Messianic Israelite
Active Member
Those of you who addressed your posts to me, I will endeavor to get back to you after the Sabbath.
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Should condoms be handed out
- Thread starter Messianic Israelite
- Start date
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- adultery condoms fornication sex
By "spiritually weak," do you mean "people who think it's okay to have sex?"
By "illicit sex," do you mean "sex you disapprove of?"
I'd rather you didn't, but I wouldn't pass laws to stop you.
What I was getting at is that you shouldn't try to force other people to live by your religion.
Not unless you want people like me to try to force you to live by our beliefs in return.
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There is a huge difference between attempting to get people to agree with you through discussion and moral suasion and attempting to pass laws against those actions you find to be immoral.
You certainly have a point of view that many share and it is one that should be heard and discussed. But, in the absence of a consensus on these matters, it isn't the role of the government to impose punishments on sexual activities (and I don't think it is even when there is a consensus--but that is another matter). Too many people fundamentally disagree with your goals, fundamentally disagree that your goals *are* moral, and fundamentally disagree with the background assumptions of your goals for it to be reasonable to pass punitive laws dictating your ideas on what is appropriate behavior.
So, yes, attempt to affect moral change by presenting your viewpoint. Argue your position as well as you can and try to convince people your way is the better way. But imposing your views on others is a different thing. Having a law using the government to punish behavior that you find immoral solely because of your religious views isn't the way of a free and secular society.
Yes, we understand that you believe this. But realize there are many that do NOT believe this. And out government is not supposed to impose a religion (see history for good reasons why not).
So, truthfully, what you believe about the Bible is irrelevant to those of us who don't take it to be a reliable source of information or morality.
Your OP was all about how you thought that public policy now should be informed by your religious beliefs.
I mean I would demand a say in the affairs of your religious institutions in the here-and-now. For instance, if your church inserted itself into my secular government, I would work to make sure that your church is subjected to the same rules as a secular government, and if your church failed to follow these rules, people could seek redress against your church and its leaders through the courts.
But if your organization becomes part of the government, we would get a say in how the Bible is interpreted.
As an example of what could happen:
Here in Canada, we have taxpayer-funded and government-run Catholic schools. As public entities, they're subject to things like the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, except to the extent that the Charter would go against Catholic teachings.
A few years ago, a girl attending a Catholic high school tried to take her girlfriend to the school prom. The school refused to allow this and the case ended up in court.
The judge ended up ruling in favour of the girl. He determined that a lesbian couple going to the prom didn't violate Catholic teachings... despite representatives of the Catholic Church saying that it did.
Would you like a secular court overruling your church on how it ought to interpret your scriptures and teachings? If your religious organization interferes with secular government, it will happen.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Let's look at the basics. People are going to have sex. No school or government or church is going to stop that. The result of that sex is often unwanted pregnancy or diseases. If condoms can help prevent even a few pregnancies or diseases then they should be handed out for free on every street in the country. Forget about morality or other concerns, stop the unwanted effects on people who will have sex regardless of the risks.
Skwim
Veteran Member
Boy, isn't that the truth. At the very beginning of the Torah tale the Hebrews decided to make nakedness shameful. Why? Who knows. It's never explained. And from then on all sorts crazy notions concerning sex and sexuality began appearing, all of which narrowed the acceptance of sex to the marriage bed, the primary reasons being:
1 Corinthians 7:1-2 (KJV)
Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
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The school educates, that includes giving a sense of right and wrong, ethical values. Are you saying schools should not teach children to be decent human beings?
Teenagers have sex. Teenagers have been having sex for literally thousands of years. Telling a teenager not to do something is a sure fire way to get them to do the thing.
I say hand condoms out like candy, at least that might reduce the spread of STDs.
When I was in high school, the world was more or less still reeling from the AIDS epidemic. I mean it wasn’t recent for us, but it was probably still on the minds of educators, because my sex Ed classes were very explicit about exactly what STDs were out there, how you could catch them and what to do if you did. Taught us how to use condoms and where to purchase them. Even gave us some for a “starter kit.” We even did a component (which I think should be mandatory) about consent.
Teens don’t always think things through. They’re not developed mentally enough in many cases. Teenagers are hormonal and often rebellious. Give them condoms to at the very least encourage responsible, safe sex.
The Church can teach its members about its moral stance. Everyone outside the Church is not obligated to care.
I say sex Ed should be completely comprehensive, frank and scientific. That includes giving out condoms.
Pragmatism over just saying “don’t do it” and practicing your shocked Pickachu face for when teen pregnancy happens.
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We Never Know
No Slack
Unless used, they will be as effective as a pill not taken.
The problem isn't in getting contraceptives to the younger generation(s), it's getting them to use them.
The Bible doesn't say that.
A marriage is not official in the Lords eyes until it had been consummated (sex). So basically when you have sex with anyone you are married to that person, as far as God is concerned.
So having sex while not legally married (by man's law) is not a sin.
Where this is a problem is people have sex with more than 1 person outside of marriage. Then that is when it is considered a sin.
Got a question for you though.
How do you justify saying the Bible is evil for saying sex is immoral?
You do realize that before birth control and contraceptives that sex had a higher chance at producing children correct?
Is not having sex with multiple people and not helping the mothers take care of the children immoral?
I think your moral compass is broken.
We Never Know
No Slack
Let's skip the small talk.
How many sexual partners does the bible say it is ok to have. 1, 15, 100, or that if you sleep with a woman you are then married to that woman?
Which will be 1 sexual partner because anything else would be a sin.
If you sleep with someone you are married to them (Biblically speaking).
No limit specified.
You can have more than 1 sexual partner, in your lifetime though. You just have to get a divorce. Divorce of course is immoral unless you have proof your partner has cheated on you with another. Then you are morally obligated to get a divorce and find another partner that will be faithful (hopefully).
Sand Dancer
Crazy Cat Lady
What a deity says does not reflect how we should act when it comes to reality. Yes, kids need birth control.
We Never Know
No Slack
"How do you justify saying the Bible is evil for saying sex is immoral?"
Marriage/one partner is a construct of humans. In the natural world without sex and sometimes multiple partners, most species would not survive.
So how can sex be immoral?
Sand Dancer
Crazy Cat Lady
Morality is relative. Kids are going to have sex. Supplying condoms to kids who are going to have sex is better than having pregnant kids.
This is ridiculous. Churches came into this later than people did. And people who go to church are no more moral than those who do not.
WTF???
If they are not being handed out within a religious community, then "breaking commandments", is not a secular government's concern. Not everyone believes as you do. And they aren't required to.
Furthermore, no handing out these things to those that want them is not encouraging them. They asked. They were already encouraged by their hormones. Do you blame God for encouraging them to want to have sex in the first place because God gave them their hormones so they would want to have sex?
I think people should be free to make their own choices, and at least by given them condoms you prevent problems that can come from that natural instinct to have sex that God encourages them to have by making them full of these hormones. We'd be helping God prevent unplanned families. So that's a good thing. Right?
Only 3-5% of species mate for life. This is true. But that just makes us special and different than most other animals.
Because producing multiple children with different partners but the partners don't team up to support the children is immoral. You do realize that the #1 contributing factor to abuse, crime, addiction, and poverty is single parent homes?
How can you say sex is moral when it is the cause of 4 of the worst afflictions humans deal with?
We Never Know
No Slack
You are only going by human rules. 99% of the rest of the species don't follow human rules. We are just another animal on this rock. We are no more special than any other species.
However our brains have evolved to a state to give us technology and other things other species don't have.
You think that makes us a special species? It makes us weak species because we are becoming dependant on our technology.
Well yes because we are humans. We are civilized. Would you like for us to go by animal rules? Natural selection would not favor most liberals in that world.
Actually 95-97% don't follow human rules. Nor should they, they are not humans.
True, but we are unique as well.
Yes we are, you even show evidence of it below.
Which makes us unique, or special.
Some of you yes.
I can walk out into the wilderness with what I have on me atm (nothing special just basic everyday stuff) and survive for quite awhile, perhaps indefinitely. Skills is all that is needed. Technology is a crutch.