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The Slow Death Of Christianity In The United States

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But he saw the killing of the Messiah and the destruction of the temple and the Jewish people. What say our "scholars" to this? How do they
explain it away?
Well, any messiah he may have mentioned wasn't Jesus, for a start. Jesus has none of the requisites of a Tanakh messiah, starting with anointing either as ruler or as military leader. And didn't I mention earlier the number of times the Temple had been damaged, desecrated or destroyed?

Ghostly supernatural influences of unseen powers force me to foretell that someone will fly a plane into a US building at some unspecified time in the future. I'll sharpen up the wording, or my biographer will, having read the notes I've left,after it happens.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"I say the author was on that boat and that's why you get that detail."
So the author may have been a sailor, or the son of a sailor, or the neighbor of a sailor, or a guy who hung around dockside bars.
That guy was one of the most famous historians of the period - Luke.
Which non-Christians have gone on record with that view? I ask because I don't know of any and I don't think, even in that day and age, he was an historian's bootlace. He copied Mark, altering, adding and subtracting to his personal theological taste. He has no more objectivity than next Sunday's sermon.
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
Certainly, but as my profile below shows - there are other things that ought
to scare you to death too.
The thing people resent the most with religion is the expectation it requires
of them.

Not really, if we look at the horrendous behavior of the Bible god. He is a "do as I say, not as I do" deity.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Not really, if we look at the horrendous behavior of the Bible god. He is a "do as I say, not as I do" deity.

Absolutely. We are given a real-life proxy for this with the Jewish people.
Their exile and suffering for nearly 2,000 years is explained in the bible
as being because "they did not know the time of their visitation."
(re the Messiah and the New Covenant given to the Gentiles.)
That's history. Call it coincidence if you like. Call God a monster if you
like. Doesn't change anything.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
So the author may have been a sailor, or the son of a sailor, or the neighbor of a sailor, or a guy who hung around dockside bars.
Which non-Christians have gone on record with that view? I ask because I don't know of any and I don't think, even in that day and age, he was an historian's bootlace. He copied Mark, altering, adding and subtracting to his personal theological taste. He has no more objectivity than next Sunday's sermon.

No, he was a prisoner, like Paul and others.
The reason why Luke is not considered an historian to many is because
he relates religious things. But objectively, just the account of the rise of
the Christian church is well written and informative.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I like your precision, or your choice of opinion.
Read that famous ship wreck account in Acts - it's long been of interest
to, well, yes, scholars - it's a rare account of first century maritime
practices. And you think some guy made it up? Occam's Razor here -
I say the author was on that boat and that's why you get that detail.
That guy was one of the most famous historians of the period - Luke.

Good grief. The Babylonians had sailboats a thousand years before Adam and Eve.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
No, he was a prisoner, like Paul and others.
The reason why Luke is not considered an historian to many is because
he relates religious things. But objectively, just the account of the rise of
the Christian church is well written and informative.

Luke lived in Syria that's why his geography of Palestine is so lousy.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Good grief. The Babylonians had sailboats a thousand years before Adam and Eve.

And they were heading for Rome? It was just Etruscan tribes then, wasn't it?
I think you are obsessed with this Babylon thing - except when it comes to the
books written during this time.
:)
 

sooda

Veteran Member
And they were heading for Rome? It was just Etruscan tribes then, wasn't it?
I think you are obsessed with this Babylon thing - except when it comes to the
books written during this time.
:)


Why would they go to Rome which is inland BTW.. and what does any of this have to do with Etruscans?

Are you just throwing spaghetti at the wall?

The Catholic Canon, which was the only Canon until the Reformation, was solidified at councils dating back to the 4th century, meaning that Maccabees was in the Christian Canon for over 1,000 years before the Protestant Reformation.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No, he was a prisoner, like Paul and others.
The reason why Luke is not considered an historian to many is because
he relates religious things. But objectively, just the account of the rise of
the Christian church is well written and informative.
If there was a relevant person who died in prison with Paul in the late 50s or so, then he's not the author of Luke, which not an original bio of Jesus but a version around 85 of Mark, around 75, in particular and some of Matthew, also mid 80s. If the view is correct that the author of Luke is also the author of Acts, then note that Acts wasn't written till around 100 CE.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The church has always flourished "on the edges." In the first century, that was the "fringe" of the Roman Empire. In the centuries following, it was Asia Minor. In the Middle Ages, it was Europe. In the Enlightenment, it was the New World. In the 17th and 18th centuries, it was South America. Today, it's Africa. Xy always flourishes away from the power centers. Today, the USA is the power center. No surprise that its dying here -- and has been dead in Europe for ages.

I disagree that it's due to advancing education and science. Those things are great, but they don't stand in direct opposition to spiritual formation. In fact, the church is making the greatest changes in areas where education and science dominate. People are hungry for spiritual meaning that is relevant. What they're not hungry for is a return to rigid dogma.

As a member of the clergy, I've been studying this phenomenon for years. In our pluralistic society, no one has a dominant spiritual hand anymore. The field must be shared. We must develop tolerance, inclusion, and a deeper identity than denominational "brand."
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Not Just here in the USA, but religious ' waters ' (people) are drying up spiritually .
- Revelation 16:12; Revelation 17:1; Revelation 17:15; Isaiah 57:20
What is drying up is ' Christendom' ( many so-called Christian but mostly 'in name only' ) - Matthew 7:21-23.
So, what is holy in the eyes of nominal Christians is often what is Not found in Scripture - Matthew 15:9
What is happening is one day soon the political will surprisingly turn on the religious world.
Why it's happening is because Christendom today corresponds to un-faithful Jerusalem in the year 70.
This is shallow, naïve, and theologically untenable.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
With a bad economy, the wealth the churches amass can look like easy taking to the political realm.
After all, Jesus instructed to teach for free, and they want $$$$$ - Matthew 10:8 B.
Yet, Jesus also says that the worker deserves his wages. There has to be an exchange, or it's not healthy.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
There was No job securing for the 1st-century Christians because there were No paid clergy - Matthew 10:8 B
The only time Jesus 'passed the plate', so to speak, was when He fed people with bread and fish.
ALL the spiritually older men supported themselves with secular jobs. Acts of the Apostles 18:3; 1 Thess. 2:9

Can't set a date as per Matthew 24:36, but we do know when the ' season ' is ripe - 2 Timothy 3:13; 1-5.
We are at the ' final stage ' globally of Matthew 24:14 about God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44 being at hand.
This means we are nearing the ' final signal ' of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 when the powers that be will be saying," Peace and Security ..." as the precursor as to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9.
Not true. When Jesus sent out the 70, they were paid in room and board -- possibly also in currency.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
From what I have seen in the modern-day monstrosity called " Christendom " teeming with young folks is they have a political agenda, whereas Jesus and his followers were only neutral in world affairs, Not even getting involved in the issues of the day between the Jews verses the Romans.
Not so! Mark is a thinly-veiled political commentary.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Perhaps, but whether people are going to the little church in the vale or watching Jesus Needs Your Money on TV, the numbers are dropping.



And you know this to be a fact because ______________________________________________________ .


.
HA! "Jesus Needs Your Money!" That's great!
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The only reason most Christians are leaving the churches,
Because for those Christians, like myself, that does not belong to any church.
Because in those churches people are being taught by man's teachings and not the teachings of Christ Jesus.

Jesus Christ condemned the teachings of man's in Matthew 15:7-9.
7 You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"

So why would I want to belong to a church knowing that Jesus Christ condemned man's teachings.
And that Pastor,Preacher, if I'm not wrong is a man.
Therefore man's teachings.

9--"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"
Jesus was also fully human -- a man. Your argument is, once again naïve and shallow, and theologically untenable.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
There is absolutely No scriptural reason why a pastor needs to make the money - period -.
This is because I find in Scripture the spiritually older men are voluntary and un-paid.
Jesus instructed to teach for free ( No salary ) - Matthew 10:8 B.
Thus, a paid clergy is Not a Bible teaching but a tradition of men - Matthew 15:9
So, we need to go the the 'church' of God's choice where there are No paid pastors.
First of all, once again, your "biblical reason" is flawed. Second, that may have worked in the first century. Maybe. But not today. Theology is a specialized discipline, not just made-up hooey. Do you want someone grounded in theology, pastoral care, counseling, and spiritual formation leading you, or somebody who has no real clue about how to offer comfort, how to address social justice issues, and how to interpret the scriptures in a theologically honest fashion? Those people are paid because they're professionals. They give their lives to service. When you're laying on the side of the road following a bad accident, and you want a minister, what do you do when your pastor (who's not paid to be there) says, "Sorry! I'm too busy rebuilding a transmission to come out right now?"
 
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