Should Men and Women be Segregated in Mosques?

stvdv · Aug 7, 2019

Muffled said:
I believe I was once invited to a Bible study by a group that had girls in it. When I attended I found the boys separated from the girls.

The Ashram I was, they had the girls 500 meters away from us. Was good in the beginning, while I had less concentration to have them 500m away

Muffled said:
Since I was less interested in the bible than I was in girls.
The fact that there wren't any distracted me from the teaching and eventually I stopped going.

How you phrased it, I can only conclude that you were only distracted from the teaching because you were more into girls than into the Bible

SugarOcean · Aug 7, 2019

stvdv said:
If that is a fact, then it's not so strange that Geert Wilders is so fanatical on this subject

But is that a fact? I met a Muslim woman from Iran who almost bit of my head, when I asked that question. So you might be right, at least I won't question her again about this. She told me "You never lived there, so you don't know" ... she was right there.

And if Sharia law is very hostile to women, then the Muslim men must be monsters (being hostile to all women). Hard to believe though (in this age)

Maybe I should visit the Middle East (for a few years), then I might maybe know what is really happening

What I see of the Dutch Muslims I meet seems nice.

Do they?
Have you ever heard of the filmmaker Theo Van Gogh?
Dutch film-maker, who angered Muslims, shot dead

Sharia is barbaric and sexist.
Mecca Saudi Arabia. Take your pick of links to read below. 2002, Muslim girls fire claimed at least 14 dead. They were trying to escape the flames when they were beaten back into the burning school. They weren't properly attired so as to be worthy of living. So they burned alive.
2002 mecca girls school fire at DuckDuckGo

Edit to add P.S. You'll encounter fake Muslims on-line, of course. There is ample opportunity on the net to pretend to be what one is not. American, Catholic, Veteran, Cop, etc...
Research to find the truth about Islam and Sharia and from non-Wikipedia sources too.
If you go to the ME to see for yourself, be careful. Especially if you're female.

Dawnofhope · Aug 8, 2019

TagliatelliMonster said:
The underlying reasoning for segregation, is what determines if it is appropriate or not.

And I think you'll find that the reasoning for segregation of sexes in islamic cultures, is not at all comparable to why we segregate public bathrooms or changing rooms.

Of course the reasons are very different. I used contrasting scenarios to facilitate further discussion and to clarify.

Dawnofhope · Aug 8, 2019

loverofhumanity said:
Hi Adrian!

I think that uninformed people forget that Islam did a lot for women’s rights when it initially banned infanticide where if the first born were a girl it was a tradition then to bury her alive in the sand.

There are also verses in the Quran aimed at preserving the dignity and nobility of women.

Hi David,

I don’t see any of what Muhammad taught as anti women. To the contrary He lifted the status of women, perhaps as far as possible for tribal society in the 7th century. Forbidding the practice of infanticide is an excellent example.

Infanticide is explicitly prohibited by the Qur'an.[54]"And do not kill your children for fear of poverty; We give them sustenance and yourselves too; surely to kill them is a great wrong."[55] Together with polytheism and homicide, infanticide is regarded as a grave sin (see 6:151 and 60:12).[49] Infanticide is also implicitly denounced in the story of Pharaoh's slaughter of the male children of Israelites (see 2:49; 7:127; 7:141; 14:6; 28:4; 40:25)

Infanticide - Wikipedia

Dawnofhope · Aug 8, 2019

Dan Mellis said:
Yep, and Muhammad married a 9 year old. Let's not cherry pick.

It’s best to avoid judging practices centuries ago with today. For one life expectancy was much lower than it is today. There was little or no education that children engaged in. We have no way of knowing the age of Aisha who became one of the most influential women of her day and a staunch proponent of Islam after Muhammad passed on.

Dawnofhope · Aug 8, 2019

SugarOcean said:
Do they?
Have you ever heard of the filmmaker Theo Van Gogh?
Dutch film-maker, who angered Muslims, shot dead

Sharia is barbaric and sexist.
Mecca Saudi Arabia. Take your pick of links to read below. 2002, Muslim girls fire claimed at least 14 dead. They were trying to escape the flames when they were beaten back into the burning school. They weren't properly attired so as to be worthy of living. So they burned alive.
2002 mecca girls school fire at DuckDuckGo

Edit to add P.S. You'll encounter fake Muslims on-line, of course. There is ample opportunity on the net to pretend to be what one is not. American, Catholic, Veteran, Cop, etc...
Research to find the truth about Islam and Sharia and from non-Wikipedia sources too.
If you go to the ME to see for yourself, be careful. Especially if you're female.

We need to distinguish what Muhammad taught from the behaviour of Muslims. Remember Christianity has a history of appalling behaviour from those bearing Christ’s name. At one time they justified themselves with the Bible only to be condemned by Christians of a subsequent age.

Dan Mellis · Aug 8, 2019

adrian009 said:
It’s best to avoid judging practices centuries ago with today. For one life expectancy was much lower than it is today. There was little or no education that children engaged in. We have no way of knowing the age of Aisha who became one of the most influential women of her day and a staunch proponent of Islam after Muhammad passed on.

Now I know you're not defending this, right? Whether or not we can 'know' the age of Aisha is irrelevant. The prevailing interpretation is that she was prepubescent. I don't give two ****s about context or life expectancy. Marrying someone who isn't old enough to make decisions like that is immoral. It always has been and it always will be.

Dawnofhope · Aug 8, 2019

Dan Mellis said:
Now I know you're not defending this, right? Whether or not we can 'know' the age of Aisha is irrelevant. The prevailing interpretation is that she was prepubescent. I don't give two ****s about context or life expectancy. Marrying someone who isn't old enough to make decisions like that is immoral. It always has been and it always will be.

Interpretations of both history and religious changes with time. The importance of Aisha’s allegedly prepubescence was she was considered a virgin and therefore pure.

It wasn’t so long ago that the minimum age of marriage in some parts of the USA was as young as 10.

During the 19th century, the age of consent in the United States varied between 10 and 16, depending on the state and year. The age of consent was the age when it was determined that a boy or girl -- but most often, a girl -- was capable of consenting to any sexual activity. This does not mean minors often married, however. Although minors could, and still can, marry with parental consent in America, most did not marry so young.

Age of Marriage in the U.S. in the 1800s

Marriageable age - Wikipedia

Dan Mellis · Aug 8, 2019

adrian009 said:
Interpretations of both history and religious changes with time. The importance of Aisha’s allegedly prepubescence was she was considered a virgin and therefore pure.

It wasn’t so long ago that the minimum age of marriage in some parts of the USA was as young as 10.

During the 19th century, the age of consent in the United States varied between 10 and 16, depending on the state and year. The age of consent was the age when it was determined that a boy or girl -- but most often, a girl -- was capable of consenting to any sexual activity. This does not mean minors often married, however. Although minors could, and still can, marry with parental consent in America, most did not marry so young.

Age of Marriage in the U.S. in the 1800s

Marriageable age - Wikipedia

You're still trying to justify marrying children. I'm not interested in what people thought throughout history - they were incorrect. You could use that logic to justify any atrocity. Transatlantic slavery? That's fine, it was moral to them. Sexual abuse in the 80s? It was a different time! The idea that children make good wives because they're virgins is just sickening.

Again, I couldn't care less about historical culture. We've evolved since then and trying to justify their barbarity is just baffling to me

Spirit of Light · Aug 8, 2019

adrian009 said:
Gender segregation exists in most Mosques in the world today where women and men are in seperate spaces or rooms in a Mosque. In some places women can't attend mosques at all.

This has not always been the case and an interesting paper by Nevin Reda, a Muslim woman and Canadian academic explores gender segregation in Mosques in a paper titled: 'Women in the Mosque:Historical Perspectives on Segregation'

https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/46320764/reda-womeninmosque_1_.pdf?response-content-disposition=inline; filename=Women_in_the_Mosque_Historical_Perspect.pdf&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A/20190803/us-east-1/s3/aws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20190803T052540Z&X-Amz-Expires=3600&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=ca4126555a669a0deda408a920c2e59c9e00370bfed53afb09d24f8764f4989f

Nevin Reda - WISE Muslim Women

Her paper deals with the issue of women’s full or partial access to the mosque from 610 - 925 AD. This period is divided into two time frames. The first, 610 - 634 AD, consists mainly of the time in which the Prophet Muhammad was active in Mecca and Medina. The second, 634 - 925 AD, is the period beginning with Umar’s reign to the time when the Hadith literature was written down and set into the well-known compilations.

Nevin Reda argues the Quran is used as a primary source for the first period, whereas the Hadith
literature is used as a primary source for the second period.

From the primary sources available for the first period, there does not appear to be any evidence of segregation; rather the evidence indicates that women had full access to the mosque. In the second period, three trends appear: a pro-segregation trend, an anti-segregation trend, and a trend that sought to prohibit women from going to the mosque altogether.

The Quranic verses which address the interaction of men and women in the social context include:

Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity: this will be most conducive to their purity – (and,) verily, Allah is aware of all that they do. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity, and not to display their charms beyond what may be apparent thereof; hence let them draw their veils over their bosoms and do not show their adornments except to their husbands or their fathers or their husbands' fathers or their sons or their husbands' sons or their brothers or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons or their women or what their right hands possess or male servants free of sexual desires or those children who never knows the private things of women; and do not stamp their feet so that it may show their hidden adornments; and repent towards God collectively O believers so that you may succeed.

Qur'an, Sura 24 (An-Nur), ayat 27-31[10]

O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

Qur'an, Sura 33 (Al-Ahzab), ayat 59[11]

So should women and men remain segregated in mosques in this modern age? Is it any business of non-Muslims whether they do or they don't? Isn't it for Muslims to decide themselves?

I not sure segregation is the best way to behave within any religious house of worship, And i think both male and female can learn from each other, but I don't know the details within Islamic beliefs about this topic.
Maybe this issue for muslims are mostly a "man" problem?

stvdv · Aug 8, 2019

adrian009 said:
I don’t see any of what Muhammad taught as anti women. To the contrary He lifted the status of women, perhaps as far as possible for tribal society in the 7th century. Forbidding the practice of infanticide is an excellent example.

That makes sense. Good thought. Evolution goes very slow, God should know

. So it's kind of "pearls before swines" to give highest wisdom to barbarians. Baby steps is possible at best. Now 700 years later, maybe time for new baby steps. Considering this makes it almost obvious to understand that one's own Scripture can't be the only correct one for all times, because different cultures need different instructions and creation is ever evolving.

Wasp · Aug 8, 2019

Dan Mellis said:
Now I know you're not defending this, right? Whether or not we can 'know' the age of Aisha is irrelevant. The prevailing interpretation is that she was prepubescent. I don't give two ****s about context or life expectancy. Marrying someone who isn't old enough to make decisions like that is immoral. It always has been and it always will be.

And condemning something you don't understand is moral?

Dan Mellis · Aug 8, 2019

Wasp said:
And condemning something you don't understand is moral?

I understand it enough.

Dude marries young girl. Girl isn't old enough to understand this fully.

Condemning immoral acts isn't immoral, and I'd argue that marrying a 9 year old girl is immoral, regardless of what culture the act is set in. Do you condone modern Muslims marrying girls that young?

SugarOcean · Aug 8, 2019

adrian009 said:
We need to distinguish what Muhammad taught from the behaviour of Muslims. Remember Christianity has a history of appalling behaviour from those bearing Christ’s name. At one time they justified themselves with the Bible only to be condemned by Christians of a subsequent age.

There is enough hate for Christians here. This thread is about segregation in Mosques.
If you want to start a discussion about the evils of Christianity you're free to do so. But derailing threads is a habit that occurs far too often in discussions.

Dawnofhope · Aug 8, 2019

SugarOcean said:
There is enough hate for Christians here. This thread is about segregation in Mosques.
If you want to start a discussion about the evils of Christianity you're free to do so. But derailing threads is a habit that occurs far too often in discussions.

Who says anything about hating Christians? There are clear parallels between the way both Christianity and Islam have developed. Both have a history of gender discrimination that is independent of anything their Founders taught. Its entirely reasonable to highlight the parallel in response to post #122 that is typical anti-Muslim Christian apologetics.

SugarOcean · Aug 8, 2019

adrian009 said:
Who says anything about hating Christians? There are clear parallels between the way both Christianity and Islam have developed. Both have a history of gender discrimination that is independent of anything their Founders taught. Its entirely reasonable to highlight the parallel in response to post #122 that is typical anti-Muslim Christian apologetics.

No, it is not. And the claim of parallel in response to post 122, my post, is a blatant slander and misrepresentation of the truth of my post.

This is your thread that asked a pointed question. Now you derail it to bring in Christianity and its history. As if there's a semblance of comparison when there is not. Islam arrived on the scene nearly 600 years after Christ. The prophet of Islam was an illiterate Arab merchant who was a murderer, a rapist, a pedophile, and a thief.
Islam teaches that its god Allah had no son.
Again, not one iota of comparison to Christianity when the God of Judeo-Christianity did have a son, Emmanuel, (God with us), aka/ Jesus the Christ.
Not one iota of comparison to the Messiah of Christianity.

The hatred I referred to , "here", referred to this community. Not your thread, just to clear that up.

Dawnofhope · Aug 8, 2019

Amanaki said:
I not sure segregation is the best way to behave within any religious house of worship, And i think both male and female can learn from each other, but I don't know the details within Islamic beliefs about this topic.
Maybe this issue for muslims are mostly a "man" problem?

Thanks for your comment. What has become clear through this thread is Islam is not the only religion that enforces segregation of women in their main places of worship. Orthodox Jews now make this mandatory in the USA. Some Christian Churches apparently segregate too. I'm not aware of any segregation with Buddhist or Hindu sects though wouldn't be surprised if there were smaller minority groups that adhered to such practices. It would be reasonable to presume that most communities have a religious hierarchy that is male dominated. So it appears likely age old practices are perpetuated more by men than women. Places of worship are also places of religious instruction and learning.

It does make sense be able to incorporate the experience of the opposite sex as part of that learning and that is certainly the inclusivity that is part of the community of the majority of faith adherents in the West during these modern times.

Muffled · Aug 13, 2019

Shad said:
That does not apply to people outside the US. Hence why I can not sue Canada over breaching 2a. My point does not prohibit it. It just denies immigration claims based on importing backwards ideas. We have plenty already here.

Ibelieve the person deciding this is judging another person's beliefs when there is no justification for such judgement.

Muffled · Aug 13, 2019

Dan Mellis said:
I'd argue that it isn't. I don't hate religion or religious people, but I am strongly opposed to harm caused by religion (or any other flawed logic).

No, a bigoted version of this would be "no, all mosques should be closed and all religion should be banned". I'm all for mosques and religion, but not when it causes harm to others.

I believe I can understand how loving ones neighbor can be considered a harmful teaching. How is a person going to hate people with that kind of awful teaching?

Muffled · Aug 13, 2019

stvdv said:
The Ashram I was, they had the girls 500 meters away from us. Was good in the beginning, while I had less concentration to have them 500m away

How you phrased it, I can only conclude that you were only distracted from the teaching because you were more into girls than into the Bible

I believe that is true but without the motivation of having girls present I probably wouldn't have been there in the first place and it didn't take me long to lose interest. There are ministries that use motivation more effectively ie The Methodist Church in my home town held dances. I had no problem attending that church because I was already comfortable there.

Should Men and Women be Segregated in Mosques?

Should men and women be segregated in Mosques?

Yes

No

I don't know

Its not for me to comment as I'm not a Muslim

This poll doesn't reflect my thinking

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