Is sexuality a choice?

Dan Mellis · Aug 8, 2019

Hawkins said:
Nope. Faith is the fundamental way for humans to reach a truth of any kind. That's how humans reach long past by history books written as human testimonies and for later humans to believe with faith. The same applies to God's truth!

Sin and Law are well defined in the Bible which is in the form of human testimonies, that is, the only way for truth of this kind to convey. Unless God chooses to show up by breaking the covenant between God and men. Such a covenant specifies that men in majority will in the end rely on faith to be saved. God thus has to hide behind. Then the only way remains for God's truth to convey is for His chosen witnesses to write down testimonies for the rest of humankind to believe with faith. It is the same route how humans get to historical truth by means of history books. Shall there be a truth, this is the only way!!!

So faith is a synonym for trust. You can trust something for good reasons or for bad ones. For example, I have faith in my doctor, because I have lots of observed evidence that the standard of medical care here is high. To have faith in the bible or in a god simply means to accept something as true without good reason.

Aaaand then I switched off when you went to the bible as evidence. That's called circular reasoning. You can't use your religion to prove your religion.

MonkeyFire · Aug 8, 2019

I couldn't choose to be heterosexual, itd be a paradox.

Dan Mellis · Aug 8, 2019

MonkeyFire said:
I couldn't choose to be heterosexual, itd be a paradox.

Then sexuality isn't a choice

Samael_Khan · Aug 8, 2019

Evangelicalhumanist said:
It's really important to you that it be a disorder, isnt' it? Does it make you feel better about yourself to denigrate others?

If the medical community (who ought to know at least a little something) don't call it a disorder, why do you feel such an urgent need? Are you smarter than all of them put together?

Nope. It isn't important to me at all whether it is a disorder or not. I don't care either way. I do care about where the facts and the discussion lead to. I see it purely as an intellectual discussion.

I don't see it as denigrating others. I question things whether people like it or not. And I want the answer to make sense. In order to understand one must ask questions whether tough or not. Asking questions so that I can understand and get other peoples thoughts on matters does make me feel good. And the fact that I have changed my mind just this afternoon on whether homosexuality is a choice or not because of asking these questions and stating my thoughts on the matter makes me feel damn good. This is one of the main reasons why I joined this forum. If people can convince me that it isn't a disorder conclusively by addressing my reasoning then that will make me feel even better.

I looked up the definition of what a disorder is. The link I check up about the APA gave this reason for why they don't consider homosexuality a disorder:

“We will no longer insist on a label of sickness for individuals who insist that they are well and demonstrate no generalized impairment in social effectiveness."

The reason they don't consider homosexuality a disorder is because homosexuals think they are well and it doesn't impair social effectiveness. They didn't consider it from the point that I was making and until I see that they considered that I will still think it is a disorder until I see the proof that they took that into consideration or someone can convince me otherwise.

And regarding being "smarter than them all being put together" this is what the first article said: "5,854 psychiatrists voted to remove homosexuality from the DSM, and 3,810 to retain it." So it wasn't a unanimous decision by a long margin.

Jainarayan · Aug 8, 2019

Israel Khan said:
My discussion with you is making me think more and making me aware that sexual orientation cannot be a choice. Evidence shows that in some cases it can be conditioned through environmental factors and trauma, but those aren't choices.

No one really knows where and how sexuality arises. Over time humans have evolved the ability to have sex at any time. About the only other animals that do that are bonobos. Most other animals have set times of the year to reproduce.. There is no "gay gene", as in a single gene that causes homosexuality, any more than there is a single gene that causes blue eyes. All characteristics are controlled by many genes together, or several traits controlled by one gene, but nothing has been identified as the gay gene, and the entire human genome has been mapped. For example, gene ANKK1 rs1800497 controls the following (it's from my genome report):

A1/A1: Bad at avoidance of errors. 0.25x lower OCD; 0.56x lower Tardive Diskinesia; higher ADHD; 1.4x Alcohol Dependence; lower Postoperative Nausea; Increased obesity; less pleasure response; Bupropion ineffective; 2.4x risk for adenoma recurrence. The DRD2 TaqIA A1/A1 version causes less dopamine receptors. Doesn't learn from mistakes well. Men have 0.25x reduced risk of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder but higher risk of ADHD. Women have lower Persistence. 0.56x reduced risk of Tardive Diskinesia when taking dopamine receptor antagonists. Slightly increased risk of alcoholism and smoking addiction. Slower recovery from traumatic brain injury. Lower risk of postoperative nausea within 6 hours of surgery. Bupropion (Wellbutrin, Budeprion, Prexaton, Elontril, Aplenzin, Zyban, Voxra) doesn't ...

Incidentally my version of the gene is A/A: Bad at avoidance of errors.... Doesn't learn from mistakes well. And that could not be more true. I make the same mistakes over and over again.

Is it possible that there is a latent propensity for someone to be homosexual? Sure, and something could trigger it to manifest. That's probably why we hear that so-and-so "turned gay". No, they didn't. They were always gay, they may have suppressed it so much they were able to marry and have children, thinking they were straight, but something made them realize that's not who they were.

1213 · Aug 8, 2019

Polymath257 said:
Well, maybe they don't base their morality on the Bible. Maybe they don't believe in a 'eternal life' or 'eternal punishment'.

In my opinion it is not even moral question. It is essentially about what is reasonable. Gay sex is just not reasonable. It is misuse of body parts, shows that person doesn’t understand the purposes of different parts of body. It could be compared to that person tries to eat through his ear, because it is also hole in the head.

Polymath257 · Aug 8, 2019

1213 said:
In my opinion it is not even moral question. It is essentially about what is reasonable. Gay sex is just not reasonable. It is misuse of body parts, shows that person doesn’t understand the purposes of different parts of body. It could be compared to that person tries to eat through his ear, because it is also hole in the head.

Why is it a 'misuse of body parts'? One of the uses of said body parts is to give and receive pleasure. That is as true of gay sex as it is for straight sex.

Or are you assuming that any use of those body parts except for elimination and procreation is 'unreasonable'?

If so, I find that position unreasonable.

Jainarayan · Aug 8, 2019

Israel Khan said:
The reason they don't consider homosexuality a disorder is because homosexuals think they are well and it doesn't impair social effectiveness.

Correct, but that's not to say there aren't plenty of gays and lesbians who don't like themselves. I'd say that's because of societal pressure. I've interacted with some in real life and on-line. I was even one myself, to the point of being homophobic. Yes me, the Happy Homo at one time simultaneously

Denied being gay.
Hated myself if I was gay (God forbid I was!).
Made fun of gays in some of the worst ways.
Wanted to be with a man.
Wanted to date women, but couldn't bring myself to do it.

Talk about conflict. All because of societal pressure. Fortunately that all went away... after many years and tears and wanting to end myself. This is only a fraction of a percent of what we live with because we're told there's something wrong with us.

Btw, if you met me you probably wouldn't think I'm gay.

Samael_Khan · Aug 8, 2019

Jainarayan said:
No one really knows where and how sexuality arises. Over time humans have evolved the ability to have sex at any time. About the only other animals that do that are bonobos. Most other animals have set times of the year to reproduce.. There is no "gay gene", as in a single gene that causes homosexuality, any more than there is a single gene that causes blue eyes. All characteristics are controlled by many genes together, or several traits controlled by one gene, but nothing has been identified as the gay gene, and the entire human genome has been mapped. For example, gene ANKK1 rs1800497 controls the following (it's from my genome report):

A1/A1: Bad at avoidance of errors. 0.25x lower OCD; 0.56x lower Tardive Diskinesia; higher ADHD; 1.4x Alcohol Dependence; lower Postoperative Nausea; Increased obesity; less pleasure response; Bupropion ineffective; 2.4x risk for adenoma recurrence. The DRD2 TaqIA A1/A1 version causes less dopamine receptors. Doesn't learn from mistakes well. Men have 0.25x reduced risk of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder but higher risk of ADHD. Women have lower Persistence. 0.56x reduced risk of Tardive Diskinesia when taking dopamine receptor antagonists. Slightly increased risk of alcoholism and smoking addiction. Slower recovery from traumatic brain injury. Lower risk of postoperative nausea within 6 hours of surgery. Bupropion (Wellbutrin, Budeprion, Prexaton, Elontril, Aplenzin, Zyban, Voxra) doesn't ...

Incidentally my version of the gene is A/A: Bad at avoidance of errors.... Doesn't learn from mistakes well. And that could not be more true. I make the same mistakes over and over again.

Is it possible that there is a latent propensity for someone to be homosexual? Sure, and something could trigger it to manifest. That's probably why we hear that so-and-so "turned gay". No, they didn't. They were always gay, they may have suppressed it so much they were able to marry and have children, thinking they were straight, but something made them realize that's not who they were.

This is pretty fascinating. So the gene actually dictates your personality pretty much as well? It would be cool to see how this corresponds with the Myers-Briggs personality profile.

So are you then saying that there is a combination of genes that cause someone to be homosexual or heterosexual?

Your last statement: Doesn't that mean that sexual orientation is a choice to the extent that one cannot fully suppress their inherent sexual orientation but can "switch to the other side" for the most part? Then isn't it a matter of dominant sexual orientation for a person rather than someone being specifically 100% homosexual vs 100% heterosexual?

Jainarayan · Aug 8, 2019

1213 said:
It is misuse of body parts, shows that person doesn’t understand the purposes of different parts of body.

You never masturbated?

Jainarayan · Aug 8, 2019

Israel Khan said:
This is pretty fascinating. So the gene actually dictates your personality pretty much as well? It would be cool to see how this corresponds with the Myers-Briggs personality profile.

That particular gene controls one aspect of my personality.

So are you then saying that there is a combination of genes that cause someone to be homosexual or heterosexual?

Most likely. That's the direction the science has been going to for a number of years, actually.

Your last statement: Doesn't that mean that sexual orientation is a choice to the extent that one cannot fully suppress their inherent sexual orientation but can "switch to the other side" for the most part?

I'd say it's more a "playing a role", largely subconsciously. Those who can switch hit are ... drumroll... bisexual. They are attracted to men and women equally. I knew a guy, lived upstairs from me, that would bring anyone and anything home to have sex with it. He actually admitted he didn't care if it was a man or a woman, he just loved having sex with another warm body.

Another personal revelation. While I am attracted to men, I do have an attraction for women, as mothers. I would dearly love to be a father and a husband insofar as it's the picture of the happy little family. The idea brings out the "protector and provider" in me. Ego thing? Probably. My wife would essentially be a "beard" or a trophy wife, because as much as I'd probably love her as the mother of my children, the idea of having sex with a woman turns me off (sorry again, ladies

).

Then isn't it a matter of dominant sexual orientation for a person rather than someone being specifically 100% homosexual vs 100% heterosexual?

Oh yes, no doubt. It's said almost no one is 100% anything. I'm sure there are exceptions. Sexuality is a sliding scale. See my last comments about being a husband and father. There's an element of heterosexuality there.

Samael_Khan · Aug 8, 2019

Jainarayan said:
Correct, but that's not to say there aren't plenty of gays and lesbians who don't like themselves. I'd say that's because of societal pressure. I've interacted with some in real life and on-line. I was even one myself, to the point of being homophobic. Yes me, the Happy Homo at one time simultaneously

Denied being gay.

Hated myself if I was gay (God forbid I was!).

Made fun of gays in some of the worst ways.

Wanted to be with a man.

Wanted to date women, but couldn't bring myself to do it.

Talk about conflict. All because of societal pressure. Fortunately that all went away... after many years and tears and wanting to end myself. This is only a fraction of a percent of what we live with because we're told there's something wrong with us.

Btw, if you met me you probably wouldn't think I'm gay.

I know about people like that. Especially with regard to religions and religious countries. The LGBTQ community has had it extremely tough.

I personally think that those who hate homosexuals are probably in fear of being gay themselves because of societal pressure and what they think of themselves. They want to be "manly". They feel uncomfortable because when a man touches them they feel the attraction.

I am very glad for you for having the guts and honesty to express who you really are.

To me there is nothing more depressing and oppressive than not being allowed to engage in true self expression and self acceptance. I have been doing research into that as of late and the research shows that not being able to express the truth about ourselves does lead to suicide in many cases regarding many things.

I do see now how me saying that homosexuality is a disorder can be problematic. If I was aware of what you had to go through in the past I wouldn't have even brought the point up. The consequences aren't worth it. My apologies.

Samael_Khan · Aug 8, 2019

Jainarayan said:
That particular gene controls one aspect of my personality.

Most likely. That's the direction the science has been going to for a number of years, actually.

I'd say it's more a "playing a role", largely subconsciously. Those who can switch hit are ... drumroll... bisexual. They are attracted to men and women equally. I knew a guy, lived upstairs from me, that would bring anyone and anything home to have sex with it. He actually admitted he didn't care if it was a man or a woman, he just loved having sex with another warm body.

Another personal revelation. While I am attracted to men, I do have an attraction for women, as mothers. I would dearly love to be a father and a husband insofar as it's the picture of the happy little family. The idea brings out the "protector and provider" in me. Ego thing? Probably. My wife would essentially be a "beard" or a trophy wife, because as much as I'd probably love her as the mother of my children, the idea of having sex with a woman turns me off (sorry again, ladies ).

Oh yes, no doubt. It's said almost no one is 100% anything. I'm sure there are exceptions. Sexuality is a sliding scale. See my last comments about being a husband and father. There's an element of heterosexuality there.

So then, it seems like an individual has the potential to bat either way, but there are dominant sexual orientations and the dominance is also affected by society, or at least the outward expression of sexual orientation is shaped by society.

Regarding the trophy wife, a man has to be a man. So it makes sense that your ego would want to protect and provide.

Jainarayan · Aug 8, 2019

Israel Khan said:
I personally think that those who hate homosexuals are probably in fear of being gay themselves because of societal pressure and what they think of themselves. They want to be "manly". They feel uncomfortable because when a man touches them they feel the attraction.

That's a common belief, yes. There have been studies, and admittedly I know of them only in passing, where ostensibly straight men had some kind of Penis-O-Meter (Peter-O-Meter?

) attached and were shown homoerotic photos. They had "reactions" to the photos.

I am very glad for you for having the guts and honesty to express who you really are. To me there is nothing more depressing and oppressive than not being allowed to engage in true self expression and self acceptance. I have been doing research into that as of late and the research shows that not being able to express the truth about ourselves does lead to suicide in many cases regarding many things.

It took me a long time. I was 38 years old when I came out (I'm 62 now). Through high school and college I agonized over it... "I'm supposed to like women, why don't I want to be with them?" It was the old "meh, haven't found the right one yet". I had my parents believing that one. It was men I fantasized about when I was flying solo. After I finished I'd invariably say "what's wrong with me, I can't be gay, I can't like men". Rinse repeat.

First I came out to myself, then the world. It was a slow start. I checked some personals in the newspaper because I was testing myself. I found one that sounded promising. We made phone contact, never met because the distance was actually too great, We talked for at least an hour or two, and here's the point-of-no-return... in the course of the conversation I said something like "well yeah, because I'm gay". He was the first person I ever said that to. Not even to myself. It was like I was hearing someone else.

Then the wall came down just like Jericho.

I do see now how me saying that homosexuality is a disorder can be problematic. If I was aware of what you had to go through in the past I wouldn't have even brought the point up. The consequences aren't worth it. My apologies.

No need to apologize, no offense taken where none is intended. It may be part of my dharma (duty in life) to help explain things.

Jainarayan · Aug 8, 2019

Israel Khan said:
So then, it seems like an individual has the potential to bat either way, but there are dominant sexual orientations and the dominance is also affected by society, or at least the outward expression of sexual orientation is shaped by society.

I think yes. It's not all cut and dry as we like to think. Even some of my gay brothers and sisters will dig their heels in and argue black and white. It's not... lots of gray.

Regarding the trophy wife, a man has to be a man. So it makes sense that your ego would want to protect and provide.

It's what males largely do.

Shadow Wolf · Aug 8, 2019

Israel Khan said:
That makes no sense. One function of the genitals is to reproduce. Not being attracted to the opposite sex certainly contradicts that.

It does make sense. The genitals have more functions that reproduction, and more places than the genitals are erogenous zones that derive pleasure from sexual stimulation. And, of course, not everyone wants kids, so there is that. Being attracted to one sex or the other doesn't contradict anything, other than those who insist we must be this way or that and we have to this and that.

Samael_Khan · Aug 8, 2019

Jainarayan said:
That's a common belief, yes. There have been studies, and admittedly I know of them only in passing, where ostensibly straight men had some kind of Penis-O-Meter (Peter-O-Meter? ) attached and were shown homoerotic photos. They had "reactions" to the photos.

I have heard of that one too. Very funny. Must have been life changing for them

.

Jainarayan said:
It took me a long time. I was 38 years old when I came out (I'm 62 now). Through high school and college I agonized over it... "I'm supposed to like women, why don't I want to be with them?" It was the old "meh, haven't found the right one yet". I had my parents believing that one. It was men I fantasized about when I was flying solo. After I finished I'd invariably say "what's wrong with me, I can't be gay, I can't like men". Rinse repeat.

First I came out to myself, then the world. It was a slow start. I checked some personals in the newspaper because I was testing myself. I found one that sounded promising. We made phone contact, never met because the distance was actually too great, We talked for at least an hour or two, and here's the point-of-no-return... in the course of the conversation I said something like "well yeah, because I'm gay". He was the first person I ever said that to. Not even to myself. It was like I was hearing someone else.

Then the wall came down just like Jericho.

Firstly: Am I, like, the youngest person on this forum? I think that everybody I have met on here are 50 and above in age. I am shocked. I might start a thread about it.

But wow... that is some self realization journey. I wonder how many people actually live like that? I know what it means to live my life while being dishonest with myself and it can be very depressing. Like your experience, once you take that step with honesty, the Walls of Jericho Fall. No returning after that.

Jainarayan said:
No need to apologize, no offense taken where none is intended. It may be part of my dharma (duty in life) to help explain things.

I am relieved. I usually am of the natural disposition that because I don't get affected by words, others don't either. Thanks for explaining, it has expanded my mind a lot.

Shadow Wolf · Aug 8, 2019

Hawkins said:
In the very contrary, all human knowledge is in the form of faith!

When I build a robot, there is no faith involved, only logic and proofs offered by mathematics. Much of our knowledge is also priori knowledge. And there is no faith in knowing the sun, from our relative perspective, appears to rise and the East and set in the West, and will continue to do so until the Earth and Sun are no more.
Faith has no facts. Facts and evidence are the basis of knowledge.

Samael_Khan · Aug 8, 2019

Shadow Wolf said:
It does make sense. The genitals have more functions that reproduction, and more places than the genitals are erogenous zones that derive pleasure from sexual stimulation. And, of course, not everyone wants kids, so there is that. Being attracted to one sex or the other doesn't contradict anything, other than those who insist we must be this way or that and we have to this and that.

Well, just so you know, in the short time that I last replied to you, it has become apparent that humans most likely have dominant sexual orientations rather than being either heterosexual or homosexual. So we are all most likely bisexual.

I won't be discussing whether something is a disorder or not anymore because I don't feel comfortable mentioning that viewpoint, as it isn't worth the effect it might have on homosexuals who might be reading this thread.

Shadow Wolf · Aug 8, 2019

Israel Khan said:
it has become apparent that humans most likely have dominant sexual orientations rather than being either heterosexual or homosexual.

I'm not sure if I would go as far to say most people are bi, but if not for the stigmas I am certain most people would not be "firm heterosexual." (or homosexual) Still preference towards one or the other, but open to either.

Israel Khan said:
I won't be discussing whether something is a disorder or not anymore because I don't feel comfortable mentioning that viewpoint, as it isn't worth the effect it might have on homosexuals who might be reading this thread.

They aren't fragile glass dolls. Patronizing them, however, is far worse. Stupidity is one thing, "you can't handle this and it will make you uncomfortable" is awhole other thing,

Is sexuality a choice?

Thorsredballs

Well-Known Member

Thorsredballs

Goosebender

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय

Well-Known Member

Think & Care

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय

Goosebender

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय

Goosebender

Goosebender

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय

Certified People sTabber

Goosebender

Certified People sTabber

Goosebender

Certified People sTabber