• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Colossians 1:16 Jesus the Almighty, [John 1:3, Jesus is God incarnated

shmogie

Well-Known Member
shmogie, can I ask you why it is so important that the trinity is true? What would happen to Christ's sacrifice if he wasn't God? How would the mechanics of the ransom be affected if Jesus was 100% human and not God at all? How does the ransom sacrifice work? Why is Christ called our "redeemer"? How dis redemption work in Bible times? Can you explain?

Why is such an important belief (the very nature of the God we claim to worship) essentially unsubstantiated in God's word? How did it become the very foundation of Christendom's beliefs when there are no direct statements to support it?

Jesus never taught it....the Jews never believed their God was a triune entity, and there is not a single statement from Jesus himself, or from his Father that they are one of three equal parts to God? To the contrary, there are many statements from Jesus and his apostles that show there was no trinity in their religious concepts. It is a clear adoption from pagan beliefs. Google pagan trinities and see how many there are.....

As far as the scriptures go....read John 1:1 in the Interlinear....

There are two "gods" mentioned in that verse. In Greek "theos" is the word they use for their own deities. These "gods" were all identified by their names, and collectively, they were simply called "the gods". The meaning of "theos" in Greek is simply a "mighty one". Because the Jews had stopped using God's name, and Jesus was also called by the same title "Lord", the only way to distinguish between these 'divine mighty ones' was to use the definite article, (the) especially so when mentioning them together. I have explained this so many times and posted the Greek translation to highlight that very fact, but it continues to fall on deaf ears.

Read it in the Interlinear. You will see the definite article is used for "the Word" (ho logos) and "the God" (ho theos) but not for the Word being "ho theos".....the Word was just "theos" without the definite article in the second statement. You won't see that in the English translation because it suits them not to mention it. You can see it for yourself in a word for word Greek to English Interlinear. It's not just in the NWT.

In Greek it reads....."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God and the Word was god".
No definite article for the second theos, means "a god"...not "the God". This is how it is translated in many other verses. There is no indefinitive article ("a" or "an") in Greek, so translators must add it to make sense in English. How many times has "a" or "an" been used in NT scripture? To quibble over its use in this verse is ridiculous! The only reason it is disputed is because of the trinity, which was not even believed when the NT was penned.

No trinity argument stands up to scriptural scrutiny. There is inference and that is seized upon to push a blasphemy of monumental proportions. If Jesus is put in place of God or even on equal footing with him, it is a breach of the first Commandment (Exodes 20:3) and satan has been very successful in spreading his "weeds" all through Christendom. Getting the uneducated and unwary to separate themselves from the true God by substituting another "god" in his place. The fact that it is Jesus blinds them to the insidious substitution. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)
Actually, no JW argument condemning the Trinity stands up to scriptural investigation.

Verses in the OT speak of the plurality of God, and the NT firmly establishes it.

When I have time, in the near future, I will prove this to you.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I don't know if it's so evil as to be satanic, but it's sure wrong-headed, and it left a paper trail via what we know about the Church Councils that turned Jesus as the Jewish-sectarian Son of God into the Hellenized "God the Son". Not content with keeping Jesus as the heavenly Son of Man, the Greco-Roman church wanted to have a Pagan God they could see and touch - a God-Man, so they elected Jesus into the position of the Second Person in a "holy" Trinity...
Nonsense. The Trinity was a Christian concept long before the Council of Nicea.

It is found in the NT.

I am always amused when humans, using their paltry human logic, declare what God is, or isn´t.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Actually, no JW argument condemning the Trinity stands up to scriptural investigation.

Verses in the OT speak of the plurality of God, and the NT firmly establishes it.

When I have time, in the near future, I will prove this to you.

You could not provide anything that I have not seen and evaluated many times before. There is no direct statement for a trinity in the Bible. Please don't bother to provide inference. Only direct statements from either God or his Christ will confirm a three headed god with equal status.

The Jews have no trinity and any plurality mentioned in the OT is that which indicates excellence.....the "royal we".

The Shema states that only Jehovah (YHWH) is God....and he is "one". (Deuteronomy 6:4)
1 Corinthians 8:5-6 is confirmation that there is "one God...the Father"...AND "one Lord, Jesus Christ". So, why is there need to squeeze a trinity into scripture when it was never there in the first place?

It is interesting to me that you did not answer my questions....
Can you do that please?

You did not address the Greek rendering of John 1:1 and why the most important word is missing in the English translation to favor the trinity.
If you are basing you beliefs on the traditions of men (in this case a doctrine formulated by an apostate church) then you will have trouble finding a triune God in anywhere but non Abrahamic faiths.
 
Last edited:

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
No... she means that she doesnt agree with you. You have to remember that your making Jesus God.
The 'trinity' is what makes the Tetragrammaton, who you are calling Yahweh, G-d, into G-d, scriptually.

Why? Because of belief. As Judeo- Christians we have derived every argument under the sun, to say that the Tetragrammaton , is 'G-d', and not what you are unknowningly presenting, which makes Jesus the Tetragrammaton , and 'G-d' , into a different g-d, altogether.

Your argument makes the Tetragrammaton, who you are calling Yahweh, into "not g-d".

That is why I asked if you are practicing Judaism, because in Judaism, that doesn't happen, just going by direct
Exodus 3:2-14, so forth.
 
Last edited:

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You are using the JW Bible, the New World Translation. It mistranslates hundreds of words and verses, including John 1:1

You have made this claim before and when I asked for examples, you disappeared.

So I will ask you again....please provide these "hundreds" of mistranslations and I will show you why they are rendered the way they are.

It is always good to compare translations with Strongs Concordance. And to compare OT scripture with the Tanach.
You soon find out who has the correct rendering.
 
Last edited:

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
The 'trinity' is what makes the Tetragrammaton, who you are calling Yahweh, G-d, into G-d, scriptually.

Why? Because of belief. As Judeo- Christians we have derived every argument under the sun, to say that the Tetragrammaton , is 'G-d', and not what you are unknowningly presenting, which makes Jesus the Tetragrammaton , and 'G-d' , into a different g-d, altogether.

Your argument makes the Tetragrammaton, who you are calling Yahweh, into "not g-d".

That is why I asked if you are practicing Judaism, because in Judaism, that doesn't happen, just going by direct
Exodus 3:2-14, so forth.

"I'm terminating this conversation".
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
You have made this claim before and when I asked for examples, you disappeared.

So I will ask you again....please provide these "hundreds" of mistranslations and I will show you why they are rendered the way they are.

It is always good to compare translations with Strongs Concordance. And to compare OT scripturecwith the Tanach.
You soon find out who has the correct rendering.
No, I never disappeared. 126 times in the NT your translators use the name Jehovah, when it was never used in the original Koine Greek.

126 times your denomination decided to change the words of the Bible

Jehovah is not the name of God. no one knows how the tetragrammaton was pronounced.

The J did not come into use in English till the late 1500ś.

The tetragrammaton has no J sound in it.

So, your denomination added a word to the NT, that was never in the original.

You used a word you arbitrarily decided was the name of God, found no where in the OT or NT.

So, as a starter, please tell me under what authority your denomination was able to change the words of the Bible from the original source documents.

If the Bible was in error and you needed to correct it, how can anyone rely on any part of it ?
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
shmogie, can I ask you why it is so important that the trinity is true? What would happen to Christ's sacrifice if he wasn't God? How would the mechanics of the ransom be affected if Jesus was 100% human and not God at all? How does the ransom sacrifice work? Why is Christ called our "redeemer"? How did redemption work in Bible times? Can you explain?

Why is such an important belief (the very nature of the God we claim to worship) essentially unsubstantiated in God's word? How did it become the very foundation of Christendom's beliefs when there are no direct statements to support it?

Jesus never taught it....the Jews never believed their God was a triune entity, and there is not a single statement from Jesus himself, or from his Father that they are one of three equal parts to God? To the contrary, there are many statements from Jesus and his apostles that show there was no trinity in their religious concepts. It is a clear adoption from pagan beliefs. Google pagan trinities and see how many there are.....

As far as the scriptures go....read John 1:1 in the Interlinear....

There are two "gods" mentioned in that verse. In Greek "theos" is the word they use for their own deities. These "gods" were all identified by their names, and collectively, they were simply called "the gods". The meaning of "theos" in Greek is simply a "mighty one". Because the Jews had stopped using God's name, and Jesus was also called by the same title "Lord", the only way to distinguish between these 'divine mighty ones' was to use the definite article, (the) especially so when mentioning them together. I have explained this so many times and posted the Greek translation to highlight that very fact, but it continues to fall on deaf ears.

Read it in the Interlinear. You will see the definite article is used for "the Word" (ho logos) and "the God" (ho theos) but not for the Word being "ho theos".....the Word was just "theos" without the definite article in the second statement. You won't see that in the English translation because it suits them not to mention it. You can see it for yourself in a word for word Greek to English Interlinear. It's not just in the NWT.

In Greek it reads....."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God and the Word was god".
No definite article for the second theos, means "a god"...not "the God". This is how it is translated in many other verses. There is no indefinitive article ("a" or "an") in Greek, so translators must add it to make sense in English. How many times has "a" or "an" been used in NT scripture? To quibble over its use in this verse is ridiculous! The only reason it is disputed is because of the trinity, which was not even believed when the NT was penned.

No trinity argument stands up to scriptural scrutiny. There is inference and that is seized upon to push a blasphemy of monumental proportions. If Jesus is put in place of God or even on equal footing with him, it is a breach of the first Commandment (Exodes 20:3) and satan has been very successful in spreading his "weeds" all through Christendom. Getting the uneducated and unwary to separate themselves from the true God by substituting another "god" in his place. The fact that it is Jesus blinds them to the insidious substitution. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

I the case of this verse the universe is made FOR Jesus
This makes it hard to see how Jesus would NOT be God in some sense

I think the Trinity is important because it shows both love and power being together from one end of eternity to the other
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
The NT does not view Jesus as God. Even in John's Gospel Jesus explicitly excludes himself from the Godhead in John 17:3, where he calls the Father "you, the only true God". Later in John, Jesus says he's ascending to "my God and your God". Obviously only a creature can have a God, so Jesus can't be God.

The OP's scriptural citation - -

Colossians 1:16
16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

- - describes Jesus not as God, but rather as God's agent of creation. In the NT, God or Yahweh is the one and only Creator. Jesus is the means, the method, the vehicle and ordained agent of God's creative will. That is why Colossians says not that Jesus created all things, but rather that all things were created in him and through him.

If the NT thought that Jesus is God, then it would be replete with prayer to Jesus as God. However, NT prayer is never directed to Jesus as to God.
Rather, NT prayer is always addressed to God in or through Jesus - just as Colossians says that Creation took place in and through Jesus.

There is no unambiguous NT evidence that Jesus is God.
That's an interesting materialistic idea, and some religions do teach materialism, so that might be your belief.

However Jesus, being an incarnation, is different from being in Spirit form.

Now, since you seem to believe you know so much, do you know "who Jesus" would be in Spirit, form, if you're following the texts?

The problem here is that you are trying to tell me things that don't necessarily bear relation to Spiritual reality. Like, obviously you are unaware that Jesus , called a 'mediator', yet it's more than mediator. Jesus is the personal aspect of God, [it's a Triune.

Hey guess what. You don't realize that when you say , 'jesus isn't god', you are also saying the Tetragrammaton isn't god. Of course you didn't know that, because you lack spiritual knowledge, and frankly if you are meditating enough, you shouldn't be goofing like that.

Evening
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
I the case of this verse the universe is made FOR Jesus
This makes it hard to see how Jesus would NOT be God in some sense

I think the Trinity is important because it shows both love and power being together from one end of eternity to the other

You do have the First Amendment. I do not agree.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
the fact that Jesus is God, from the Bible

Jehovah=the Lord, pre-incarnate Lord
Jesus=Jesus , the Lord, 'Lord God'
Spirit

The High God,=the Heavenly God aspect
Jesus=The Lord in Spirit Form, the personal form of God, in Spirit form

The High God on the Throne=The Mighty God of gods, the Heavenly God on the Throne
Lord God=personal aspect of God, in Spirit form, the pre-incarnate of Jesus, "Lord with us"

Deuteronomy 6:4
'Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord'...

This means the Lord the God of Israel, the Judaic god, called Lord

Mark 12:29
'Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord'...
Jesus being the Lord, here, is calling Himself God, the Lord aspect of God,
The Judaic personal aspect of the Biblical God.

thusly you derive the personal god of the Christians, is Jesus, when incarnated, and in Spirit form, the Lord of Israel, of course the Lord of Judah




 
Last edited:

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
No, I never disappeared. 126 times in the NT your translators use the name Jehovah, when it was never used in the original Koine Greek.

126 times your denomination decided to change the words of the Bible

Jehovah is not the name of God. no one knows how the tetragrammaton was pronounced.

The J did not come into use in English till the late 1500ś.

The tetragrammaton has no J sound in it.

So, your denomination added a word to the NT, that was never in the original.

You used a word you arbitrarily decided was the name of God, found no where in the OT or NT.

So, as a starter, please tell me under what authority your denomination was able to change the words of the Bible from the original source documents.

If the Bible was in error and you needed to correct it, how can anyone rely on any part of it ?

Well thank you, now I have something to work with. I actually relish such opportunities. :)

So the "hundreds of times" we supposedly included the name of "Jehovah", we were in error....?

You do understand that the Jews had ceased to use God's name a long time before Jesus came to fulfill his mission? They had no authority from God to do so and they knew it.....that is why you will find the tetragrammaton in the Hebrew text to this day, but because they would substitute the title "Adonai" (Lord) when they spoke it, the pronunciation was eventually lost through lack of use.

Do you have a problem with "Jesus" name? Since there are no "J" names in Hebrew and you apparently have no problem seeing Jesus as God, why would you balk at "Jehovah" (the English translation of the divine name) and not also balk at "Jesus"? (the English translation of his name) Do you see the inconsistency? You would have to go and alter every Bible with "J" names in it because the majority of them incorporate the divine name.

So what about the tetragrammaton in the Greek Septuagint, which was the Hebrew scriptures translated into Greek, and used by Jews and also by Jesus apostles and disciple in the first century. Was the divine name found in the Septuagint?

"
23

The divine name in the ancient Hebrew letters used before the Babylonian exile.

25

The divine name in the Hebrew letters used after the Babylonian exile."

"...for centuries scholars thought that the Tetragrammaton was absent from manuscripts of the Greek Septuagint translation of the Old Testament, as well as from manuscripts of the New Testament. Then in the mid-20th century, something remarkable came to the attention of scholars—some very old fragments of the Greek Septuagint version that existed in Jesus’ day had been discovered. Those fragments contain the personal name of God, written in Hebrew characters."

This is a picture of the Greek Septuagint (below second from the left) with the Hebrew Tetragrammaton appearing in the Greek text in unaltered Hebrew characters....

35


It was humans who removed and substituted a title ("Lord") for the divine name...not God. He at no time told the Jews to stop uttering his name. Since they were told in Exodus 3:15 that this name was to be used by the generations of his people "forever".....they clearly let him down in this respect (and a lot of others respects as well.)

In the Septuagint pictured above we see that they did not substitute God's name in the Septuagint, but kept it......in the 5th century Axexandrinus Codex however, you can see the substitution of KC and KY (meaning "kyrios" or "Lord") for the divine name in Deuteronomy 18:15-16. Again with no authorization from God to alter his word.....so if you want to start going on about alterations...you need to go back way further than the NWT.
All we did was put it back where it originally was....where it belongs.

"Some Bible scholars acknowledge that it seems likely that the divine name appeared in Hebrew Scripture quotations found in the Christian Greek Scriptures.
Under the heading “Tetragrammaton in the New Testament,” The Anchor Bible Dictionary states: “There is some evidence that the Tetragrammaton, the Divine Name, Yahweh, appeared in some or all of the O[ld] T[estament] quotations in the N[ew] T[estament] when the NT documents were first penned.” Scholar George Howard says: “Since the Tetragram was still written in the copies of the Greek Bible [the Septuagint] which made up the Scriptures of the early church, it is reasonable to believe that the N[ew] T[estament] writers, when quoting from Scripture, preserved the Tetragram within the biblical text.”

Recognized Bible translators have used God’s name in the Christian Greek Scriptures.
Some of these translators did so long before the New World Translation was produced.

The manuscripts of the New Testament that we possess today are not the originals. The original manuscripts written by Matthew, John, Paul, and others were well used, and no doubt they quickly wore out. Hence, copies were made, and when those wore out, further copies were made. Of the thousands of copies of the New Testament in existence today, most were made at least two centuries after the originals were penned. It appears that by that time those copying the manuscripts either replaced the Tetragrammaton with Kuʹri·os or Kyʹri·os, the Greek word for “Lord,” or copied from manuscripts where this had been done.

Jesus used God’s name and made it known to others. (John 17:6, 11, 12, 26) Jesus plainly stated: “I have come in the name of my Father.” He also stressed that his works were done “in the name of [his] Father.” In fact, Jesus’ own name means “Jehovah Is Salvation.”—John 5:43; 10:25.

The divine name appears in its abbreviated form in the Greek Scriptures. At Revelation 19:1, 3, 4, 6, the divine name is embedded in the expression “Alleluia,” or “Hallelujah.” This expression literally means “Praise Jah, you people!” Jah is a contraction of the name Jehovah.

About the middle of the first century C.E., the disciple James said to the elders in Jerusalem: “Symeon has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name.” (Acts 15:14) Does it sound logical to you that James would make such a statement if nobody in the first century knew or used God’s name?

When copies of the Septuagint were discovered that used the divine name rather than Kyʹri·os (Lord), it became evident to the translators that in Jesus’ day copies of the earlier Scriptures in Greek—and of course those in Hebrew—did contain the divine name. Apparently, the God-dishonoring tradition of removing the divine name from Greek manuscripts developed only later."

Excerpts from....
Should the Name Jehovah Appear in the New Testament? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

A5 The Divine Name in the Christian Greek Scriptures — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

I believe that the divine name of God belongs in the Bible, where it was originally found, and that God has given it to his people, as indicated in Acts 15:14.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I the case of this verse the universe is made FOR Jesus
This makes it hard to see how Jesus would NOT be God in some sense

Can you see the contradictory nature of what you just said? If something is made "FOR" you, it was not made BY you. Someone else made it for you.
When the pre-human Jesus and his Father collaborated in the creative process, they worked together. (Genesis 1:26) The Father is God and his son was the agency "through" whom all creation came...his "Master Worker" (Proverbs 8:30-31).

Colossians 1:13-16...NASB
"13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.


15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him
."

You see here Jesus' role of the "redeemer"? Do you know how redemption works? Can you tell me how Jesus is a redeemer?

I think the Trinity is important because it shows both love and power being together from one end of eternity to the other

I understand people's attachment to the trinity and the fact that it is stressed as an important part of being a Christian...I was raised with those beliefs, but they never made a lick of sense to me. I tried hard to understand it but no one could explain it to me in any way that was understandable. :shrug:

But when I studied the Bible for myself, I discovered why the trinity was incomprehensible.....it simply wasn't true. It was an adoption made by an apostate church many centuries after Jesus died. I discovered trinities of Gods that existed long before Jesus even came to the earth. Trinities are nothing new...but the Jews never had one.

Your description above sounds very appealing, but it has nothing to do with Jesus being a ransomer...or redeemer.

The reason why Jesus is called "the last Adam" is because he had to pay back what the "first" Adam lost for his children.
1 Corinthians 15:45-47....NASB
"So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven."

A redeemer is one who pays a price for the release of one sold into slavery. In Bible times a father could incur a debt and sell one of his children into service to pay the debt off...much like a man might send his son or daughter out to get a job in order to help pay for a debt that he incurred.

Once the debt was paid in full, the slave went free.

Jesus is our redeemer because he paid the debt. What was owing? The exact price that Adam lost for all his children....a debt that none of them could ever pay on their own. God's law demanded "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth...a life for a life". In Adam's case, it was his perfect life that he lost and a sinful life was all he could pass on to his children. To cancel the debt, an equivalent life had to be offered for the scales of justice to balance.

All Jesus had to be was a perfect sinless human, born on earth through a human mother, but without sin. God produced such a human in the person of his son, who willingly came to earth and gave his life to free us all from sin and death.

There are several reasons why Jesus could not be God...
1) God is immortal and cannot die.
2) Mere humans cannot kill God.
3) Jesus is called "God's servant" so how can one part of God be a servant to his equal self?
4) Jesus never once claimed to be God incarnate, and he did not ever tell people to worship him or to pray to him.
5) Jesus called his Father "the only true God" without including himself.

If God had come to the earth as a man, then the ransom demanded would have been overpaid to the point of ridiculous.
Like paying 10,000,000,000 trillion dollars for a ransom demand of $10,000. Who would do that? God's justice did not demand it. All Jesus had to be was "sinless". The way God conceived him ensured that he was born without sin. The integrity and loyalty of the man himself, ensured that he would carry out his commission without wavering.

On the night of his arrest he was troubled about what was to befall him that night. He prayed fervently to his Father to "let this cup pass from me...yet let not my will, but yours be done". How does one part of God have a different will to his equal self?

The more you examine this doctrine, the more ridiculous it becomes. :confused:
 
Last edited:

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Colossians 1:16

'All things made by Him'...
Referring to Jesus


Anyone actually going to refute this?

Genesis 1:26

There's Jesus!
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
2 Corinthians 6:18
'almighty Lord'...


Ephesians 4:5-7

'One Lord, Jesus'...

How many lords do you have? How many gods?

'Hear O Israel the Lord our God is one Lord .'


 

calm

Active Member
John 1:3

Colossians 1:16

These verses are clearly saying that Jesus, the Lord, is the God whom all things were created, so forth. It's quite obvious.
Hebrews 1:8.

So, in a direct reading, not [whatever non direct argument your church makes, if you as a christian don't believe this, then what is your argument?

If there is only one Lord of Christians, believers, then

2 Corinthians 6:18
Has to mean Jesus.
'Lord Almighty'

If you don't believe this, how do you reconcile the direct words.
We're talking about direct words, here, however if you have some other argument, that's fine.

Agape! Shalom...
you're right. Jesus is the true God.
There are more scriptures that prove that Jesus is God.
  • God is the Lord of Lords (Deuteronomy 10:17), later it is revealed that Jesus is the Lord of Lords (Revelation 19:16).
  • God is the First and Last (Isaiah 44:6), Jesus himself is the First and Last (Revelation 1:17).
Both titles cannot be claimed by 2 different persons.
  • God calls himself the only Saviour (Isaiah 43:11), later we know that Jesus is the Saviour. (Luke 2:11)
  • God is the one who will judge the world (Psalm 98:9) (Joel 4), later it will be revealed that Jesus is this judge who will judge. (Matthew 25:31-46)
  • Everything was created through Jesus and by Jesus. (Romans 11:36) (Colossians 1:16-17)
  • He who sees Jesus sees God. (John 14:9)
  • Jesus is the Father. (Isaiah 9:6)
  • Jesus is called God (John 20:28-29) (Romans 9:5) (1 John 5:20) (Hebrews 1:8)
 
Last edited:

calm

Active Member
There are several reasons why Jesus could not be God...
1) God is immortal and cannot die.
2) Mere humans cannot kill God.
3) Jesus is called "God's servant" so how can one part of God be a servant to his equal self?
4) Jesus never once claimed to be God incarnate, and he did not ever tell people to worship him or to pray to him.
5) Jesus called his Father "the only true God" without including himself.
You have a misrepresentation of the Trinity, let me explain it to you.

Maybe you've sat in front of a PC and played or at least watched a video game where you take on the role of a character in that game. A few examples are TES5: Skyrim, Borderlands 2, Garry's Mod, Battlefield 4,... So if the concept is completely alien to you, now would be the possibility to get a little understanding about it via a gameplay trailer or something like that. In the following I will explain everything else with the example of Battlefield 4.
Battlefield 4 (BF4) is a so-called first person shooter, where you fight from the perspective of a soldier with and against other players to achieve various types of goals. So when I play BF4 I am that soldier on the battlefield. If I'm lying on the ground (as the character) and playing with other people, one of whom is a paramedic who's close to me, I'll ask them if they can help me and not if they can help my character, because while we're in the game, as mentioned above, we're those soldiers on the battlefield. Similarly, while playing, I don't say "The soldier from whose perspective I play this game died," but "I died," even though I'm still alive as a real person.
This concept can now easily be transferred to the Trinity. So when it is said that God is Jesus, it means, similar to BF4, that God lives from the perspective of man Jesus (compared to BF4 "playing from the perspective of a soldier") and therefore can die in this form as in BF4, without this having a significant influence on his real being (compared to BF4, see above "Similarly, I do not say "the soldier from whose perspective I play this game died", but "I died", although I am still alive as a real person").
So God is not in this world, God is in his world. Our whole world is like a "programmed game" by a programmer. And God is our programmer.
And through Jesus God came into our world. God was in Jesus. Everyone who has seen Jesus has seen God. When I see the character of a player in the game, I see the player in truth. The player is in his character. But God is not only a "player" but, as I said, the programmer himself.
Do you understand?
 
Last edited:
Top