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Place for Creationists to post their "reasonable tests" for their position

MikeDwight

Well-Known Member
"Do not test the Lord your God", shouted Jesus Christ the Lord before Creation, to Satan the Tempter, quoting Scripture, concerning a God who is unknowable, about a Creation not to be asked about. What are you looking for from Creation stories? This is ridiculous. The only appreciable attitude you could bring up is such as the Pope was hindering science, the earth is round, Galileo. Those sorts of problems. Point to me the guy in the modern day, there's some modern day Alabamian , not 1950, with his overalls and his Bible, saying, don't teach that to my kid. Where is that? Its not here. You're not having an appreciable attitude.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
That's an answer? OK!

I'm sure many have already explained to you how a process having random components, doesn't mean the entire thing is random.

I know, because I'm one of them.


Yes.

If you claim that life was "intelligently design", then you are making a positive claim to truth about the world that you need to support with testable evidence.

Positive claims have a burden of proof.
If you don't live upto your burden of proof, then nobody has any rational reason to accept your claim.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
No... In essence what I said is that there will be no test no matter what position one has. So we are all relegated to viewpoints. My "viewpoint" is simply to agree with one set of scientists while others will agree with another set.

That is why it is still in debate.

So, when you claimed to have a test in that other thread, where you refused to tell me what it was and told me that you would explain it in a seperate thread, you were lying?

You must have been lying, since now you are suddenly saying that no such tests exist?

So, I guess that's that then....
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I'm sure many have already explained to you how a process having random components, doesn't mean the entire this is random.

I know, because I'm one of them.

.

EXACTLY! Intelligent design and purpose driven. That's what all those scientists I quoted said.

Thank you!
 

MikeDwight

Well-Known Member
No not really, the one thing the Bible is amazing at is Satan is going that direction , God's going another direction, you don't have a lot of time for a decision, and people make every single choice without all the scientific certainty, they make every important decision without all the scientific certainty.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I think your "rewording" is wrong. It's more like a twisting of statements to create a "fake news" perspective.

So let me first lay down a foundation:

As everybody know, how the earth began is a matter of perspective. Scientist look at the same thing but coming up with different viewpoints.

Below you will find 7 theories of the origin of life which is part of the perspective of creation.

7 Theories on the Origin of Life

At this point there really isn't a "test" (as you suggested) to find out how it all began since the "test" would have to recreate and procreate life and, thus, you created a false narrative. Fake news.

So, my point, which was stated in another thread or the same one, is simply point why I believe in Creationism by quoting people of renown and are expert in their fields. Will there be counter point? Of course! If there are 7 theories, every scientist will try to defend there point. Do they prove Creationism wrong? Obviously not, for if they did there would be only 1 theory.

Fred Hoyle (British astrophysicist): "A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question."

George Ellis (British astrophysicist): "Amazing fine tuning occurs in the laws that make this [complexity] possible. Realization of the complexity of what is accomplished makes it very difficult not to use the word 'miraculous' without taking a stand as to the ontological status of the word."

Paul Davies (British astrophysicist): "There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all....It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature�s numbers to make the Universe....The impression of design is overwhelming".

Paul Davies: "The laws [of physics] ... seem to be the product of exceedingly ingenious design... The universe must have a purpose".

Alan Sandage (winner of the Crawford prize in astronomy): "I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing."

John O'Keefe (astronomer at NASA): "We are, by astronomical standards, a pampered, cosseted, cherished group of creatures.. .. If the Universe had not been made with the most exacting precision we could never have come into existence. It is my view that these circumstances indicate the universe was created for man to live in."

George Greenstein (astronomer): "As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?"

Arthur Eddington (astrophysicist): "The idea of a universal mind or Logos would be, I think, a fairly plausible inference from the present state of scientific theory."

Arno Penzias (Nobel prize in physics): "Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe which was created out of nothing, one with the very delicate balance needed to provide exactly the conditions required to permit life, and one which has an underlying (one might say 'supernatural') plan."

Roger Penrose (mathematician and author): "I would say the universe has a purpose. It's not there just somehow by chance."

Tony Rothman (physicist): "When confronted with the order and beauty of the universe and the strange coincidences of nature, it's very tempting to take the leap of faith from science into religion. I am sure many physicists want to. I only wish they would admit it."

Vera Kistiakowsky (MIT physicist): "The exquisite order displayed by our scientific understanding of the physical world calls for the divine."

Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."

Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics): "When I began my career as a cosmologist some twenty years ago, I was a convinced atheist. I never in my wildest dreams imagined that one day I would be writing a book purporting to show that the central claims of Judeo-Christian theology are in fact true, that these claims are straightforward deductions of the laws of physics as we now understand them. I have been forced into these conclusions by the inexorable logic of my own special branch of physics." Note: Tipler since has actually converted to Christianity, hence his latest book, Physics of Christianity
ir
.

Alexander Polyakov (Soviet mathematician)
: "We know that nature is described by the best of all possible mathematics because God created it."

Ed Harrison (cosmologist): "Here is the cosmological proof of the existence of God the design argument of Paley updated and refurbished. The fine tuning of the universe provides prima facie evidence of deistic design. Take your choice: blind chance that requires multitudes of universes or design that requires only one.... Many scientists, when they admit their views, incline toward the teleological or design argument."

Edward Milne (British cosmologist): "As to the cause of the Universe, in context of expansion, that is left for the reader to insert, but our picture is incomplete without Him [God]."

Barry Parker (cosmologist): "Who created these laws? There is no question but that a God will always be needed."

Drs. Zehavi, and Dekel (cosmologists): "This type of universe, however, seems to require a degree of fine tuning of the initial conditions that is in apparent conflict with 'common wisdom'."

Arthur L. Schawlow (Professor of Physics at Stanford University, 1981 Nobel Prize in physics): "It seems to me that when confronted with the marvels of life and the universe, one must ask why and not just how. The only possible answers are religious. . . . I find a need for God in the universe and in my own life."

Henry "Fritz" Schaefer (Graham Perdue Professor of Chemistry and director of the Center for Computational Quantum Chemistry at the University of Georgia): "The significance and joy in my science comes in those occasional moments of discovering something new and saying to myself, 'So that's how God did it.' My goal is to understand a little corner of God's plan."

Wernher von Braun (Pioneer rocket engineer) "I find it as difficult to understand a scientist who does not acknowledge the presence of a superior rationality behind the existence of the universe as it is to comprehend a theologian who would deny the advances of science."

Carl Woese (microbiologist from the University of Illinois) "Life in Universe - rare or unique? I walk both sides of that street. One day I can say that given the 100 billion stars in our galaxy and the 100 billion or more galaxies, there have to be some planets that formed and evolved in ways very, very like the Earth has, and so would contain microbial life at least. There are other days when I say that the anthropic principal, which makes this universe a special one out of an uncountably large number of universes, may not apply only to that aspect of nature we define in the realm of physics, but may extend to chemistry and biology. In that case life on Earth could be entirely unique."

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Antony Flew (Professor of Philosophy, former atheist, author, and debater) "It now seems to me that the findings of more than fifty years of DNA research have provided materials for a new and enormously powerful argument to design."

Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics): "From the perspective of the latest physical theories, Christianity is not a mere religion, but an experimentally testable science."


So what "testable" evidence can you provide to refute creationism?

so you want someone to refute an irrelevant gish

Creationism as being discussed here refers to the
sudden poofing into existence of the earth and life
on int in essentially its present form.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
No... In essence what I said is that there will be no test no matter what position one has. So we are all relegated to viewpoints. My "viewpoint" is simply to agree with one set of scientists while others will agree with another set.

That is why it is still in debate.
And it is also why it isn't a science, and why "creationism" is bogus.

Do you accept that theism is pure opinion/philosophy, and creationism is not a legitimate science?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
EXACTLY! Intelligent design and purpose driven. That's what all those scientists I quoted said.

Thank you!


You say "exactly" and then proceed to spout nonsensical drivel that has nothing to do with what I said.


Evolution isn't a random process because natural selection isn't random.
Variation is random. Selection isn't.

If I build a coin sorting machine, I can pour in random coins (1 cent, 2 cent, 5 cent, 10 cent, 20 cent, 50 cent, 1euro, 2 euro), but the output won't be random. It will be sorted.

Because there is a mechanism in the process that sorts the random input into-non-random output.

Biology has random input: variation / mutation.
Life undergoes a "fitness test" (can you survive and reproduce?), so there is a selection process (analogous to the sorting process).

The output, are individuals that ARE fit for survival and reproduction. And those who are the most fit to do so, will usually outnumber the others.

So, there is a mechanism, known as "selection", that filters the random input into non-random output.


No "intelligence" or "purpose" required.




ps: when are you going to share your test? Or acknowledge that you lied about it?
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
No... In essence what I said is that there will be no test no matter what position one has. So we are all relegated to viewpoints. My "viewpoint" is simply to agree with one set of scientists while others will agree with another set.

That is why it is still in debate.

What debate? How many scientists you know who reject common descent?

Ciao

- viole
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
So, basically, an evolutionist would say that all that we have is by random chance. A Theist-Evolutionist would say, it has nothing to do with randomness but rather intelligently designed and purpose-driven to bring what we see today.

Let me understand. God designed the gazelle to escape the lion, and the lion so that it can still eat some gazelles?

Like those people who play chess against themselves?

Ciao

- viole
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
so you want someone to refute an irrelevant gish

.
Actually, no. I don't think any side can be refuted... but irrelevant gish?

Fred Hoyle (British astrophysicist): George Ellis (British astrophysicist): Paul Davies (British astrophysicist): Alan Sandage (winner of the Crawford prize in astronomy): John O'Keefe (astronomer at NASA): George Greenstein (astronomer): Arthur Eddington (astrophysicist): Arno Penzias (Nobel prize in physics): Roger Penrose (mathematician and author): Tony Rothman (physicist): Vera Kistiakowsky (MIT physicist):Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics): Alexander Polyakov (Soviet mathematician): Ed Harrison (cosmologist): Edward Milne (British cosmologist): Barry Parker (cosmologist):Drs. Zehavi, and Dekel (cosmologists): Arthur L. Schawlow (Professor of Physics at Stanford University, 1981 Nobel Prize in physics): Henry "Fritz" Schaefer (Graham Perdue Professor of Chemistry and director of the Center for Computational Quantum Chemistry at the University of Georgia): Wernher von Braun (Pioneer rocket engineer) Carl Woese (microbiologist from the University of Illinois)

So, your position is that these people present "irrelevant gish"? What are you qualifications to debate these people? I think you make yourself look quite irrelevant with that statement.

Creationism as being discussed here refers to the
sudden poofing into existence of the earth and life
on int in essentially its present form.
Correct.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The opposite of 'random' isn't 'purpose driven'.

but can be. Certainly the astrophysicists, cosmologists, biologists et al that I quoted believe it is. It is simply a position that "some" people ascribe to.
 
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