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Blaming the innocent...
- Thread starter Evangelicalhumanist
- Start date
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
You marked my post as "funny"... you indicated you were amused by what I wrote.
It was clear enough, you laugh at infinite harm.
What else?
Anyone who worships a beast-god who has created or permitted to be created, infinite suffering?
Is as much a sociopath as the monster they worship.
Your thinking is funny.
What part of "Hell was not created for man" did you not understand? Are you sure it is "infinite suffering" or simply man's interpretation? I don't rejoice in anyone going to jail for wrong.. but are you saying that if someone goes to jail it is the judges fault? Or the people who built the jails fault?
What part of "For God so loved the world" don't you understand?
When did Jesus send more suffering to anyone? Did he give suffering to ANYONE? Or did he come to destroy the works of the devil?
which finally brings me to the thought of "What is Bob the Unbeliever's real issue?" since it is obvious that it has nothing to do with God.
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David J
Member
You're heard, my friend.
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
And your "thinking" is sociopathic. How on earth can you consider Infinite Harm to be remotely justified?
That is pretty sick, even for a nominal "christian"... but you think infinite harm is ... FUNNY?
What part of the bible are you pulling this fantasy-delusion from? Jesus himself said people go directly to hell.
It would appear you are making up something, in order to avoid the responsibility of believing in a Grossly Immoral Idea.
The bible makes it clear enough: Endless Suffering is spelled out in multiple versions of the unholy bible.
Your comment above does not match with your other comments where you are laughing. Including this very post I'm quoting.... ! It would seem that you do find it amusing to torture some poor schlob forever...
Not the same thing-- neither the judge nor the jail-builders have Infinite Power.
Worse: Going to Jail is Finite. Eventually, even if it's a Life Sentence, you get relief by dying.
You are comparing Apples to Airplanes: Your immoral god uses Infinite Torture-- making it a terrorist. Which YOU think... IS FUNNY.
He "loves" you.... riiiiight.... so he creates Infinite Hell, in case you don't "love" him back?
THAT IS BEING A BULLY-- Pure-D extortion.
Jesus? What a laugh-- he had a mildly unpleasant weekend. Big Deal. When you are IMMORTAL? "DYING" IS A PIFFLE.
My real issue ought to be plain enough: Any human being who would be against Torture? Of any sort?
Is more moral than your god.
Any human who would never permit someone else to suffer, because they failed to follow arbitrary and poorly written rules? Is more moral than your god.
Any human who would stop any rape, murder or abuse of a child, if they were able?
IS MORE MORAL THAN YOUR GOD-- WHO'S PRINCIPLE ATTRIBUTE IS ONE OF DOING NOTHING MEASURABLE.
In fact? Your god's behavior is 100% indistinguishable from no god at all.
Yet, this do-nothing thing would torture forever anyone who refuses to bow down like a slave and stroke it's massively bloated ego.
IMMORAL.
so as not to make your rant an endless circle of half baked quotes and statements:
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the deviland his angels;
Now, maybe if you can blame man for what man does and stop having a victim mentality of blaming someone else for their own actions....
Jesus didn't come but to give life and that more abundantly.
But in order to say what you say, you must of necessity ignore the totality of Jesus's words: "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." Do you notice that little word "all" in that verse? As near as I can tell, you are ignoring it. I will agree that it's inconvenient, in the context in which I framed my question, but there it is nonetheless.
Let's go back to the Exodus, for a moment. God, who had "surely heard" the people groaning in slavery in Egypt for 400 years wanted Moses to lead them out, yes? So, to prove to the Egyptians that he was as mighty as he liked to think of himself, he started sending plagues. First turning all the water to blood, so the fish all died and stank, and there was no water to drink. Then the frogs, then the flies (or whatever "creatures" were meant). These last could do harm, but only harmed the Egyptians, so Pharaoh said, "take this plague away and I will release the people."
Well, you'd think that would be that, but God seems to have been enjoying aggravating the Egyptians (most of whom, by the way, were not Pharaoh, and were not, therefore, guilty of what Pharaoh was doing to the people). So God "hardened Pharaoh's heart. God did that. God wanted the game to go on for a while, since he hadn't had to show off all his tricks yet.
And so on through plague after plague, and every time Pharaoh pleads "stop, and I'll let the people go," God intervenes to "harden Pharaoh's heart. And the direct result of that was that God got to show off his greatest conjuring trick of all -- the ability to kill, from a distance, only those who were first born, either of people, or of animals. How many innocent people and animals died because this insane deity wanted to show off?
I said in another thread that when you do not have the direct experience of hardship, suffering, enslavement, discrimination, persecution, and yes, murder, your next best resource is a "moral imagination." And I can't think how a person with a moral imagination can ever worship the god of the Bible.
I never cease to be amazed by those who can't conceive of substance being either "self-creating" or possibly always existent, but have zero problem at all imagining a deity who not only can be those seemingly impossible things, but also complex enough to have desires, designs, intelligence, rules and much, much more.
"Well," says the theist, "after all, a quantum fluctuation couldn't happen by itself, but obviously a mighty powerful deity, with an architecture of a universe and the rules for how it will eventually work, well, surely that MUST exist."
And if it must, says this doubter, why then, why should there not be 10, or a trillion, or an infinite number of them?
This is, surely, one of the things that leaves me most perplexed, this ability to A) proclaim a thing to be impossible, and then immediately B) proclaim that something else has this impossible characteristic, and that's how to overcome A.
InChrist
Free4ever
I think you need to read the account again without you hostile preconceived ideas. God was in no way showing off. It was just the opposite as Pharaoh was worshiped as a god in Egypt. He believed himself to ba a god and repeatedly thought he could exert power and authority over the Creator of heaven and earth. The passage exposes the evil heart of Pharaoh. As far as the rest of the " innocent Egyptians" you point to, they were worshiping this evil Pharaoh. Yet, if there were any innocent people then God would have made a way of escape or protection for them because He always does. That is the pattern shown in the scriptures.
Why Pharaoh's Heart Grew Hard | The Bible Project
You seem to have forgotten what I wrote to you several days ago, about the difference between exegesis and eisegesis. And this is an absolutely perfect example of the latter. Look, all I had to do was read the first couple of sentences from your "Bible Project," and here they are:
"Pharoah is not one single king in Exodus. If you pay attention, you’ll see that this royal title refers to a sequence of Egyptian kings over many generations. It raises the interesting question of why the author doesn’t actually name the Pharaoh who opposed Moses (was he Thutmose II or III, or Ramses I or II?). This was almost certainly on purpose. The author doesn’t want us to focus on one single king. Rather, he wants us to see Pharaoh as an archetype of the pattern of human rebellion that began in the garden and culminated in Babylon (Genesis 3-11)"
Not a single word of all of that can be found in Bible. It has all been "read in," and you can see this most clearly when the author(s) write "this was almost certainly on purpose." He doesn't know this at all, but would like you to accept it so that he can get on with his thesis. And I challenge you to show me -- from the text -- how "this royal title refers to a sequence of Egyptian kings over many generations." It is NOT THERE. IT IS MADE UP, INVENTED OUT OF WHOLE CLOTH. It's a deliberate attempt to mislead, to hide what the author(s) don't want you to see.
Sorry, it's spurious nonsense.
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
Nice bit of editing you did there. I'll take a card from YOUR playbook:
You are taking it out of context.
Regardless? The fact your god created such a thing in the first place--regardless of it's reasons?
IS PURE EVIL.
InChrist
Free4ever
I am not ignoring the word "all". The disciples who were contemporaries of Jesus did not see all the signs He spoke of, so He was referring to a future generation at the end of the age who would see all those signs take place. This generation, the ones who will be alive to see all the signs, the beginning to the final signs which will usher in the end of the age and His return.
Eisegesis again...you know what you believe, you read the text, you interpret it through your own beliefs, regardless of what is actually in the text or not. This cannot ever lead to understanding of what the author was concerned with, it only serves to support your own viewpoint.
I don't think so.
This is what God has for mankind...
John 14:2-4 King James Version (KJV) 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Psalm 23 King James Version (KJV) 23 The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. 2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. 3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
So, I am quite satisfied that God has plans for good and not evil:
But you don't have to live there if you don't want to.
InChrist
Free4ever
What is it you believe the author is trying to hide?
Biblical scholars also do historical research when doing commentaries on passages of the scriptures. Historical information reveals that "Pharaoh" was a title and position in Egypt which was held by different kings ruling different dynasties over the generations.
Pharaoh
25 Famous Pharaohs | Great Pharaohs Of Ancient Egypt
InChrist
Free4ever
Actually, I think the text is quite clear. For one thing, the scriptures often have prophetic passages with partial or duel fulfillment. Since Jesus was speaking to the first disciples who were Jewish believers, I believe the passage revolves around Israel. I believe partial fulfillment did occur in 70 AD and complete fulfillment occurs at the end of the age as Jesus states when all the signs take place and a major one being Israel back in the land.
I'm not quite so stupid that I don't understand that. I merely point out that that is NOT what is happening in the story in Exodus. You cannot possibly tell me that we're dealing with multiple Pharaohs, covering literally centuries, and all the while dealing with the very same Moses, who is engaged in a battle of will with all of them. I repeat what I said, too much reading in, in order to get to the answer already desired. It is dishonest.
InChrist
Free4ever
I am not insinuating you are stupid. I am sorry. I didn't really catch the part that the author meant to say Moses was dealing with multiple Pharaohs, rather than one or I thought he meant that figuratively just as far as what Pharaoh represented "a god". I'll read it again.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
you mean like scientists taking note...…
the universe is MORE than can be seen or tested for
dark energy
dark matter
can't prove them
but they gotta be there
they just HAVE to be
there is no other explanation
we cannot observe
we cannot experiment
but it's real
it MUST be so