, I believe that Baha'u'llah was the Messiah and the return of Christ and that the Old Testament and New Testament prophecies have been fulfilled or are in the process of being fulfilled. We are living in the messianic age which was ushered in by the Bab and Baha'u'llah in 1844 but there is no reason to believe that all the messianic prophecies will be fulfilled in a short period of time. Humanity did not get this way overnight, it took thousands of years, so there is no logical reason to think that humanity will change overnight.

Of course I say that because I do not believe in magic or that God is going to do anything for humans. God sent the Messiah and the purpose of the Messiah was to reveal the scriptures and garner a few followers who would carry His message to everyone in the world and establish a religion in His name These scriptures contain the blueprint instructions that humanity will use to bring about everlasting world peace, justice, and righteousness. The Kingdom of God will be established on earth as it is in heaven but it will take some time.

I believe that it in the future everyone will believe in God and there will be only one religion, because that is what God has ordained.

“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error.”
The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 91


We all have different beliefs and of course nobody can prove what will happen in the future, so there is no point arguing about it. The difference between the Baha'i Faith and Judaism and Christianity is that we already have something concrete that is fully functioning in the world, the beginnings of a new world order. The Jews and Christians only have a hope.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Why is it assumed that there is no proof God exists? All the secrets of the universe are all around us. Perhaps, it's a test of Intelligence.

In this time based causal universe, God's actions can be seen. Perhaps following the bread crumbs will lead to the proof those that seek desire.

One must remember that this world is not about God. It is about us. It was created for us and our learning.

Free choice is crucial to true learning. God does not want to intimidate our choices therefore the proof can only be found by those who truly Understand and will not be intimidated. Can you say that you are there?

I think most everyone is capable of Discovering God for themselves. On the other hand, how many really want to find God?

Everyone now has proof I exist. As I see it, God doesn't have to be a Belief. Proof of God does exist. On the other hand, it takes hard work to get there. As with all knowledge, it is not served up on a silver platter. As I see it the only thing keeping you from the proof is yourself.
Yes, I think that it is a test of intelligence. But also some people do not want to have to exert any effort to Discover God. They want God to come to them and prove Himself to them, as if God owes them that.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Doesn't make any difference.

The "proof" would be up to us to ascertain, and if god decided not to leave the appropriate pieces of evidence around we'd be up the creek
That's exactly it. God being omnipotent has nothing to do with it because an omnipotent God only does what it chooses to do. So if it does not want to provide proof there won't be any.
And you know this to be a fact because _____of my religion_______________________________ .
Again, you know this to be a fact because _____of my religion______________________________.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I respectfully suggest that preferring an objective standard of truth isn't 'the height of arrogance' but simple common sense, surely?
I do not think it is arrogance to prefer an objective standard of truth, but it is arrogance when an atheist like the one I quoted in the OP puts demands on God to prove His existence.
How is it common sense NOT to prefer the most objective standard available?
You can prefer whatever you want but you are only going to get what God provides, and that is not objective evidence...
As always, it has been a pleasure talking to you... :)
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I do not think it is arrogance to prefer an objective standard of truth, but it is arrogance when an atheist like the one I quoted in the OP puts demands on God to prove His existence.

You can prefer whatever you want but you are only going to get what God provides, and that is not objective evidence...
What's this God thing you're talking about, exactly?
As always, it has been a pleasure talking to you... :)
And exactly so on my side!
 
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