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The Slow Death Of Christianity In The United States

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
You actually think the Lion's Den tale is hard history? Really?
The Fiery Furnace?
The Writing on the Wall?

What about Daphne turning into a tree to escape Apollo? Why isn't that hard history too?

The Greeks never expected to find the gods on Mount Olympus.
Believing Jews and Christians never expected to be surprised
when it was confirmed there WAS a House of David back in the
Bronze Age.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Please give me chapter and verse. As it stands I don't see what the problem is.

There is no "problem"
Jacob was doing what Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, David, Ezekiel, Daniel, Malachi and
many others did - they wrote of the Messiah. In fact, with time this vision became
more and more detailed. I do love David's account of the suffering Messiah - with
his hands and feet pierced, suffering on the cross, dying for the sins of a nation
which rejected him.
Jacob's blessing to Judah is in Genesis 49:10
King James Bible
The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until
Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.


27 words more or less summed up the entire Old Testament, and the New one at
that. Shiloh is just a translation, it means Messiah, Redeemer, He who is to come.
A Bronze Age term, most likely taken from the cultic center of Shiloh - pre Jerusalem
times.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
The only reason most Christians are leaving the churches,
Because for those Christians, like myself, that does not belong to any church.
Because in those churches people are being taught by man's teachings and not the teachings of Christ Jesus.

Jesus Christ condemned the teachings of man's in Matthew 15:7-9.
7 You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"

So why would I want to belong to a church knowing that Jesus Christ condemned man's teachings.
And that Pastor,Preacher, if I'm not wrong is a man.
Therefore man's teachings.

9--"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"

No, the above I think is the reason.

Referencing a book as if it wasn't written by a person (man)...as if it is special above and beyond all other such books with largely the same claim to divine validation, as if somehow the centuries of cultural development, improvements in scientific knowledge and awareness of cross-cultural realities just doesn't matter.

This is why.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Greeks never expected to find the gods on Mount Olympus.
Says who?
Believing Jews and Christians never expected to be surprised when it was confirmed there WAS a House of David back in the
Bronze Age.
So what? The books I've read didn't have a problem with an historical David, just when, where, and how important.
The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
What does 'a lawgiver from between his feet' mean?

What does 'until Shiloh come' mean?

The people who gather are obviously the Jewish people under a Jewish ruler. It's not a Christian statement in any way. (Neither is the rest of the Tanakh, of course.)
 

sooda

Veteran Member
The only reason most Christians are leaving the churches,
Because for those Christians, like myself, that does not belong to any church.
Because in those churches people are being taught by man's teachings and not the teachings of Christ Jesus.

Jesus Christ condemned the teachings of man's in Matthew 15:7-9.
7 You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"

So why would I want to belong to a church knowing that Jesus Christ condemned man's teachings.
And that Pastor,Preacher, if I'm not wrong is a man.
Therefore man's teachings.

9--"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"

I don't think that's the reason. It think it is doglike faith in epic myths and fairy tales.. To commit to fundamentalism, you have to deny education, science and your own brain.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Says who?
So what? The books I've read didn't have a problem with an historical David, just when, where, and how important.
What does 'a lawgiver from between his feet' mean?

What does 'until Shiloh come' mean?

The people who gather are obviously the Jewish people under a Jewish ruler. It's not a Christian statement in any way. (Neither is the rest of the Tanakh, of course.)

Shiloh was a place of worship. A special place, the center of worship for Israel.
Shiloh as a personal name meant a special person, the center of worship.
The Messiah has many names in the OT, none of them are 'Jesus.'

Between his feet - in This case, his protection.

Some translations actually specify "nations" instead of "people"

New International Version
... and the obedience of the nations shall be his.

People's means everyone. The inference here is that Israel has ended, along
with its monarchy and law with the word "UNTIL"

Until a generation or so ago skeptics made the point, "There is no evidence for
any King David." Now it's shifted - I called that "skeptics in the gaps."
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
I don't think that's the reason. It think it is doglike faith in epic myths and fairy tales.. To commit to fundamentalism, you have to deny education, science and your own brain.

As a science buff I have to say - science claims there is no knowledge but through science,
but it cannot prove that.
IMO having faith in God involves a different kind of science - proving things for yourself. This
is not a corporate thing, it is highly personal.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Messiah has many names in the OT, none of them are 'Jesus.'
Nor does Jesus in any way conform to the model this suggests.
Some translations actually specify "nations" instead of "people"
New International Version
... and the obedience of the nations shall be his.
That likewise fits neither Israel nor Jesus.
Until a generation or so ago skeptics made the point, "There is no evidence for any King David." Now it's shifted - I called that "skeptics in the gaps."
Thanks for the clarification. I haven't come across it myself.

I still fail to see anything like a successful prophecy, even a bland one here. A credible prophesy requires a very reliable record of the precise place, time and wording in which it was made (given that all the examples of meaningful purported prophecies are extremely likely to have been written after the event), must make exact predictions about remote and unforeseeable events, and must come true exactly as scripted. Nothing in the bible comes close. Slogans about Israel don't count as prophecy, and the idea that any part of the Tanakh predicts Jesus is unfounded fiction.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
I still fail to see anything like a successful prophecy, even a bland one here. A credible prophesy requires a very reliable record of the precise place, time and wording in which it was made (given that all the examples of meaningful purported prophecies are extremely likely to have been written after the event), must make exact predictions about remote and unforeseeable events, and must come true exactly as scripted. Nothing in the bible comes close. Slogans about Israel don't count as prophecy, and the idea that any part of the Tanakh predicts Jesus is unfounded fiction.

What you say is that prophecy must conform to your own criteria to be acceptable.
And thus you can, with self confidence, strike out the bulk of prophecy - and ignore
what can't be explained away.

The Jews held to the prophecies that in the "latter days" they will return to their
ancestral home in tropical Palestine (even those Napoleon found in Russia ca
1812 would say "Next year in Jerusalem.") But there's no date for the return.
It was an article of faith to many generations that one day there would be a Jewish
nation again. Kind of like some crying for another Babylonian nation, complete with
religion, culture, language and capitol.
The bible gave various hints as to the timing. Jesus said it would be when the Gentiles
time is "fulfilled" and I think Daniel or Ezekiel said it would be when God's anger is
consummated against the Jewish nation.
For special reasons the bible rarely gave dates - the main one being there were none
we could understand.
Sure, the prophecies of the Return were vague, ambiguous and required diligent
reading to find and understand them - but that's the point. But they are there, and
if you read Herzl 1897, War of Independence 1948 and capture of the temple mount
1967 you see things the 19th Century academia said would never happen.
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
I find Messiah mentioned at Daniel 9:25-26 is about a future Messiah who proved to be Jesus.
Jesus instructed to teach about God's kingdom as mentioned at Daniel 2:44.
God's kingdom government in the hands of Christ Jesus for a thousand years will crush the statue's feet.
We are now at the statue's ' time of the toes ' or more like the ' time of the toenails ' before Jesus takes action.
The Jewish Messiah was to be human man, not a god man. He was to deliver the Jews from oppression. Jesus did not fit the bill.
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady

sooda

Veteran Member
What you say is that prophecy must conform to your own criteria to be acceptable.
And thus you can, with self confidence, strike out the bulk of prophecy - and ignore
what can't be explained away.

The Jews held to the prophecies that in the "latter days" they will return to their
ancestral home in tropical Palestine (even those Napoleon found in Russia ca
1812 would say "Next year in Jerusalem.") But there's no date for the return.
It was an article of faith to many generations that one day there would be a Jewish
nation again. Kind of like some crying for another Babylonian nation, complete with
religion, culture, language and capitol.
The bible gave various hints as to the timing. Jesus said it would be when the Gentiles
time is "fulfilled" and I think Daniel or Ezekiel said it would be when God's anger is
consummated against the Jewish nation.
For special reasons the bible rarely gave dates - the main one being there were none
we could understand.
Sure, the prophecies of the Return were vague, ambiguous and required diligent
reading to find and understand them - but that's the point. But they are there, and
if you read Herzl 1897, War of Independence 1948 and capture of the temple mount
1967 you see things the 19th Century academia said would never happen.

Christian Zionism was promoted by Cyrus Scofield and his patron Samuel Untermyer for people just like you.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Christian Zionism was promoted by Cyrus Scofield and his patron Samuel Untermyer for people just like you.

Zionism is embedded in the bible. Even Isaiah, before the Babylonian captivity,
spoke of a SECOND RETURN of the Jews. Sounded daft - there was no first
return at that point.
But it's Herzl we owe the honor of modern Zionism. Frankly, makes no difference
to me. It's just interesting to be living in the history of it.
Now... in Ezekiel it speaks of this second return, and it says that the Jews will
be back in their homeland, "all of them." All? Can't be! There's Jew's all over the
world. But just watch the uptick of antisemitism - 80% increase here in Australia
last year. Maybe one day "all of them" will be true. That's bad news for the Gentiles.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Zionism is embedded in the bible. Even Isaiah, before the Babylonian captivity,
spoke of a SECOND RETURN of the Jews. Sounded daft - there was no first
return at that point.
But it's Herzl we owe the honor of modern Zionism. Frankly, makes no difference
to me. It's just interesting to be living in the history of it.
Now... in Ezekiel it speaks of this second return, and it says that the Jews will
be back in their homeland, "all of them." All? Can't be! There's Jew's all over the
world. But just watch the uptick of antisemitism - 80% increase here in Australia
last year. Maybe one day "all of them" will be true. That's bad news for the Gentiles.

Discover the Four Exiles of the Jewish People - The ...
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/3671017/jewish/Discover-the-Four-Exiles...
The Roman Empire brought the final blow for Jewish sovereignty in Israel and the final exile for the Jews, one that has lasted for nearly 2,000 years and has not yet ended. The Jewish people during that time were split into four factions: the Pharisees, Sadducees, Sicarii and Zealots.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What you say is that prophecy must conform to your own criteria to be acceptable. And thus you can, with self confidence, strike out the bulk of prophecy - and ignore what can't be explained away.
Respectfully, you've shown me nothing that can't be explained away. You've shown me no credible examples of prophecy at all, having regard to prophecy's extreme improbability and reliance on magic in the first place ─ or retrofitting, a vice so reliable you can date old documents by it.
The Jews held to the prophecies that in the "latter days" they will return to their ancestral home in tropical Palestine (even those Napoleon found in Russia ca 1812 would say "Next year in Jerusalem.") But there's no date for the return.
But there'll be a prophetic prediction for the date of the return after the event, and it'll be no more credible than anything else to do with prophecy.
t was an article of faith to many generations that one day there would be a Jewish nation again.
As I said before, political slogans aren't prophecy. And personally, I find serious fault with the politics of both sides in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but the greater fault lies with the greater power, Israel.
The bible gave various hints as to the timing. Jesus said it would be when the Gentiles time is "fulfilled" and I think Daniel or Ezekiel said it would be when God's anger is consummated against the Jewish nation.
All that is meaningless without an objective test for "when the Gentile's time is fulfilled". And of course there's none, and there won't be except in retrospect if there's ever such an event.
For special reasons the bible rarely gave dates - the main one being there were none we could understand.
In a pig's eye. That's just an excuse for the absence of substance in the mumbo-jumbo.
Sure, the prophecies of the Return were vague, ambiguous and required diligent reading to find and understand them - but that's the point.
Have you tried applying the rules of prophecy to, say, Dickens' Martin Chuzzlewit or Mitchell's Gone with the Wind? I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't be just as accurate under your system.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Respectfully, you've shown me nothing that can't be explained away. You've shown me no credible examples of prophecy at all, having regard to prophecy's extreme improbability and reliance on magic in the first place ─ or retrofitting, a vice so reliable you can date old documents by it.
But there'll be a prophetic prediction for the date of the return after the event, and it'll be no more credible than anything else to do with prophecy.
As I said before, political slogans aren't prophecy. And personally, I find serious fault with the politics of both sides in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but the greater fault lies with the greater power, Israel.
All that is meaningless without an objective test for "when the Gentile's time is fulfilled". And of course there's none, and there won't be except in retrospect if there's ever such an event.
In a pig's eye. That's just an excuse for the absence of substance in the mumbo-jumbo.
Have you tried applying the rules of prophecy to, say, Dickens' Martin Chuzzlewit or Mitchell's Gone with the Wind? I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't be just as accurate under your system.

The times of the Gentiles was the 42 months from 66-70AD and the Roman army during its destruction of Jerusalem.
 
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