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And i thought we were discussing the significance and loneliness of numbers,thats maths(ish) aint it?
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Does the Existence of Mathematics Depend on the Existence of the Universe?
- Thread starter Sunstone
- Start date
You still here?
And i thought we were discussing the significance and loneliness of numbers,thats maths(ish) aint it?
Knowledge of mathematics is a configuration of the "living." And we need life for a Universe. No Universe, no math.
lol. Ask an engineer, then ask a technician.
Pure mathematics might be relegated to Plato's World of Forms, which cannot perfectly manifest in our physical reality. You cannot draw a "perfect" circle because such a representation would have to be free from any quantum elements, but you can easily imagine the concept of a perfect circle.
Pure mathematics might be relegated to Plato's World of Forms, which cannot perfectly manifest in our physical reality. You cannot draw a "perfect" circle because such a representation would have to be free from any quantum elements, but you can easily imagine the concept of a perfect circle.
Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
Wait...did we just catch a glimpse of Mrs. Revoltingest?
She's invisible.
So you didn't.
PureX
Veteran Member
The interesting thing about this is that the imagined perfect circle then does "exist" in the universe, ... as a metaphysical conception; transcendent of the physical laws and limitations that generated it.
Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
Mathematics involve relationships, and so require a subject to define and measure them. I can say 1+1=2 only because I have defined "1" and put it into a relationship with something else also "1" and defined this relationship as "2."
Shibari rope, color unimportant as long as it is used by a confident hand.
Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
Gotcha! (Wink, wink.)
Skwim
Veteran Member
Yes
Like all sciences, as a science of number, quantity, and space mathematics depends on sentient creatures to carry it out, and sentient creatures require the existence of a universe in which to operate.,
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Let's do a thought experiment.....
We see particular postulates & structures in mathematics.
Suppose our universe ceases.
Suppose another universe arises. It could have different
physics, but we'll assume that intelligent life ensues.
Would they develop mathematics?
Would it have the same postulates & structures?
If so, this would point to existence independent of a universe.
Skwim
Veteran Member
Yup, but don't forget the OP question,
"Does the Existence of Mathematics Depend on the Existence of the Universe?"
The scenario you present assumes the existence of a universe.
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Oh, I remember the OP.
But if mathematical postulates & structures arise in any universe,
this points to their existing as I said, ie, independent of a universe.
The universe only provides sentient beings who will discover math.
A thing discovered doesn't depend upon the discoverer for existence.
Ponder This
Well-Known Member
Mathematics doesn't have physical existence. So it doesn't exist in any physical universe. So it doesn't exist in our universe.
Skwim
Veteran Member
Oh, I agree, but the OP wasn't addressing the nuts and bolts of mathematical expressions, but "mathematics" itself, which by definition is a science,
math·e·mat·ics
/maTH(ə)ˈmadiks/
noun
noun: mathematics; noun: applied mathematics; noun: pure mathematics
the abstract science of number, quantity, and space. Mathematics may be studied in its own right ( pure mathematics ), or as it is applied to other disciplines such as physics and engineering ( applied mathematics ).
/maTH(ə)ˈmadiks/
noun
noun: mathematics; noun: applied mathematics; noun: pure mathematics
the abstract science of number, quantity, and space. Mathematics may be studied in its own right ( pure mathematics ), or as it is applied to other disciplines such as physics and engineering ( applied mathematics ).
which takes a sentient mind to carry out, and in turn requires a universe in which to operate. So, while the relationships among numbers exists independent of any universe, the science that investigates and uses these relationships is not. It requires a universe of some sort.
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As was I.
Not the language of it, but the fundamental structures.
Your argument reminds me of the question....
If a tree falls in a forest, & no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?
A thing can exist even if no sentient being experiences it.
And even if there's no universe for math to play out, it will
patiently wait for a universe to experience it.
Skwim
Veteran Member
All of which depends on how one defines "sound."
If, in this case, "sound" simply means vibrations traveling through the air created by the falling tree, then yes, the falling tree does make a sound.
But if "sound" requires that these vibrations be picked in any way, say by an ear or microphone, and there is no such receiver, then, no, the falling tree doesn't make a sound.
.
.
See below....
Well, there you go.
Sound doesn't require detection in order to exist.
Would you say that it's silent everywhere that there's no sound detector?
If so, it must be dark everywhere there's no light detector.
We Never Know
No Slack
Nope. Other species have their own language and play games.
You can use mathematics to explain the existence of what we call reality from today all the way back to the few milliseconds before the big bang occured. Then all the sudden the math doesn't make sense anymore.
So yes the existence of math is dependent on the universe because math cannot fully explain everything.
I'm gonna say myself, in a police officers outfit, she just doesn't know it yet.
