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Place for Creationists to post their "reasonable tests" for their position

tas8831

Well-Known Member
It has been claimed by a creationist that there are "reasonable tests" for his creationist beliefs. In fact, this creationist claimed, when initially asked to present those tests, that his are "Far more reasonable tests than what you have" for, I suppose, the other person's non-creationist beliefs.

This was followed by several requests for the creationist to present those far more reasonable tests, which went un-answered. The creationist finally explained that he did not want to derail the other thread, so the fellow asking him about his 'reasonable tests' should "open another thread."

So, here it is.

Please show us your tests for your position, and demonstrate that they are "far more reasonable" than those of 'tests' to the contrary.

Thanks!
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
It has been claimed by a creationist that there are "reasonable tests" for his creationist beliefs. In fact, this creationist claimed, when initially asked to present those tests, that his are "Far more reasonable tests than what you have" for, I suppose, the other person's non-creationist beliefs.

This was followed by several requests for the creationist to present those far more reasonable tests, which went un-answered. The creationist finally explained that he did not want to derail the other thread, so the fellow asking him about his 'reasonable tests' should "open another thread."

So, here it is.

Please show us your tests for your position, and demonstrate that they are "far more reasonable" than those of 'tests' to the contrary.

Thanks!
Just saw this... its been a busy week... I will have to get back to it because of time constraints.
 

MikeDwight

Well-Known Member
Well you didn't like it, so I deleted it. Simple. Other boards didn't like me and I get kicked. I'm not sure how to fix it, do you happen to know? I simply mean in Acts 17:23 and on, the first Mission of the very same Apostle, first followers of 12 from Jesus, (big deal), arriving in Macedon and Greece, they came upon the concept of God that Religious people of Athens already had made, and they said Deus Vult, no oops they said, let me tell you about Creation and this that you worship. That's what happened in the Partheonian Ampitheatrical Apostolic thingamabob.

Korea had a series of beliefs and gods nd they conferred with Koreans about the oldest original god and Skyfather , of whom use to be exclusive worship, named hananim, or haneulim. Catholics use a different word for God even in Korean, not Deus, a Korean catholic word or something. But I don't know, Catholics in 1890's, might already be liberal enough for some non-Latin services. How come we al believe in the Korean Bear race if creationism isn't real?
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
It has been claimed by a creationist that there are "reasonable tests" for his creationist beliefs. In fact, this creationist claimed, when initially asked to present those tests, that his are "Far more reasonable tests than what you have" for, I suppose, the other person's non-creationist beliefs.

This was followed by several requests for the creationist to present those far more reasonable tests, which went un-answered. The creationist finally explained that he did not want to derail the other thread, so the fellow asking him about his 'reasonable tests' should "open another thread."

So, here it is.

Please show us your tests for your position, and demonstrate that they are "far more reasonable" than those of 'tests' to the contrary.

Thanks!
I think your "rewording" is wrong. It's more like a twisting of statements to create a "fake news" perspective.

So let me first lay down a foundation:

As everybody know, how the earth began is a matter of perspective. Scientist look at the same thing but coming up with different viewpoints.

Below you will find 7 theories of the origin of life which is part of the perspective of creation.

7 Theories on the Origin of Life

At this point there really isn't a "test" (as you suggested) to find out how it all began since the "test" would have to recreate and procreate life and, thus, you created a false narrative. Fake news.

So, my point, which was stated in another thread or the same one, is simply point why I believe in Creationism by quoting people of renown and are expert in their fields. Will there be counter point? Of course! If there are 7 theories, every scientist will try to defend there point. Do they prove Creationism wrong? Obviously not, for if they did there would be only 1 theory.

Fred Hoyle (British astrophysicist): "A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question."

George Ellis (British astrophysicist): "Amazing fine tuning occurs in the laws that make this [complexity] possible. Realization of the complexity of what is accomplished makes it very difficult not to use the word 'miraculous' without taking a stand as to the ontological status of the word."

Paul Davies (British astrophysicist): "There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all....It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature�s numbers to make the Universe....The impression of design is overwhelming".

Paul Davies: "The laws [of physics] ... seem to be the product of exceedingly ingenious design... The universe must have a purpose".

Alan Sandage (winner of the Crawford prize in astronomy): "I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing."

John O'Keefe (astronomer at NASA): "We are, by astronomical standards, a pampered, cosseted, cherished group of creatures.. .. If the Universe had not been made with the most exacting precision we could never have come into existence. It is my view that these circumstances indicate the universe was created for man to live in."

George Greenstein (astronomer): "As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?"

Arthur Eddington (astrophysicist): "The idea of a universal mind or Logos would be, I think, a fairly plausible inference from the present state of scientific theory."

Arno Penzias (Nobel prize in physics): "Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe which was created out of nothing, one with the very delicate balance needed to provide exactly the conditions required to permit life, and one which has an underlying (one might say 'supernatural') plan."

Roger Penrose (mathematician and author): "I would say the universe has a purpose. It's not there just somehow by chance."

Tony Rothman (physicist): "When confronted with the order and beauty of the universe and the strange coincidences of nature, it's very tempting to take the leap of faith from science into religion. I am sure many physicists want to. I only wish they would admit it."

Vera Kistiakowsky (MIT physicist): "The exquisite order displayed by our scientific understanding of the physical world calls for the divine."

Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."

Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics): "When I began my career as a cosmologist some twenty years ago, I was a convinced atheist. I never in my wildest dreams imagined that one day I would be writing a book purporting to show that the central claims of Judeo-Christian theology are in fact true, that these claims are straightforward deductions of the laws of physics as we now understand them. I have been forced into these conclusions by the inexorable logic of my own special branch of physics." Note: Tipler since has actually converted to Christianity, hence his latest book, Physics of Christianity
ir
.

Alexander Polyakov (Soviet mathematician)
: "We know that nature is described by the best of all possible mathematics because God created it."

Ed Harrison (cosmologist): "Here is the cosmological proof of the existence of God the design argument of Paley updated and refurbished. The fine tuning of the universe provides prima facie evidence of deistic design. Take your choice: blind chance that requires multitudes of universes or design that requires only one.... Many scientists, when they admit their views, incline toward the teleological or design argument."

Edward Milne (British cosmologist): "As to the cause of the Universe, in context of expansion, that is left for the reader to insert, but our picture is incomplete without Him [God]."

Barry Parker (cosmologist): "Who created these laws? There is no question but that a God will always be needed."

Drs. Zehavi, and Dekel (cosmologists): "This type of universe, however, seems to require a degree of fine tuning of the initial conditions that is in apparent conflict with 'common wisdom'."

Arthur L. Schawlow (Professor of Physics at Stanford University, 1981 Nobel Prize in physics): "It seems to me that when confronted with the marvels of life and the universe, one must ask why and not just how. The only possible answers are religious. . . . I find a need for God in the universe and in my own life."

Henry "Fritz" Schaefer (Graham Perdue Professor of Chemistry and director of the Center for Computational Quantum Chemistry at the University of Georgia): "The significance and joy in my science comes in those occasional moments of discovering something new and saying to myself, 'So that's how God did it.' My goal is to understand a little corner of God's plan."

Wernher von Braun (Pioneer rocket engineer) "I find it as difficult to understand a scientist who does not acknowledge the presence of a superior rationality behind the existence of the universe as it is to comprehend a theologian who would deny the advances of science."

Carl Woese (microbiologist from the University of Illinois) "Life in Universe - rare or unique? I walk both sides of that street. One day I can say that given the 100 billion stars in our galaxy and the 100 billion or more galaxies, there have to be some planets that formed and evolved in ways very, very like the Earth has, and so would contain microbial life at least. There are other days when I say that the anthropic principal, which makes this universe a special one out of an uncountably large number of universes, may not apply only to that aspect of nature we define in the realm of physics, but may extend to chemistry and biology. In that case life on Earth could be entirely unique."

ir
Antony Flew (Professor of Philosophy, former atheist, author, and debater) "It now seems to me that the findings of more than fifty years of DNA research have provided materials for a new and enormously powerful argument to design."

Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics): "From the perspective of the latest physical theories, Christianity is not a mere religion, but an experimentally testable science."


So what "testable" evidence can you provide to refute creationism?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
So, basically, an evolutionist would say that all that we have is by random chance. A Theist-Evolutionist would say, it has nothing to do with randomness but rather intelligently designed and purpose-driven to bring what we see today.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I think your "rewording" is wrong. It's more like a twisting of statements to create a "fake news" perspective.

So let me first lay down a foundation:

As everybody know, how the earth began is a matter of perspective. Scientist look at the same thing but coming up with different viewpoints.

Below you will find 7 theories of the origin of life which is part of the perspective of creation.

7 Theories on the Origin of Life

At this point there really isn't a "test" (as you suggested) to find out how it all began since the "test" would have to recreate and procreate life and, thus, you created a false narrative. Fake news.

So, my point, which was stated in another thread or the same one, is simply point why I believe in Creationism by quoting people of renown and are expert in their fields. Will there be counter point? Of course! If there are 7 theories, every scientist will try to defend there point. Do they prove Creationism wrong? Obviously not, for if they did there would be only 1 theory.

Fred Hoyle (British astrophysicist): "A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question."

George Ellis (British astrophysicist): "Amazing fine tuning occurs in the laws that make this [complexity] possible. Realization of the complexity of what is accomplished makes it very difficult not to use the word 'miraculous' without taking a stand as to the ontological status of the word."

Paul Davies (British astrophysicist): "There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all....It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature�s numbers to make the Universe....The impression of design is overwhelming".

Paul Davies: "The laws [of physics] ... seem to be the product of exceedingly ingenious design... The universe must have a purpose".

Alan Sandage (winner of the Crawford prize in astronomy): "I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing."

John O'Keefe (astronomer at NASA): "We are, by astronomical standards, a pampered, cosseted, cherished group of creatures.. .. If the Universe had not been made with the most exacting precision we could never have come into existence. It is my view that these circumstances indicate the universe was created for man to live in."

George Greenstein (astronomer): "As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?"

Arthur Eddington (astrophysicist): "The idea of a universal mind or Logos would be, I think, a fairly plausible inference from the present state of scientific theory."

Arno Penzias (Nobel prize in physics): "Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe which was created out of nothing, one with the very delicate balance needed to provide exactly the conditions required to permit life, and one which has an underlying (one might say 'supernatural') plan."

Roger Penrose (mathematician and author): "I would say the universe has a purpose. It's not there just somehow by chance."

Tony Rothman (physicist): "When confronted with the order and beauty of the universe and the strange coincidences of nature, it's very tempting to take the leap of faith from science into religion. I am sure many physicists want to. I only wish they would admit it."

Vera Kistiakowsky (MIT physicist): "The exquisite order displayed by our scientific understanding of the physical world calls for the divine."

Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."

Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics): "When I began my career as a cosmologist some twenty years ago, I was a convinced atheist. I never in my wildest dreams imagined that one day I would be writing a book purporting to show that the central claims of Judeo-Christian theology are in fact true, that these claims are straightforward deductions of the laws of physics as we now understand them. I have been forced into these conclusions by the inexorable logic of my own special branch of physics." Note: Tipler since has actually converted to Christianity, hence his latest book, Physics of Christianity
ir
.

Alexander Polyakov (Soviet mathematician)
: "We know that nature is described by the best of all possible mathematics because God created it."

Ed Harrison (cosmologist): "Here is the cosmological proof of the existence of God the design argument of Paley updated and refurbished. The fine tuning of the universe provides prima facie evidence of deistic design. Take your choice: blind chance that requires multitudes of universes or design that requires only one.... Many scientists, when they admit their views, incline toward the teleological or design argument."

Edward Milne (British cosmologist): "As to the cause of the Universe, in context of expansion, that is left for the reader to insert, but our picture is incomplete without Him [God]."

Barry Parker (cosmologist): "Who created these laws? There is no question but that a God will always be needed."

Drs. Zehavi, and Dekel (cosmologists): "This type of universe, however, seems to require a degree of fine tuning of the initial conditions that is in apparent conflict with 'common wisdom'."

Arthur L. Schawlow (Professor of Physics at Stanford University, 1981 Nobel Prize in physics): "It seems to me that when confronted with the marvels of life and the universe, one must ask why and not just how. The only possible answers are religious. . . . I find a need for God in the universe and in my own life."

Henry "Fritz" Schaefer (Graham Perdue Professor of Chemistry and director of the Center for Computational Quantum Chemistry at the University of Georgia): "The significance and joy in my science comes in those occasional moments of discovering something new and saying to myself, 'So that's how God did it.' My goal is to understand a little corner of God's plan."

Wernher von Braun (Pioneer rocket engineer) "I find it as difficult to understand a scientist who does not acknowledge the presence of a superior rationality behind the existence of the universe as it is to comprehend a theologian who would deny the advances of science."

Carl Woese (microbiologist from the University of Illinois) "Life in Universe - rare or unique? I walk both sides of that street. One day I can say that given the 100 billion stars in our galaxy and the 100 billion or more galaxies, there have to be some planets that formed and evolved in ways very, very like the Earth has, and so would contain microbial life at least. There are other days when I say that the anthropic principal, which makes this universe a special one out of an uncountably large number of universes, may not apply only to that aspect of nature we define in the realm of physics, but may extend to chemistry and biology. In that case life on Earth could be entirely unique."

ir
Antony Flew (Professor of Philosophy, former atheist, author, and debater) "It now seems to me that the findings of more than fifty years of DNA research have provided materials for a new and enormously powerful argument to design."

Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics): "From the perspective of the latest physical theories, Christianity is not a mere religion, but an experimentally testable science."


Quotemining, argument from ignorance, shifting the burden of proof and argument from authority.
I'm pretty sure I also spotted a false equivalence by misusing the word "theory".

Did I miss anything?

So what "testable" evidence can you provide to refute creationism?

The same evidence that you can provide to refute the idea that undetectable pink graviton pixies regulate gravitational forces.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
False. Evolution isn't random

And you haven't presented a test for creationism, just a list of opinions. Unless something is actually testable, it isn't science.

Apparently you didn't read my post in detail.
 

MikeDwight

Well-Known Member
I figured that was what this whole thread was about. See, the Superior race of the modern super men, who have evolved into a super race, need to test out Charles' Darwin's theory from 1900s, obviously that the Survival of the Fittest leaves to dominance of the Super Race of the Christianity rejectors and Jewish rejectors, the science men. The men in a struggle for the new strength and fitness of the individual, to the detriment of the handicap, homosexual, Jew, and Christian. Nazi.Hey you know what science experiments you two run, sounding cool. Just like everybody else.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
So, basically, an evolutionist would say that all that we have is by random chance.

Nope.

A Theist-Evolutionist would say, it has nothing to do with randomness but rather intelligently designed and purpose-driven to bring what we see today.

Which would be a claim with a burden of proof. So the claim is dissmissed at face value unless one can live upto the burden of proof.




But, you kind of missed the point of the thread.
It's not about evolution.

It's about what reasonable test YOU can provide to test (and confirm) YOUR beliefs.





Remember?

You asked me to create a thread just for that. I didn't feel like it because I considered it a waste of time. @tas8831 decided to call you out on your challenge and he went ahead and created the thread.


So the ball is in your camp now. Here's your chance at proving me wrong, that it was not a waste of time to create said thread.

Go for it.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Apparently you didn't read my post in detail.


I did. Didn't see a test in there.


It's the usual stuff you always post. In fact, I'm pretty sure I saw you copy past that list of quotes in that other thread as well - you know... the thread where you asked to create this one, where you would then go on to detail your "reasonable test" for your creationistic beliefs.


Any time you're up for it......
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I figured that was what this whole thread was about. See, the Superior race of the modern super men, who have evolved into a super race, need to test out Charles' Darwin's theory from 1900s, obviously that the Survival of the Fittest leaves to dominance of the Super Race of the Christianity rejectors and Jewish rejectors, the science men. The men in a struggle for the new strength and fitness of the individual, to the detriment of the handicap, homosexual, Jew, and Christian. Nazi.Hey you know what science experiments you two run, sounding cool. Just like everybody else.

What the hell are you blabbering about....


ps: are you aware that many biologists, actually I even think it's the majority, are actually theists?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I did. You essentially said that there was no test, but you accepted the opinions of a large number of contextless quotes.

That's fine for you, but the question is whether or not creationism is valid science. If it cannot be tested, then it is not valid science.

No... In essence what I said is that there will be no test no matter what position one has. So we are all relegated to viewpoints. My "viewpoint" is simply to agree with one set of scientists while others will agree with another set.

That is why it is still in debate.
 
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