Norway mosque shooting an 'attempted act of terror', police say

Spirit of Light · Aug 14, 2019

Road Less Traveled said:
In a believed system of karma and reincarnation, how can one be sure who is innocent, who is guilty, what are ‘manmade decisions’ vs. what are ‘universal karmic decisions’ working through people?

I personally don’t know the guy, or what went down so I won’t personally pass judgement if I’m not 100% certain.

In a karmic system yes the girl could have been shot because she had too much karma and her "soul" could not handle it, so she was going to die one way or the other. But it can be more complicated than that too. And I do not see the real reason since i don't have the ability to see the karma in other human beings. All i know is that karma is a black substance that measures how good or bad we are.
But since the man killed her, He is now having all of her bad karma.
example, if you punch someone, some of your good karma "white/good" karma goes over to that person, and his/her karma (negative) will be transferred to you.
Karma is a very difficult "thing" to understand, and even after more then 20 years as a Buddhist i do not know it fully

Spirit of Light · Aug 14, 2019

Ponder This said:
Um... okay... so death penalty is actually okay with you?

No, as I said I am against the death penalty because we humans should not condemn others to die. What I mean is that I personally am not afraid of dying or be harmed by others and then die.
Death to me is only a transformation of energy.

Ponder This · Aug 14, 2019

Amanaki said:
No, as I said I am against the death penalty because we humans should not condemn others to die. What I mean is that I personally am not afraid of dying or be harmed by others and then die.
Death to me is only a transformation of energy.

If death is only a transformation of energy, then what's the problem with the death penalty?
Or are you making a special exception for yourself? It's okay to sentence you to death but not okay to sentence other people to death? What about other people who aren't afraid of death?

Spirit of Light · Aug 14, 2019

Ponder This said:
If death is only a transformation of energy, then what's the problem with the death penalty?
Or are you making a special exception for yourself? It's okay to sentence you to death but not okay to sentence other people to death? What about other people who aren't afraid of death?

No, what i say is that the death penalty is wrong because it is a human who judges the other human being to die. we should not give orders to kill other human beings because we are all equal, we are all human beings. Just because someone has more "power" then others does not mean they are above them

Shad · Aug 14, 2019

Road Less Traveled said:
A lot is possible with human nature. Made up stories, blackmail, planted evidence, agendas, framing, people judging people inaccurately for crimes they never committed and eventually exonerated of/ or never exonerated of, false witnesses, murder, scapegoating, mistaking the fact that I or you or anyone wouldn’t do something therefore others wouldn’t either, etc.

That is why courts use evidence and have appeal courts. Your standard is nothing short of perfection which is absurd.

And then even the religious beliefs... the non-religious would have to take into account that they may be wrong and in error.

Most people do.

Even if you or I or anyone else were born as that guy... we may very well have done what he did, if he did.

Maybe, maybe not.

One can only fail-safe so much.

Yes

But yes, what can anyone that means well collectively do other than do what is in place?

Develop more systems like fail-safe or methods which find evidence like DNA testing.

Your standard is still unrealistic. Dump it.

Ponder This · Aug 15, 2019

Amanaki said:
No, what i say is that the death penalty is wrong because it is a human who judges the other human being to die. we should not give orders to kill other human beings because we are all equal, we are all human beings. Just because someone has more "power" then others does not mean they are above them

Then why are you okay with being killed?

Spirit of Light · Aug 15, 2019

Ponder This said:
Then why are you okay with being killed?

I am not afraid of death. So no matter if it does happen it is how my life should end. But of course, if I can run away from a shooter I would do that. I am not that stupid that I just would stand there looking at him waiting for him to shoot me.

Shad · Aug 15, 2019

Amanaki said:
I am not afraid of death. So no matter if it does happen it is how my life should end. But of course, if I can run away from a shooter I would do that. I am not that stupid that I just would stand there looking at him waiting for him to shoot me.

You know some people can not run away right?

Ponder This · Aug 16, 2019

Amanaki said:
I am not afraid of death. So no matter if it does happen it is how my life should end. But of course, if I can run away from a shooter I would do that. I am not that stupid that I just would stand there looking at him waiting for him to shoot me.

So your lack of fear of death is irrelevant (you would run away anyways; your lack of fear of death is not exhibited in any tangible, meaningful way).

If you accept that whatever way your life happens to end is the way that your life should end, then why can't you accept that the way anybody else's life happens to end is the way that it should end? Do you see the problem with having a different standard for yourself than you have for other people? If not, then why is it okay that this different standard exists whenever we talk about your death as opposed to someone else's death? Who is this 'I' you keep referring to when you say, "I am not afraid of death"?

Spirit of Light · Aug 16, 2019

Ponder This said:
So your lack of fear of death is irrelevant (you would run away anyways; your lack of fear of death is not exhibited in any tangible, meaningful way).

If you accept that whatever way your life happens to end is the way that your life should end, then why can't you accept that the way anybody else's life happens to end is the way that it should end? Do you see the problem with having a different standard for yourself than you have for other people? If not, then why is it okay that this different standard exists whenever we talk about your death as opposed to someone else's death? Who is this 'I' you keep referring to when you say, "I am not afraid of death"?

I think any person would try to run away if they had a gun pointed at them, But i did not say i would run away always, I actually been in the situation where a gun was pointed at my head, and i did not run. But that does not mean others will not be afraid of death itself. Did i say i don't believe others die when it is their turn? No, i did not say that. Every human being does die when it is their turn no matter if we understand it or not. But that does not make a killing the right thing to do.
When i speak i try to use my self as an example, not to put me before anybody else.
And the self you ask about, Its easier to say I, then it is to explain it is the being that Amanaki is living as in this body. But there is no self you can point at because everything is changing all the time. therefor it is not a true death when the body ceases to exist either, it is only a transformation

Ponder This · Aug 16, 2019

Amanaki said:
I think any person would try to run away if they had a gun pointed at them, But i did not say i would run away always, I actually been in the situation where a gun was pointed at my head, and i did not run. But that does not mean others will not be afraid of death itself. Did i say i don't believe others die when it is their turn? No, i did not say that. Every human being does die when it is their turn no matter if we understand it or not. But that does not make a killing the right thing to do.
When i speak i try to use my self as an example, not to put me before anybody else.
And the self you ask about, Its easier to say I, then it is to explain it is the being that Amanaki is living as in this body. But there is no self you can point at because everything is changing all the time. therefor it is not a true death when the body ceases to exist either, it is only a transformation

If everybody dies when it is their turn, then what is wrong with the death penalty?

If lack of fear does not make the death penalty a right thing to do, then why does fear make the death penalty a wrong thing to do?

If it is wrong to pass judgement on others, then isn't imprisonment or any other form of punishment what-so-ever also wrong?

Spirit of Light · Aug 17, 2019

Ponder This said:
If everybody dies when it is their turn, then what is wrong with the death penalty?

If lack of fear does not make the death penalty a right thing to do, then why does fear make the death penalty a wrong thing to do?

If it is wrong to pass judgement on others, then isn't imprisonment or any other form of punishment what-so-ever also wrong?

Death penalty is wrong because human beings should not judge who live or dies. We can't always ser the full truth to something that occure. The none physical things like karma

Ponder This · Aug 17, 2019

Amanaki said:
Death penalty is wrong because human beings should not judge who live or dies. We can't always ser the full truth to something that occure. The none physical things like karma

So... isn't Punishment of all sorts is wrong? The Death Penalty is just one of many different sorts of ... penalty.. and all such penalties are wrong. Imprisonment? Wrong. Fines? Wrong. All punishments are wrong and none of them are right. Isn't that so?

Spirit of Light · Aug 17, 2019

Ponder This said:
So... isn't Punishment of all sorts is wrong? The Death Penalty is just one of many different sorts of ... penalty.. and all such penalties are wrong. Imprisonment? Wrong. Fines? Wrong. All punishments are wrong and none of them are right. Isn't that so?

Again you try to twist my words to something i did not say.
A common "punishment" as I see it as Buddhist is the karmic law of the universe. But we as human beings should not harm others on purpose. meaning one person should not kill or make someone die by the death penalty.

Imprisonment is a more humane way of punishment and is not against any religion.
If you break the speed limit and get stopped by the police, yes you get a fine for it, that is not harmful to the person, except for money, but it is self-inflicted. because of speeding over the limit.

All i say is personally i am 100% against the death penalty. If you are for it, ok I can not stop your opinion of that.

Ponder This · Aug 17, 2019

Amanaki said:
Again you try to twist my words to something i did not say.
A common "punishment" as I see it as Buddhist is the karmic law of the universe. But we as human beings should not harm others on purpose. meaning one person should not kill or make someone die by the death penalty.

Imprisonment is a more humane way of punishment and is not against any religion.
If you break the speed limit and get stopped by the police, yes you get a fine for it, that is not harmful to the person, except for money, but it is self-inflicted. because of speeding over the limit.

All i say is personally i am 100% against the death penalty. If you are for it, ok I can not stop your opinion of that.

I am sorry, but I cannot understand your reasoning.

Previously you said that:

Amanaki said:
It is more of a punishment to be in prison then to end the murderer's life.

and now you say that:

Amanaki said:
Imprisonment is a more humane way of punishment

Moreover, every argument you've given against the death penalty appears to apply as an argument against imprisonment. I'm very sorry that you have not been able to make your reasoning clear to me. Perhaps, there is a genuinely good reason not to allow the death penalty. To be fair, I am not convinced that we should allow the death penalty, but you have failed to convince me we should disallow it. Perhaps in the future, you will be able to make your argument more coherent.

Spirit of Light · Aug 18, 2019

Ponder This said:
I am sorry, but I cannot understand your reasoning.

Previously you said that:

and now you say that:

Moreover, every argument you've given against the death penalty appears to apply as an argument against imprisonment. I'm very sorry that you have not been able to make your reasoning clear to me. Perhaps, there is a genuinely good reason not to allow the death penalty. To be fair, I am not convinced that we should allow the death penalty, but you have failed to convince me we should disallow it. Perhaps in the future, you will be able to make your argument more coherent.

I am a buddhist, buddhism teach us to not kill, life of an other human being is presious to us. It is not humans who should decide who live or die.
To sit in prision is far more of a punishment because then the person has the rest of his/her life to think of what they did.
If government kill this people, they did not learn anything and can not develop to become better human beings.

I accept that you do not see my point of reason for not killing.

Ponder This · Aug 18, 2019

Amanaki said:
I am a buddhist, buddhism teach us to not kill, life of an other human being is presious to us. It is not humans who should decide who live or die.
To sit in prision is far more of a punishment because then the person has the rest of his/her life to think of what they did.
If government kill this people, they did not learn anything and can not develop to become better human beings.

I accept that you do not see my point of reason for not killing.

I understand that you have a religious belief, but there's a lot more to unpack in what you just said, then perhaps you think there is. I understand that maybe you are just trying to say it as simply as you can: you prefer reformation attempts as a better way.

Spirit of Light · Aug 18, 2019

Ponder This said:
I understand that you have a religious belief, but there's a lot more to unpack in what you just said, then perhaps you think there is. I understand that maybe you are just trying to say it as simply as you can: you prefer reformation attempts as a better way.

Education is always the best way to learn, Even for someone who has committed a crime that is horrible, I see it is possible to give this person a chance to change and to become an honest good person, and if they are killed by Government in death-penalty they will not get that chance to show that they can be good people.

danieldemol · Aug 23, 2019

Ponder This said:
So... isn't Punishment of all sorts is wrong? The Death Penalty is just one of many different sorts of ... penalty.. and all such penalties are wrong. Imprisonment? Wrong. Fines? Wrong. All punishments are wrong and none of them are right. Isn't that so?

A government which wrongfully imprisons a person can financially compensate them personally, but you cannot compensate a dead person, as they have no use for finances.

Ponder This · Aug 23, 2019

danieldemol said:
A government which wrongfully imprisons a person can financially compensate them personally, but you cannot compensate a dead person, as they have no use for finances.

That's well said.
Although, people I have met do not regard any financial compensation as sufficient compensation for the impact of their (false) conviction and imprisonment upon their lives.

Norway mosque shooting an 'attempted act of terror', police say

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