The need for the Christian God?

paarsurrey · Aug 12, 2019

1213 said:
Bible tells that the wage of sin is death.

Jesus did not say it. If yes, please quote from him.

Regards

InChrist · Aug 12, 2019

ratiocinator said:
If everybody has fallen short of the of this god's standard, then said god made a shoddy job of creating us, didn't it? Either that or it's applying an inappropriate standard to its creation.

A 100% failure rate isn't a choice, it's a design flaw.

No, it is not a shoddy job or a design flaw. It is simply reality that any created being is going to be less than the Creator, lacking in perfection that only the Creator God possesses.

night912 · Aug 12, 2019

InChrist said:
No, it is not a shoddy job or a design flaw. It is simply reality that any created being is going to be less than the Creator, lacking in perfection that only the Creator God possesses.

Actually, going by your comment, there is a 3rd reason. The creator isn't perfect because he cannot create the perfect creation.

I'll add this. It's simply reality that it's possible for an imperfect being can create a perfect being. Example: Let's take dogs. Say I'm a dog breeder looking for a dog to have specific traits that I want. I can take dogs with traits that I want and do some selective breeding and get a dog that is perfect because it has all the traits that I was looking for.

So can a perfect being create another perfect being?

InChrist · Aug 13, 2019

night912 said:
Actually, going by your comment, there is a 3rd reason. The creator isn't perfect because he cannot create the perfect creation.

I'll add this. It's simply reality that it's possible for an imperfect being can create a perfect being. Example: Let's take dogs. Say I'm a dog breeder looking for a dog to have specific traits that I want. I can take dogs with traits that I want and do some selective breeding and get a dog that is perfect because it has all the traits that I was looking for.

So can a perfect being create another perfect being?

Your dog analogy is not applicable at all.

God is a unique Being; eternal, uncreated, perfect. ..there is only One God. When God created life, including humans, they were created good, but humans are not and never will be equal with God in His perfection or possess qualities which are His alone and which created physical beings cannot and do not have. God was not and cannot breed other gods.

So it stands to reason that finite beings would fall short and sin , as the scriptures indicate. Yet, God's love provides an opportunity for humans to be free from sin and find eternal perfection in Christ.

ratiocinator · Aug 13, 2019

InChrist said:
It is simply reality that any created being is going to be less than the Creator, lacking in perfection that only the Creator God possesses.

So your god is not omnipotent? Also, that still makes it god's fault, not ours.

1213 · Aug 13, 2019

paarsurrey said:
Jesus did not say it. If yes, please quote from him.

It is written in:

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

But, if we look at this:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

Righteous will have eternal life. Unrighteous will not have eternal life. If death means that person is without life, then I think Jesus is saying basically the same as in Romans 6:23.

InChrist · Aug 13, 2019

There

ratiocinator said:
So your god is not omnipotent? Also, that still makes it god's fault, not ours.

There are things that God cannot do... because He is God. Rather than diminish His omnipotence, the fact that there are things which a holy, one of a kind God cannot do, distinguishes Him as unique and the One true Creator God.

"But God is infinite in power, so there must be nothing He can't do! Really? The very fact that He is infinite in power means He cannot fail. There is much else which finite beings do all the time but which the infinite, absolutely sovereign God cannot do because He is God: lie, cheat, steal, sin, be mistaken, etc. In fact, much else that God cannot do is vital for us to understand in meeting challenges from skeptics."

What a Sovereign God Cannot Do - A Newsletter Classic

Shadow Wolf · Aug 13, 2019

Thirza Fallen said:
And boy, do they.

I'm convinced the MidWest has an abundance of Bible Thumping Jesus haters. And I think Jesus agrees.

ratiocinator · Aug 14, 2019

InChrist said:
There
There are things that God cannot do... because He is God. Rather than diminish His omnipotence, the fact that there are things which a holy, one of a kind God cannot do, distinguishes Him as unique and the One true Creator God.

"But God is infinite in power, so there must be nothing He can't do! Really? The very fact that He is infinite in power means He cannot fail. There is much else which finite beings do all the time but which the infinite, absolutely sovereign God cannot do because He is God: lie, cheat, steal, sin, be mistaken, etc. In fact, much else that God cannot do is vital for us to understand in meeting challenges from skeptics."

What a Sovereign God Cannot Do - A Newsletter Classic

But according to you, this god of yours failed to make perfect beings. You also haven't addressed the point that it is totally unjust to create beings who cannot achieve your standards and them judge them achieving your standards.

Also, what happens when humans end up in heaven, are they suddenly going to become perfect and be able to achieve god's standard then? If so, this contradicts what you said before, and, anyway, why not start like that?

Your quote also brings up the Euthyphro dilemma: is lying, cheating, stealing, and so on, wrong because god has decided that they are wrong (they are god's laws) or is god subject to some higher law than itself? If the latter, where did that law come from?

InChrist · Aug 14, 2019

ratiocinator said:
But according to you, this god of yours failed to make perfect beings. You also haven't addressed the point that it is totally unjust to create beings who cannot achieve your standards and them judge them achieving your standards.

Also, what happens when humans end up in heaven, are they suddenly going to become perfect and be able to achieve god's standard then? If so, this contradicts what you said before, and, anyway, why not start like that?

Your quote also brings up the Euthyphro dilemma: is lying, cheating, stealing, and so on, wrong because god has decided that they are wrong (they are god's laws) or is god subject to some higher law than itself? If the latter, where did that law come from?

It is not unjust because God offers to all the choice (and it must be a personal choice each person makes) to be free from sin and anything which falls short of His standard and gives the opportunity to be made perfect in Christ and His righteousness. The scriptures indicate that the process of being transformed in Christ is a lifetime process called sanctification, which becomes complete when one enters heaven.

ratiocinator · Aug 15, 2019

InChrist said:
It is not unjust because God offers to all the choice (and it must be a personal choice each person makes) to be free from sin and anything which falls short of His standard and gives the opportunity to be made perfect in Christ and His righteousness.

Firstly, it isn't a real choice at all. There is no clear message from any god about this. You represent just one of countless religions, cults, and sects in the world that each claim to know the truth. What's more, your message is nonsensical,because...

Secondly, it still isn't just to put people under condemnation and in need of being "made perfect" through no fault of their own. It is still god condemning what it created for being what it created.

night912 · Aug 15, 2019

InChrist said:
Your dog analogy is not applicable at all.

God is a unique Being; eternal, uncreated, perfect. ..there is only One God. When God created life, including humans, they were created good, but humans are not and never will be equal with God in His perfection or possess qualities which are His alone and which created physical beings cannot and do not have. God was not and cannot breed other gods.

So it stands to reason that finite beings would fall short and sin , as the scriptures indicate. Yet, God's love provides an opportunity for humans to be free from sin and find eternal perfection in Christ.

My dog anology is applicable here. It shows that even an imperfect being can create a perfect being. One would think that since that's possible, it would reasonable to say it's possible for a perfect being to create a perfect being.

What you are saying here doesn't answer the question, "Can god create a perfect being?" You've only answered, "god chooses to not create a perfect being."

In conclusion, god either, is able/unable to create a perfect being, but knowingly created an imperfect being yet hold it to the standard of a perfect being, in that case, it's the fault of god, and not the imperfect being. God is able/unable to create a perfect being, attempt to create a perfect being but unknowingly created an imperfect being, resulting in a build flaw. God is unable to create a perfect being, but thinking he created a perfect being and hold the imperfect being to the standard of a perfect being, that means it's the fault of an imperfect god. God cannot create a perfect being, and knowingly created an imperfect being holding it to the standard of a perfect being, making god an imperfect and malevolent god.

InChrist · Aug 15, 2019

ratiocinator said:
Firstly, it isn't a real choice at all. There is no clear message from any god about this. You represent just one of countless religions, cults, and sects in the world that each claim to know the truth. What's more, your message is nonsensical,because...

Secondly, it still isn't just to put people under condemnation and in need of being "made perfect" through no fault of their own. It is still god condemning what it created for being what it created.

God gave a clear revelation of His laws and He created humans with the ability to chose to obey or disobey. So the fault is our own.

InChrist · Aug 15, 2019

night912 said:
My dog anology is applicable here. It shows that even an imperfect being can create a perfect being. One would think that since that's possible, it would reasonable to say it's possible for a perfect being to create a perfect being.

What you are saying here doesn't answer the question, "Can god create a perfect being?" You've only answered, "god chooses to not create a perfect being."

In conclusion, god either, is able/unable to create a perfect being, but knowingly created an imperfect being yet hold it to the standard of a perfect being, in that case, it's the fault of god, and not the imperfect being. God is able/unable to create a perfect being, attempt to create a perfect being but unknowingly created an imperfect being, resulting in a build flaw. God is unable to create a perfect being, but thinking he created a perfect being and hold the imperfect being to the standard of a perfect being, that means it's the fault of an imperfect god. God cannot create a perfect being, and knowingly created an imperfect being holding it to the standard of a perfect being, making god an imperfect and malevolent god.

For one thing, there are no perfect dogs. There may be dogs that look perfect. but all dogs misbehave at times and act obnoxious at times.
I did not say God "chose not to create a perfect being". I said there is only ONE PERFECT BEING and there can be no other being as God. God cannot create other Gods. The beings He chose to create were created GOOD, given freedom of choice to obey or disobey God's wisdom, yet chose to reject it resulting in imperfection-sin.

ratiocinator · Aug 16, 2019

InChrist said:
God gave a clear revelation of His laws and He created humans with the ability to chose to obey or disobey. So the fault is our own.

Just repeating your the points that I've already addressed, seems rather futile.

sojourner · Aug 16, 2019

Riders said:
Christianity teaches Christ blood is over the sins of Christians. They worship the diety who died for them.But with all the discussions of Christians trying to scientifically prove that Jesus is God the God not a God, the one and only you guys have not proved why people need a savior?

I personally don't see a need for a savior to save me and rescue me...........am I being saved from hell? i do not live in the future, I will not predict how my death will be but I am not afraid of death. I do not need my sins to be covered in Jesus blood.

So what i want to know is why? Why preach the gospel and why should anyone accept Jesus over any other religion, and what need does it serve, why do need a savior?

This is the same question and answer as “Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus.”

You’re arguing from a more surface and literal position of the Jesus myth. I believe there’s both a better way to look at it, and a better answer than many might provide.

Thoreau wrote in Walden, “The mass of [humanity] lead lives of quiet desperation, [and die with their song still inside them].” The last bracketed phrase is not in Walden, but is popularly attributed to it. I include it because it helps illustrate my answer.

One only has to look around the world to see why we need salvation: War, mass shootings, xenophobia, hatred, misogyny, race discrimination, disenfranchisement of the poor, human suffering, the ravaging of our planet, the status quo of power structures designed to lift the elite and subjugate the rest, a humanity in a crisis of individual self-interest, a nation full of obese, depressed people hooked on painkillers and Xanax. Many people do live lives of desperation and violence. I believe it’s because we’ve forgotten who we are.

You see, if “sin” exists, that sin is the forgetting of our true nature — beings created by and for love and right relationship with the world and others. We are beings who are inexorably part and parcel of the other we despise and the world we destroy. Were we to remember that, we would not despise and destroy.

Jesus came — not to magically “save” us from “hell,” but to remind us of who we really are. His crucifixion doesn’t satisfy an angry God, nor substitute our “repayment,” but offers a glimpse of the great cost of unmitigated love. Only when we love do we suffer with the loss of others. Only when we love can we truly forgive. Only when we show humility can we truly transcend the things that crucify us day by day.

I like to think that each of us has a “heart song” — a “tune” — a vibration — that is an echo of God’s voice in speaking the world into being. If you’re not religious, then call it an echo of the Big Bang. It’s a vibration that lives in our DNA and our cell memory. We’ve been taught to forget that song through the violence we experience in the world. Jesus comes to invite us to hear again our heart song, and thus restore ourselves to right relationship with the world, with ourselves, and others.

To me, that’s the Good News: that all are created in love and for love, and that each is loved beyond her/his wildest imagination. If we don’t learn to remember our heart song, we do live lives of desperation and die with that song still inside us. The goal of Christianity isn’t to change us into something other than we are. It’s to help us return to who we really are. it isn’t to coerce us to believe some specific creed or body of statements or dogma. It’s to allow us the space and opportunity to let our lives sing our heart song.

Riders · Aug 16, 2019

sojourner said:
This is the same question and answer as “Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus.”

You’re arguing from a more surface and literal position of the Jesus myth. I believe there’s both a better way to look at it, and a better answer than many might provide.

Thoreau wrote in Walden, “The mass of [humanity] lead lives of quiet desperation, [and die with their song still inside them].” The last bracketed phrase is not in Walden, but is popularly attributed to it. I include it because it helps illustrate my answer.

One only has to look around the world to see why we need salvation: War, mass shootings, xenophobia, hatred, misogyny, race discrimination, disenfranchisement of the poor, human suffering, the ravaging of our planet, the status quo of power structures designed to lift the elite and subjugate the rest, a humanity in a crisis of individual self-interest, a nation full of obese, depressed people hooked on painkillers and Xanax. Many people do live lives of desperation and violence. I believe it’s because we’ve forgotten who we are.

You see, if “sin” exists, that sin is the forgetting of our true nature — beings created by and for love and right relationship with the world and others. We are beings who are inexorably part and parcel of the other we despise and the world we destroy. Were we to remember that, we would not despise and destroy.

Jesus came — not to magically “save” us from “hell,” but to remind us of who we really are. His crucifixion doesn’t satisfy an angry God, nor substitute our “repayment,” but offers a glimpse of the great cost of unmitigated love. Only when we love do we suffer with the loss of others. Only when we love can we truly forgive. Only when we show humility can we truly transcend the things that crucify us day by day.

I like to think that each of us has a “heart song” — a “tune” — a vibration — that is an echo of God’s voice in speaking the world into being. If you’re not religious, then call it an echo of the Big Bang. It’s a vibration that lives in our DNA and our cell memory. We’ve been taught to forget that song through the violence we experience in the world. Jesus comes to invite us to hear again our heart song, and thus restore ourselves to right relationship with the world, with ourselves, and others.

To me, that’s the Good News: that all are created in love and for love, and that each is loved beyond her/his wildest imagination. If we don’t learn to remember our heart song, we do live lives of desperation and die with that song still inside us. The goal of Christianity isn’t to change us into something other than we are. It’s to help us return to who we really are. it isn’t to coerce us to believe some specific creed or body of statements or dogma. It’s to allow us the space and opportunity to let our lives sing our heart song.

Thanks for this

9-10ths_Penguin · Aug 16, 2019

InChrist said:
I see the need for a Savior because all have sinned and fall short of God's glory and perfection...except Jesus Christ the Savior, who is able to save all who call upon Him for forgiveness and eternal life.

If God's entire creation is so imperfect that it deserves to be discarded, then this doesn't reflect well on God's abilities as a creator.

Muffled · Aug 16, 2019

Riders said:
Christianity teaches Christ blood is over the sins of Christians. They worship the diety who died for them.But with all the discussions of Christians trying to scientifically prove that Jesus is God the God not a God, the one and only you guys have not proved why people need a savior?

I personally don't see a need for a savior to save me and rescue me...........am I being saved from hell? i do not live in the future, I will not predict how my death will be but I am not afraid of death. I do not need my sins to be covered in Jesus blood.

So what i want to know is why? Why preach the gospel and why should anyone accept Jesus over any other religion, and what need does it serve, why do need a savior?

I believe the fact that you don't know why reveals why you need one.

Muffled · Aug 16, 2019

Riders said:
Well I do sin but theres no reason I cant ask the people I sinned against to forgive me and I've dome of that,I also can ask my higher power to forgive me. I do not need the forgiveness of Jesus the savior.

I believe any higher power that isn't Jesus has no power over God who is all powerful.

The need for the Christian God?

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