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The Slow Death Of Christianity In The United States

sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
PruePhillip said:
There is no "problem"
Jacob was doing what Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, David, Ezekiel, Daniel, Malachi and
many others did - they wrote of the Messiah. In fact, with time this vision became
more and more detailed. I do love David's account of the suffering Messiah - with
his hands and feet pierced, suffering on the cross, dying for the sins of a nation
which rejected him.
Jacob's blessing to Judah is in Genesis 49:10
King James Bible
The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until
Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

27 words more or less summed up the entire Old Testament, and the New one at
that. Shiloh is just a translation, it means Messiah, Redeemer, He who is to come.
A Bronze Age term, most likely taken from the cultic center of Shiloh - pre Jerusalem
times.
Click to expand...

Some Muslims think Shiloh is Muhammed.
 
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PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
sooda said:
Some Muslims think Shiloh is Muhammed.
Click to expand...

And some think Shilo is a tourist resort.
It doesn't matter what people think.
The ancient state of Israel would last 'UNTIL'
Shiloh came. It didn't refer to Arabian killers
who turned up 600 or 700 years later.
 
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PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
blü 2 said:
But there'll be a prophetic prediction for the date of the return after the event, and it'll be no more credible than anything else to do with prophecy.
As I said before, political slogans aren't prophecy. And personally, I find serious fault with the politics of both sides in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but the greater fault lies with the greater power, Israel.
Click to expand...

Don't understand what you mean here. Saying Israel would exist only until the Messiah
or that the temple and Jerusalem would be destroyed when the Messiah is "cut off"
aren't "political slogans" are they?
If someone says the Jews of Europe will abandon their host nations and return to
take back Palestine "with the sword" one day - is that political? Did it happen? Did
anyone post-date the biblical predictions?
 
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PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
sooda said:
Every other time Shiloh is mentioned in scripture its a place name.
Click to expand...

Certainly, look at the context.
"Until Shiloh comes" there would be a state of Israel,
a law and Judean kings.
No-one simply shifted the town of Shiloh elsewhere.
Jesus is described as the lion, the lamb, the savor,
the redeemer, Michael, the branch, Shiloh, prince,
king, Emmanuel, Christ, Lord, Logos, Rabbi, Son
of David, Son of man etc etc etc..
 
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PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
sooda said:
The times of the Gentiles was the 42 months from 66-70AD and the Roman army during its destruction of Jerusalem.
Click to expand...

My take on that is that when Jesus spoke of the destruction of Jerusalem
He said it would be trampled down of the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles
is fulfilled.
Would that have been the mid-sixties? Recall the cultural and moral revolution
of that time? That was when Jerusalem was finally back in Jewish hands.
Don't know, can't tell. But it's interesting to speculate.

Don't treat the bible, particularly the NT, as a political commentary - frankly
it couldn't care less about transient worldly politics. Only the skeptics and
scholars think these things are important.
 
sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
PruePhillip said:
My take on that is that when Jesus spoke of the destruction of Jerusalem
He said it would be trampled down of the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles
is fulfilled.
Would that have been the mid-sixties? Recall the cultural and moral revolution
of that time? That was when Jerusalem was finally back in Jewish hands.
Don't know, can't tell. But it's interesting to speculate.

Don't treat the bible, particularly the NT, as a political commentary - frankly
it couldn't care less about transient worldly politics. Only the skeptics and
scholars think these things are important.
Click to expand...

Jesus was correct..... Temple Judaism and Jewish law was OVER in 70 AD.
 
P

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
blü 2 said:
In a pig's eye. That's just an excuse for the absence of substance in the mumbo-jumbo.
Click to expand...

The bible states that the Jews will lose their land a second time, but will return........
when?
It doesn't say 1897 or 1948 --- if such dates even existed in some Gregorian
calendar somewhere they still wouldn't be mentioned. The Jews for 2,000 years
held to a faith that one day they will return to Jerusalem. There's a lot of nuance,
subtlety and sensitivity involved here - and many/most Jews couldn't get it.

It wasn't "mumbo jumbo" despite the howls of laughter emanating from many
an august 19th Century institution in Europe or America.

That's how the bible is - it doesn't give some Roman or Catholic date for such
and such an event, it just says "one day."
Jesus didn't say that Gallus would lay siege to Jerusalem in AD 67 and that
the Christians should flee Jerusalem at the very moment of Jewish victory over
him. No, he just said for them to watch the times. That's learning wisdom - in
the thinking of the bible. And many lives were saved just in remembering what
Jesus said.
 
P

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
sooda said:
Jesus was correct..... Temple Judaism and Jewish law was OVER in 70 AD.
Click to expand...

Like all things, it's not that simple.
There were two other wars after AD 70. I recall reading that Hadrian
promised to rebuild the temple. It was the third war which ended it
for Israel - Bar Kochbar I think it was called, about 135 AD.
 
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PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
blü 2 said:
Have you tried applying the rules of prophecy to ...Mitchell's Gone with the Wind? I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't be just as accurate under your system.
Click to expand...

Never read the book, seen the film (my family were caught up in all that stuff)
A parallel I suppose would be someone telling English settlers they were going
to the New World. They would build a prosperous rural nation with plenty of free
labor, but the enemy would come and overpower them. But then, the south
would rise again - and then, 2,000 years later a brand new Antebellum South,
complete with slaves, rises again. MAYBE you could say that's prophecy, but
then, maybe not.
 
sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
PruePhillip said:
Like all things, it's not that simple.
There were two other wars after AD 70. I recall reading that Hadrian
promised to rebuild the temple. It was the third war which ended it
for Israel - Bar Kochbar I think it was called, about 135 AD.
Click to expand...

Emperor Julian and the dream of a third temple - Opinion ...
https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Emperor-Julian-and-the-dream-of-a-third-temple-516999
Emperor Julian and the dream of a third temple. The status of the Jews, especially in the Land of Israel, was not immediately affected by the Christianization of the Roman Empire, although the emperor forbade Patriarch Hillel II announcing the date of Passover to Diaspora communities. This led to the Jewish leader adopting a fixed calendar.
 
blü 2

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
PruePhillip said:
Don't understand what you mean here. Saying Israel would exist only until the Messiah
or that the temple and Jerusalem would be destroyed when the Messiah is "cut off"
aren't "political slogans" are they?
Click to expand...
Saying Jesus is the messiah is a Christian invention. He's not a messiah of the Tanakh.
PruePhillip said:
If someone says the Jews of Europe will abandon their host nations and return totake back Palestine "with the sword" one day - is that political? Did it happen? Did anyone post-date the biblical predictions?
Click to expand...
That's the power of slogans ─ the Zionist claim to be entitled to lands belonging to others, which was attended by political success.
PruePhillip said:
The bible states that the Jews will lose their land a second time, but will return........when? It doesn't say 1897 or 1948 --- if such dates even existed in some Gregorian calendar somewhere they still wouldn't be mentioned. The Jews for 2,000 years held to a faith that one day they will return to Jerusalem. There's a lot of nuance,
subtlety and sensitivity involved here - and many/most Jews couldn't get it.
Click to expand...
It wasn't a miracle, it was using biblical texts as slogans and as entitlements. No magic to be seen anywhere.
PruePhillip said:
Jesus didn't say that Gallus would lay siege to Jerusalem in AD 67 and that the Christians should flee Jerusalem at the very moment of Jewish victory over him. No, he just said for them to watch the times. That's learning wisdom - in the thinking of the bible. And many lives were saved just in remembering what Jesus said.
Click to expand...
The author of Mark at 13:1-2 has his Jesus 'prophesy' the sack of Jerusalem (which Luke 21:5-7 rewrites to specify the Temple). It's one of the elements of Mark we can use to date it after 70 CE.
PruePhillip said:
Never read the book
Click to expand...
Do you regard financial forecasts based on hard data as prophecies?
 
P

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
blü 2 said:
The author of Mark at 13:1-2 has his Jesus 'prophesy' the sack of Jerusalem (which Luke 21:5-7 rewrites to specify the Temple). It's one of the elements of Mark we can use to date it after 70 CE.
Click to expand...

This is the mentality. "Scholars" date text based upon real events which the bible claim as prophecy
before the event.
Thus Jesus gives a prophecy concerning Jerusalem. Never mind that Daniel and others made the
same prophecy (much older texts lay bare the intellectual deceit in this matter.) So our scribes use
that prophecy to date Jesus' saying.
But Jesus said Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, UNTIL the time of the Gentiles
be fulfilled (our own age.) Meaning the Jews will again inhabit Jerusalem. Early Christians took
Jesus' advice and fled.

BTW
What is this "time of the Gentiles be fulfilled"?
I think it means when the Gentiles treat the Gospel in the same way the Jews did.
That happened in the 20th Century, and Jerusalem was in Jewish hands again in the
1960's.
 
sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
PruePhillip said:
This is the mentality. "Scholars" date text based upon real events which the bible claim as prophecy
before the event.
Thus Jesus gives a prophecy concerning Jerusalem. Never mind that Daniel and others made the
same prophecy (much older texts lay bare the intellectual deceit in this matter.) So our scribes use
that prophecy to date Jesus' saying.
But Jesus said Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, UNTIL the time of the Gentiles
be fulfilled (our own age.) Meaning the Jews will again inhabit Jerusalem. Early Christians took
Jesus' advice and fled.

BTW
What is this "time of the Gentiles be fulfilled"?
I think it means when the Gentiles treat the Gospel in the same way the Jews did.
That happened in the 20th Century, and Jerusalem was in Jewish hands again in the
1960's.
Click to expand...

It was all over by 70 AD.

Daniel wasn't talking about Jesus. Poor scholarship.
 
sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
PruePhillip said:
Who was Daniel referring to, then?
Or for that matter, who was Jacob, Moses, Malachi, Job, David and Zechariah speaking of?
Click to expand...

Cyrus.. Daniel is not a prophet. The book was written by a group in the 2nd century BC .. its a history and a very poor one at that. Daniel was never in Babyalon.
 
P

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
sooda said:
Cyrus.. Daniel is not a prophet. The book was written by a group in the 2nd century BC .. its a history and a very poor one at that. Daniel was never in Babyalon.
Click to expand...

Okay, don't answer it then.

Daniel:
Jerusalem will be restored (Babylonian captivity era)
The Messiah will come.
The Messiah will be cut off
The enemy shall destroy the temple and the city (again.)
The Messiah shall come to his temple while it still stands.
This enemy was one that cut off even the Messiah.

This is Rome and the Messiah is Jesus
 
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