• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Are all religions cults?

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
If this is in an inappropriate forum, mods please move.
Lately I’ve been watching a lot of “ex” whatevers. People who left very controlling religions and call out such behaviour. Which has greatly fascinated me. As a Dharmic, forging one’s spiritual path is something of a matter of pride. Something expected even.
Having “apostate” thoughts isn’t a cause for disfellowship or anything like that. It’s almost encouraged. This does not seem to be the case for the “exes” that I’ve been watching.

So I never really understood the Abrahamic paradigm of the apostates or atheists or anything like that. Not really.

I dabbled with this idea in the past and perhaps I’m finally ready to truly entertain it.

But, if we go by the “BITE” model of what a cult is, does all religion necessarily fall under such a model?
If so, why?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If this is in an inappropriate forum, mods please move.
Lately I’ve been watching a lot of “ex” whatevers. People who left very controlling religions and call out such behaviour. Which has greatly fascinated me. As a Dharmic, forging one’s spiritual path is something of a matter of pride. Something expected even.
Having “apostate” thoughts isn’t a cause for disfellowship or anything like that. It’s almost encouraged. This does not seem to be the case for the “exes” that I’ve been watching.

So I never really understood the Abrahamic paradigm of the apostates or atheists or anything like that. Not really.

I dabbled with this idea in the past and perhaps I’m finally ready to truly entertain it.

But, if we go by the “BITE” model of what a cult is, does all religion necessarily fall under such a model?
If so, why?
Behavior, Information, Thought and Emotion Control

I think that it is obvious that God will not use control over the creation and so any group who uses it is a cult, imo.
 
But, if we go by the “BITE” model of what a cult is, does all religion necessarily fall under such a model?
If so, why?

In general, mass religions don't seem to me to meet the criteria. While obviously some forms cover some of them, this is a bit specious. Scale is everything as the model can't work on a large, impersonal scale. The cult needs sufficient control over an individual's life which can only be done via personal relationships.

(also: One point of that model is 'discourage individualism'.

Individualism is itself the product of a worldview rather than being a 'default' position. Western individualism is arguably mostly an offshoot of Christianity, particularly Protestantism)
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
But, if we go by the “BITE” model of what a cult is, does all religion necessarily fall under such a model?
If so, why?

Never heard of the "BITE model" and I wager many others haven't either, so it would be really helpful to include that reference and information so people can more properly address your question. I mean, even without you telling us what that means, the answer is going to be "no" given how heterogenous religion is, but still.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
If this is in an inappropriate forum, mods please move.
Lately I’ve been watching a lot of “ex” whatevers. People who left very controlling religions and call out such behaviour. Which has greatly fascinated me. As a Dharmic, forging one’s spiritual path is something of a matter of pride. Something expected even.
Having “apostate” thoughts isn’t a cause for disfellowship or anything like that. It’s almost encouraged. This does not seem to be the case for the “exes” that I’ve been watching.

So I never really understood the Abrahamic paradigm of the apostates or atheists or anything like that. Not really.

I dabbled with this idea in the past and perhaps I’m finally ready to truly entertain it.

But, if we go by the “BITE” model of what a cult is, does all religion necessarily fall under such a model?
If so, why?
I don't see this as a binary "yes it's a cult/no it's not" thing. Instead, I really like Rick Ross's signs of safe and unsafe groups and leaders:

Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.
  1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
  2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
  3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.
  4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
  5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
  6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
  7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.
  8. Followers feel they can never be "good enough".
  9. The group/leader is always right.
  10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.
Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.
  1. Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.
  2. Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.
  3. Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".
  4. Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.
  5. Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.
  6. Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.
  7. A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.
  8. Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.
  9. Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.
  10. Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.
Ten signs of a safe group/leader.
  1. A safe group/leader will answer your questions without becoming judgmental and punitive.
  2. A safe group/leader will disclose information such as finances and often offer an independently audited financial statement regarding budget and expenses. Safe groups and leaders will tell you more than you want to know.
  3. A safe group/leader is often democratic, sharing decision making and encouraging accountability and oversight.
  4. A safe group/leader may have disgruntled former followers, but will not vilify, excommunicate and forbid others from associating with them.
  5. A safe group/leader will not have a paper trail of overwhelmingly negative records, books, articles and statements about them.
  6. A safe group/leader will encourage family communication, community interaction and existing friendships and not feel threatened.
  7. A safe group/leader will recognize reasonable boundaries and limitations when dealing with others.
  8. A safe group/leader will encourage critical thinking, individual autonomy and feelings of self-esteem.
  9. A safe group/leader will admit failings and mistakes and accept constructive criticism and advice.
  10. A safe group/leader will not be the only source of knowledge and learning excluding everyone else, but value dialogue and the free exchange of ideas.
Warning Signs

The reasons I like this approach:

- it recognizes that there are gradations in risk and harm. One group can be more dangerous than another without meeting some arbitrary line to qualify as a "cult."

- it's largely based on the relationship between the group and the member, so a religion might qualify as a dangerous group for some members even if it isn't particularly dangerous for the majority of members.

- it acknowledges that dangerous groups don't necessarily put themselves forward as religions.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
In general, mass religions don't seem to me to meet the criteria. While obviously some forms cover some of them, this is a bit specious. Scale is everything as the model can't work on a large, impersonal scale. The cult needs sufficient control over an individual's life which can only be done via personal relationships.

(also: One point of that model is 'discourage individualism'.

Individualism is itself the product of a worldview rather than being a 'default' position. Western individualism is arguably mostly an offshoot of Christianity, particularly Protestantism)
I’m leaning towards the opinion that all religions fall under the “BITE” model to varying degrees. Because religious largely controls such aspects of humanity by default. I don’t think all religions necessarily qualify as cults under the model. But I do think the control they can exert might not always be healthy.
 

leov

Well-Known Member
If this is in an inappropriate forum, mods please move.
Lately I’ve been watching a lot of “ex” whatevers. People who left very controlling religions and call out such behaviour. Which has greatly fascinated me. As a Dharmic, forging one’s spiritual path is something of a matter of pride. Something expected even.
Having “apostate” thoughts isn’t a cause for disfellowship or anything like that. It’s almost encouraged. This does not seem to be the case for the “exes” that I’ve been watching.

So I never really understood the Abrahamic paradigm of the apostates or atheists or anything like that. Not really.

I dabbled with this idea in the past and perhaps I’m finally ready to truly entertain it.

But, if we go by the “BITE” model of what a cult is, does all religion necessarily fall under such a model?
If so, why?
It, a cult, can happen to any religion. Wrong attitude of a guru and misunderstandings of the pupils.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
In the academic field of Comparative Religious Studies, all religious groups - from the smallest to the largest -- are often enough referred to either as "cults" or as "culti"
 

susanblange

Active Member
If this is in an inappropriate forum, mods please move.
Lately I’ve been watching a lot of “ex” whatevers. People who left very controlling religions and call out such behaviour. Which has greatly fascinated me. As a Dharmic, forging one’s spiritual path is something of a matter of pride. Something expected even.
Having “apostate” thoughts isn’t a cause for disfellowship or anything like that. It’s almost encouraged. This does not seem to be the case for the “exes” that I’ve been watching.

So I never really understood the Abrahamic paradigm of the apostates or atheists or anything like that. Not really.

I dabbled with this idea in the past and perhaps I’m finally ready to truly entertain it.

But, if we go by the “BITE” model of what a cult is, does all religion necessarily fall under such a model?
If so, why?
 

susanblange

Active Member
If this is in an inappropriate forum, mods please move.
Lately I’ve been watching a lot of “ex” whatevers. People who left very controlling religions and call out such behaviour. Which has greatly fascinated me. As a Dharmic, forging one’s spiritual path is something of a matter of pride. Something expected even.
Having “apostate” thoughts isn’t a cause for disfellowship or anything like that. It’s almost encouraged. This does not seem to be the case for the “exes” that I’ve been watching.

So I never really understood the Abrahamic paradigm of the apostates or atheists or anything like that. Not really.

I dabbled with this idea in the past and perhaps I’m finally ready to truly entertain it.

But, if we go by the “BITE” model of what a cult is, does all religion necessarily fall under such a model?
If so, why?
All religions started out as a cult. Abraham was the main instigator of three religions. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Jesus started Christianity, and Muhammed started Islam.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
If this is in an inappropriate forum, mods please move.
Lately I’ve been watching a lot of “ex” whatevers. People who left very controlling religions and call out such behaviour. Which has greatly fascinated me. As a Dharmic, forging one’s spiritual path is something of a matter of pride. Something expected even.
Having “apostate” thoughts isn’t a cause for disfellowship or anything like that. It’s almost encouraged. This does not seem to be the case for the “exes” that I’ve been watching.

So I never really understood the Abrahamic paradigm of the apostates or atheists or anything like that. Not really.

I dabbled with this idea in the past and perhaps I’m finally ready to truly entertain it.

But, if we go by the “BITE” model of what a cult is, does all religion necessarily fall under such a model?
If so, why?


Of course.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member

Thanks, that helps. There are definitely many religions that fail to fit that model. The religions I have the most familiarity with all fail to fit that model, for instance. It's important to recognize that any and all human social organizations might have those characteristics. It's also important to recognize that organizations bearing significant levels of such characteristics are neither widespread nor commonplace. Attempts to claim "all types of human social group X are cults" is inevitably unhelpful as a result.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
If this is in an inappropriate forum, mods please move.
Lately I’ve been watching a lot of “ex” whatevers. People who left very controlling religions and call out such behaviour. Which has greatly fascinated me. As a Dharmic, forging one’s spiritual path is something of a matter of pride. Something expected even.
Having “apostate” thoughts isn’t a cause for disfellowship or anything like that. It’s almost encouraged. This does not seem to be the case for the “exes” that I’ve been watching.

So I never really understood the Abrahamic paradigm of the apostates or atheists or anything like that. Not really.

I dabbled with this idea in the past and perhaps I’m finally ready to truly entertain it.

But, if we go by the “BITE” model of what a cult is, does all religion necessarily fall under such a model?
If so, why?

Are all religions 'cults?"[/quote]

Yes. They all are.

cult
/kəlt/

Learn to pronounce
noun
  1. a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.

THAT makes all religions cults.

Of course, the other definitions of 'cult,' which go:

  • a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.
    "a network of Satan-worshiping cults"
    synonyms: sect, religious group, denomination, religious order, church, faith, faith community, belief, persuasion, affiliation, movement; More
  • a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing.
    "a cult of personality surrounding the leaders"
    synonyms: obsession with, fixation on, mania for, passion for; More
Are all in the eye of the beholder. Basically, it means 'your beliefs are weird and I don't like you."

Given that every single belief system out there (including atheistic ones) have detractors who say 'your beliefs are weird and I don't like you," that pretty much makes every belief system a cult, and every person who identifies with any sort of group at all a cultist.

Now if I am going to describe a group which uses mind control and outright lies to control the membership, combined with threats to person, family or friends to keep that person in the group, I would use 'destructive mind control group' so that everybody would know precisely what I was talking about, and then I would expect to be asked for proof.

BTW, I looked up the 'BITE model, and I was forcibly struck by just how well the liberal left in the USA qualifies, as illustrated by my recent experience with Ravelry....and my even more recent experience shopping in Los Angeles during my stay there for radiation treatments. Good heavens. Talk about thought, mind, behavior and emotional control! The knitting shop I went into had '***** hat' patterns and hats all over the store, but when I asked for yarn for a patriotic theme (red, white and blue, seriously) I was told that I was a white supremacist and had no business there. AFTER, of course, I had paid for the yarn I did get. Next door there was a sign saying that all religions, all races, all genders, all levels of ability (or disability) and all ethnicities were welcome, and would be 'safe' in that store (a book store).

(which raises the question....if everybody is welcome, why does there need to be a sign?)

I walked in and asked for Ayn Rand and was told to leave because I wasn't welcome.

yep, I know what a mind and behavior control group looks like, and if I were to buy into your definition.....well....

But I don't. I think that such groups need more adjectives.

I felt really safe there, yep.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Are all religions 'cults?"

Yes. They all are.

cult
/kəlt/

Learn to pronounce
noun
  1. a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.

THAT makes all religions cults.

Of course, the other definitions of 'cult,' which go:

  • a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.
    "a network of Satan-worshiping cults"
    synonyms: sect, religious group, denomination, religious order, church, faith, faith community, belief, persuasion, affiliation, movement; More
  • a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing.
    "a cult of personality surrounding the leaders"
    synonyms: obsession with, fixation on, mania for, passion for; More
Are all in the eye of the beholder. Basically, it means 'your beliefs are weird and I don't like you."

Given that every single belief system out there (including atheistic ones) have detractors who say 'your beliefs are weird and I don't like you," that pretty much makes every belief system a cult, and every person who identifies with any sort of group at all a cultist.

Now if I am going to describe a group which uses mind control and outright lies to control the membership, combined with threats to person, family or friends to keep that person in the group, I would use 'destructive mind control group' so that everybody would know precisely what I was talking about, and then I would expect to be asked for proof.

BTW, I looked up the 'BITE model, and I was forcibly struck by just how well the liberal left in the USA qualifies, as illustrated by my recent experience with Ravelry....and my even more recent experience shopping in Los Angeles during my stay there for radiation treatments. Good heavens. Talk about thought, mind, behavior and emotional control! The knitting shop I went into had '***** hat' patterns and hats all over the store, but when I asked for yarn for a patriotic theme (red, white and blue, seriously) I was told that I was a white supremacist and had no business there. AFTER, of course, I had paid for the yarn I did get. Next door there was a sign saying that all religions, all races, all genders, all levels of ability (or disability) and all ethnicities were welcome, and would be 'safe' in that store (a book store).

(which raises the question....if everybody is welcome, why does there need to be a sign?)

I walked in and asked for Ayn Rand and was told to leave because I wasn't welcome.

yep, I know what a mind and behavior control group looks like, and if I were to buy into your definition.....well....

But I don't. I think that such groups need more adjectives.

I felt really safe there, yep.
Did you really want an Ayn Rand book or were you testing them?
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Did you really want an Ayn Rand book or were you testing them?
Okay I have to ask what’s with this almost coded shame or denouncement of wanting to read Ayn Rand? Is this like an American inside joke or something? Is Ayn Rand slang for something bad?

I read Rand years ago, but nobody cared. Well my cousin did, but that’s because he’s an English teacher and was very eager to discuss it with me.

Granted I think there’s better philosophies out there. I liked Fountainhead the first time as a teenager. But drifted away from it when I found others I preferred. And maybe Ms Rand did hate the poor, I dunno. But why is it almost treated like a crime to order Atlas Shrugged or whatever?
 
Last edited:

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Originally, a cult was just a deity's community of worshipers. Bow it's colloquial meaning is a destructive, authoritarian religion, usually a new religious movement. Another issue is that the idea of religion as some discrete category of culture or behavior is a rather new concept. Pre-Christian cultures had no concept of religion as some separate thing. It was just part of the fabric of daily activity. This is still a hindrance to cultural understanding between the Abrahamic West and the largely Dharmic East and other indigenous cultures.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
If this is in an inappropriate forum, mods please move.
Lately I’ve been watching a lot of “ex” whatevers. People who left very controlling religions and call out such behaviour. Which has greatly fascinated me. As a Dharmic, forging one’s spiritual path is something of a matter of pride. Something expected even.
Having “apostate” thoughts isn’t a cause for disfellowship or anything like that. It’s almost encouraged. This does not seem to be the case for the “exes” that I’ve been watching.

So I never really understood the Abrahamic paradigm of the apostates or atheists or anything like that. Not really.

I dabbled with this idea in the past and perhaps I’m finally ready to truly entertain it.

But, if we go by the “BITE” model of what a cult is, does all religion necessarily fall under such a model?
If so, why?

How are religious cults different from a Cult of Personality?

Obviously, CNN and Fox are cultish too. The scientific community is also cultish. So is LGBT, NRA and Comicon.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Okay I have to ask what’s with this almost coded shame or denouncement of wanting to read Ayn Rand? Is this like an American inside joke or something? Is Ayn Rand slang for something bad?

I read Rand years ago, but nobody cared. Well my cousin did, but that’s because he’s an English teacher and was very eager to discuss it with me.
I don't know!
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Fred Rogers always said, "I like you just the way you are".
Any cult member does not say that about anyone on the outside of their group.
 
Top