The Slow Death Of Christianity In The United States

PruePhillip · Aug 11, 2019

sooda said:
Daniel was writing history.. The destruction of the first temple, the exile.. the redemption by Cyrus.

Yes, but then he went on to speak of future kingdoms that at the time were just
Etruscan tribes or Greek city states. And Daniel speaks of the Messiah coming
to his temple "while it still stands." And being "cut off" but not for himself but for
his people.
That's Jesus as Redeemer. To the Jews this was daft, their Messiah was a king
who would conquer the nations. But as Zechariah pointed out, the Messiah is both
Redeemer and Conqueror - he who rules the nations is mourned by the Jewish
nation because they pierced his hands and his feet. That bit of prophecy speaks
of events which haven't even happened yet.

sooda · Aug 11, 2019

PruePhillip said:
Yes, but then he went on to speak of future kingdoms that at the time were just
Etruscan tribes or Greek city states. And Daniel speaks of the Messiah coming
to his temple "while it still stands." And being "cut off" but not for himself but for
his people.
That's Jesus as Redeemer. To the Jews this was daft, their Messiah was a king
who would conquer the nations. But as Zechariah pointed out, the Messiah is both
Redeemer and Conqueror - he who rules the nations is mourned by the Jewish
nation because they pierced his hands and his feet. That bit of prophecy speaks
of events which haven't even happened yet.

Cite the verses and I'll try to explain.. Daniel was NOT a prophet.

blü 2 · Aug 11, 2019

KenS said:
When Was the Book of Daniel Written?

The evidence that it was written in the early 2nd century BCE is a great deal stronger than the evidence that it was written in the 7th century BCE.

The evidence that it's unhistorical is overwhelming, not least the barefaced folktales about the Lion's Den and the Writing on the Wall.

KenS said:
Of course, like King David, you can choose to not believe no matter what evidence is presented.

On the basis of what evidence do you believe in magic (the alteration of reality independently of the rules of physics)?

PruePhillip · Aug 11, 2019

sooda said:
Cite the verses and I'll try to explain.. Daniel was NOT a prophet.

There's a whole interpretive industry out there on Daniel.
It matters to many because Daniel is one rare instance where the focus of the bible is upon earthly issues.
I put it to you that that's sad.

However, Jesus warned the people that what Daniel spoke of concerned events yet to come.

Daniel 9:26
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince
that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto
the end of the war desolations are determined.

The Messiah is destroyed
but He doesn't die for himself - he dies for His people
The prince - undefined ruler, maybe Vespasian who campaigned in Israel and then became Emperor.
Destroy the city and the temple.- not pull down some walls or sacrifice a pig on the altar - DESTROY
A flood of millions - first Rome and its auxiliaries, and then foreign nationals to occupy Israel.
Desolations are determined - this goes back to Moses - a disobedient people "determined" to rebel
and as Jacob said, their nation ending with the Messiah - because God is "determined" also.

Next verse speaks of the "end" of the sacrifice - not a temporary cessation. Even another Jewish
temple will not bring back the sacrifice, I am sure.
Lots of references to the end of the Covenant too. The covenant of the Old Testament did not end
with the Greeks.
Many things are deliberately ambiguous or symbolic - but some things were clear enough for the
Jews of Jesus' time to understand. He warned them that Daniel's dire predictions were yet to be
fulfilled.

PruePhillip · Aug 11, 2019

blü 2 said:
The evidence that it was written in the early 2nd century BCE is a great deal stronger than the evidence that it was written in the 7th century BCE.

The evidence that it's unhistorical is overwhelming, not least the barefaced folktales about the Lion's Den and the Writing on the Wall.
On the basis of what evidence do you believe in magic (the alteration of reality independently of the rules of physics)?

Jesus made it clear there were things Daniel wrote that were yet to be fulfilled, and
that these things would not be long in coming.
As Daniel put it, the Messiah was "cut off" but for His people, not Himself. And what
was "determined" against the Jews, as Moses himself said, would be fulfilled. The
Jews would have no king or prince or sanctuary for many years, as Hosea put it.
But in the fullness of time, when the Gentiles themselves were an offense to God,
then Jerusalem will again belong to the Jewish people.
All this is history, and still unfolding today.

blü 2 · Aug 11, 2019

PruePhillip said:
Jesus made it clear there were things Daniel wrote that were yet to be fulfilled, and that these things would not be long in coming.

Grateful if you refresh my memory: where did Jesus make that clear?

PruePhillip said:
As Daniel put it, the Messiah was "cut off" but for His people, not Himself.

Again, chapter and verse would be helpful.

PruePhillip said:
But in the fullness of time, when the Gentiles themselves were an offense to God, then Jerusalem will again belong to the Jewish people.
All this is history, and still unfolding today.

Which Gentiles are an offense to God, specifically?

And the creation of the modern state of Israel was the result of a long political campaign with various threads, but not a little based on slogans from the bible. That doesn't count as prophecy, just as campaign technique.

PruePhillip · Aug 11, 2019

blü 2 said:
Grateful if you refresh my memory: where did Jesus make that clear?
Again, chapter and verse would be helpful.
Which Gentiles are an offense to God, specifically?

And the creation of the modern state of Israel was the result of a long political campaign with various threads, but not a little based on slogans from the bible. That doesn't count as prophecy, just as campaign technique.

Luke 24:12
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader
understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.…"

Same as Mark 13.
Jesus here, like Daniel, jumps across time incessantly.
Jesus is speaking of Daniel prophecy yet to be fulfilled As well Jesus is speaking of events yet to happen for us today. The OP re
decline of Christianity is connected to this - the Gentiles treating God like the Jews did.

Israel ca 1897 was a secular state. Won't stay that way, but doesn't matter - its the Jews
coming home the bible speaks of.

sooda · Aug 11, 2019

PruePhillip said:
There's a whole interpretive industry out there on Daniel.
It matters to many because Daniel is one rare instance where the focus of the bible is upon earthly issues.
I put it to you that that's sad.

However, Jesus warned the people that what Daniel spoke of concerned events yet to come.

Daniel 9:26
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince
that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto
the end of the war desolations are determined.

The Messiah is destroyed
but He doesn't die for himself - he dies for His people
The prince - undefined ruler, maybe Vespasian who campaigned in Israel and then became Emperor.
Destroy the city and the temple.- not pull down some walls or sacrifice a pig on the altar - DESTROY
A flood of millions - first Rome and its auxiliaries, and then foreign nationals to occupy Israel.
Desolations are determined - this goes back to Moses - a disobedient people "determined" to rebel
and as Jacob said, their nation ending with the Messiah - because God is "determined" also.

Next verse speaks of the "end" of the sacrifice - not a temporary cessation. Even another Jewish
temple will not bring back the sacrifice, I am sure.
Lots of references to the end of the Covenant too. The covenant of the Old Testament did not end
with the Greeks.
Many things are deliberately ambiguous or symbolic - but some things were clear enough for the
Jews of Jesus' time to understand. He warned them that Daniel's dire predictions were yet to be
fulfilled.

Daniel 9:26-27: In the Middle of the Seven-Year Long War with Rome, the Roman Army under Titus, the Future Emperor of Rome, besieged Jerusalem; put an end to Sacrifice and Offering by destroying Jerusalem and its Temple; and Set up Idols of Zeus, Caesar and Rome on the Eastern Wing of the Temple.

Riders · Aug 11, 2019

Skwim said:
If you look closely you'll see the 66% occurred in 1910. One hundred years later, 2010, the percentage was 25.5. A decrease of 61 %.

.

AHA!

blü 2 · Aug 12, 2019

PruePhillip said:
Luke 24:12
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader
understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.…"

Thanks for that. Presumably we're to read the 'holy place' as the Temple, and 'the abomination of desolation' as the Roman destruction of the Temple in 70 CE. The skeptical mind notes that Mark13:2, copied by Luke, was written about 75 CE, 5 years after the event, and reasonably concludes that the author of Mark, copied by Luke, was doing some retrofitting to make it appear thatMark's Jesus, hence Luke's, was predicting the Temple's fall. That, after all, is a vastly more likely explanation than prophecy, which is a form of magic, and on all the present evidence, wholly imaginary.

Meanwhile with Daniel's three references to the 'abomination of desolation', the first is Daniel 9:26, where he's talking about an 'anointed Prince' who will be the Messiah; and if I check the learned footnotes to my annotated RSV, I find the prophecy was 'satisfied' by Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who ticks all the boxes, including attacking the Temple in 167 BCE.

The second is Daniel 11:31 where (the same learned footnotes say) we're talking about Antiochus again.

The third is Daniel 12:11 (still with Antiochus in the background) where Daniel's told the end of days will come (and here again the footnotes speak) either 1,290 days or 1,333 days or possibly 2833 days, after the said abomination; so if we rely on this as prophecy, the world ended no later than 78 CE ─ which (I dare say we can agree) it didn't.

The cherry-picking of words and phrases (as in Luke here; Mark doesn't have that particular expression) was very popular in the centuries either side of 1 CE, but surely we've moved on from making up your own story with a pair of scissors?

PruePhillip said:
Same as Mark 13.

There the reference (13:2) is to all the great buildings, not just the Temple and the 'abomination' words aren't used; but I take your point.

PruePhillip · Aug 12, 2019

blü 2 said:
Thanks for that. Presumably we're to read the 'holy place' as the Temple, and 'the abomination of desolation' as the Roman destruction of the Temple in 70 CE. The skeptical mind notes that Mark13:2, copied by Luke, was written about 75 CE, 5 years after the event, and reasonably concludes that the author of Mark, copied by Luke, was doing some retrofitting to make it appear thatMark's Jesus, hence Luke's, was predicting the Temple's fall. That, after all, is a vastly more likely explanation than prophecy, which is a form of magic, and on all the present evidence, wholly imaginary.
.

Daniel, for one, predicted the temple's fall. And the long desolation of the Jewish people.
So too did Jesus, in all Gospels.
The Greeks did not destroy Jerusalem or the temple.
I don't get involved the 'days' of Daniel - they are symbolic only, and there's no agreement.
The Acts and the Epistles have no mention of the end of Israel - we can safely conclude
these authors wrote/lived before that event.
Furthermore, the Jews could have kept their nation but for two more wars, one in the following
century.
Luke was presumably gone from the scene with the end of his Book of Acts abruptly ending
when he arrived in Rome with Paul.
Many lives were saved by people heeding Jesus' advice concerning the coming Roman war.
I wonder if many were saved by leaving Jerusalem when the Jewish rebels lifted their own
siege in celebration at having destroyed General Gallus' legions.

blü 2 · Aug 12, 2019

PruePhillip said:
Daniel, for one, predicted the temple's fall. And the long desolation of the Jewish people.

The first temple was sacked in the latter 10th century BCE , restored in the latter 9th century BCE, sacked again c. 700 BCE, and finally destroyed in the latter 6th century BCE. The second temple was finished around 500 BCE, profaned in the early 2nd century BCE and destroyed 70 CE. In other words, nothing in the history of the Temple suggests that it was magically secure from harm.

As I said, Daniel's 'prophecy' (another retrofit) referred to Antiochus, not to the Romans. The gospel authors, if they knew that, were not concerned with real history anyway, only with the religious politics of their present.

PruePhillip said:
The Greeks did not destroy Jerusalem or the temple.

Just so. He threatened to, but was talked out of it.

PruePhillip said:
I don't get involved the 'days' of Daniel - they are symbolic only, and there's no agreement.

The record is clear, and the world's still here. Prophecy in the Tanakh and NT is a political tool. Even if the bible contained one wholly astonishing prediction, like the assassination of Kennedy by name and date, the explanation that it was an extraordinarily lucky guess, and the backup that it's evidence for human time travel, are still hugely more likely than supernatural foresight; but the bible has not one prophecy that could credibly be regarded as the real thing. (Neither has anyone else, of course.)

PruePhillip · Aug 12, 2019

blü 2 said:
.... the bible has not one prophecy that could credibly be regarded as the real thing. (Neither has anyone else, of course.)

Let me repeat Jacob's prophecy of his son Judah
Judah is the one who offered himself for his brother - that's typology at work.
Judah's line would be a royal one - though there was no Jewish nation and
it is said that God did not want a Jewish monarchy.
There would be a law.
And it would all end with the coming of the Messiah
And this Messiah would be He who is believed upon by the Gentiles.

There's tons of this stuff. But please, explain away this one.

Kenny · Aug 12, 2019

blü 2 said:
The evidence that it was written in the early 2nd century BCE is a great deal stronger than the evidence that it was written in the 7th century BCE.

The evidence that it's unhistorical is overwhelming, not least the barefaced folktales about the Lion's Den and the Writing on the Wall.
On the basis of what evidence do you believe in magic (the alteration of reality independently of the rules of physics)?

Come back when there some intelligent information that I can deal with.

sooda · Aug 12, 2019

KenS said:
Come back when there some intelligent information that I can deal with.

Your Bible education is very shallow.

Kenny · Aug 12, 2019

URAVIP2ME said:
I am wondering if you could give us one example that impresses you ___________________

blü 2 · Aug 12, 2019

PruePhillip said:
Let me repeat Jacob's prophecy of his son Judah
Judah is the one who offered himself for his brother - that's typology at work.
Judah's line would be a royal one - though there was no Jewish nation and
it is said that God did not want a Jewish monarchy.
There would be a law.
And it would all end with the coming of the Messiah
And this Messiah would be He who is believed upon by the Gentiles.

There's tons of this stuff. But please, explain away this one.

Please give me chapter and verse. As it stands I don't see what the problem is.

sooda · Aug 12, 2019

PruePhillip said:
Jesus made it clear there were things Daniel wrote that were yet to be fulfilled, and
that these things would not be long in coming.
As Daniel put it, the Messiah was "cut off" but for His people, not Himself. And what
was "determined" against the Jews, as Moses himself said, would be fulfilled. The
Jews would have no king or prince or sanctuary for many years, as Hosea put it.
But in the fullness of time, when the Gentiles themselves were an offense to God,
then Jerusalem will again belong to the Jewish people.
All this is history, and still unfolding today.

That already happened when the Jews returned from Babylon.

blü 2 · Aug 12, 2019

KenS said:
Come back when there some intelligent information that I can deal with.

You actually think the Lion's Den tale is hard history? Really?
The Fiery Furnace?
The Writing on the Wall?

What about Daphne turning into a tree to escape Apollo? Why isn't that hard history too?

PruePhillip · Aug 12, 2019

sooda said:
That already happened when the Jews returned from Babylon.

So.... there was a Messiah who gave himself for his people, way back in Babylonian times?
And that was the end of the Jewish people? W.w.w.w.a.a.a.a.i.i.i.i.t.t.t.t.t.t...a minute............

The Slow Death Of Christianity In The United States

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