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A Question for Theists...

Sunstone

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Here's a question to help theists clarify what sort of evidence, if any, they have for their belief in deity.

"If your god did not exist, how would you be able to know your god did not exist?"

I propose that theists answer the question to their own satisfaction privately, rather than publicly -- and thus open their answer to debate. However, I am putting this thread in debates just in case someone does indeed want to debate their answer.

Hope you're having a good day.


If you are curious, I did not come up with the question myself. It's a standard question that epistemologists working in the field of religion ask themselves and others.
 
Geoff-Allen

Geoff-Allen

Resident megalomaniac
Interesting question ... found this quote at a recent site - may not be entirely ON topic but a little voice told me I should share it -

"Whenever you are confused about why you did something, look for a belief. Beliefs compel you to do what you might otherwise think is stupid. The belief isn't stupid. It's just a belief. Change the belief and you change the behavior. Most people will have no clue that their behavior comes from their own beliefs. They will want to blame others--the president, the economy, their family, friends, childhood, and so on. Blame is easy. It avoids responsibility. Recognizing that all behavior is caused by a belief will help you select better beliefs for yourself. It will also help you understand others."

Joe Vitale

Life's Missing Instruction Manual
 
Sunstone

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
All behavior is caused by a belief? Are you quite sure of that? I asked because I was breathing long before I ever had a believe I ought to breath. In fact, most of what I do on a day to day basis has nothing to do with any beliefs I harbor. I think Joe is pulling your leg.
 
Geoff-Allen

Geoff-Allen

Resident megalomaniac
Sunstone said:
All behavior is caused by a belief? Are you quite sure of that? I asked because I was breathing long before I ever had a believe I ought to breath. In fact, most of what I do on a day to day basis has nothing to do with any beliefs I harbor. I think Joe is pulling your leg.
Click to expand...

Hadn't thought of that perspective. I would say belief influences behaviour - if you truly believe you don't deserve 2 be happy then you won't be.

Beliefs are tricky things - I like the Buddhist advice to stop cherishing opinions.

Trouble is most people - including me as well at times :) - take their opinions quite seriously and have to fight if encountering a different point of view. I think having an "open" mind" about all things is good advice it would change the world if we all did it!

Don't know if I am even vaguely answering the question you posed - that's just how things go sometimes I guess ...

Here's one site that I just found in my travels -

How Keeping An Open Mind Can Improve Your Life, According To Psychology

All the best!
 
Samana Johann

Samana Johann

Restricted by request
Sunstone said:
I was breathing long before I ever had a believe I ought to breath.
Click to expand...
Only because something is habitual, rites and rituals, does not mean that those actions are based just on believe. From where would you know that a beath brings release and asked actually: did the habit ever brought real release?

There is not a single action by common beings that is not based on believe. And certain the most fail to really find release on what ever they believe for their welfare.

Taking birth, existance, is based on believe. The path to go beyound as well.
 
T

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Clarification invited ....
  • Sunstone wrote: "I propose that theists answer the question to their own satisfaction privately, rather than publicly -- and thus open their answer to debate."
  • Me: If I answer the question privately, which you posed publicly, it seems to me that you are proposing that I debate the subject with myself and keep my results to myself, no?
As for the question which you posed, having been rightly corrected by Hockeycowboy, if my God did not exist, neither would I.
 
Last edited:
sun rise

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Sunstone said:
Here's a question to help theists clarify what sort of evidence, if any, they have for their belief in deity.

"If your god did not exist, how would you be able to know your god did not exist?"
Click to expand...

The only evidence I have is internal. I could describe it in metaphor or simile but that's it. Words are inadequate.

I would only know because after death I would not be there to know to be paradoxical. Or perhaps after death the "I" would still be around but with expanded knowledge that there was nothing more.
 
sayak83

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Sunstone said:
Here's a question to help theists clarify what sort of evidence, if any, they have for their belief in deity.

"If your god did not exist, how would you be able to know your god did not exist?"

I propose that theists answer the question to their own satisfaction privately, rather than publicly -- and thus open their answer to debate. However, I am putting this thread in debates just in case someone does indeed want to debate their answer.

Hope you're having a good day.


If you are curious, I did not come up with the question myself. It's a standard question that epistemologists working in the field of religion ask themselves and others.
Click to expand...
I would know that I am completely wrong about my belief and knowledge of God if it turns out that global warming and the current human-induced ecological destruction turns out not be significant concerns in our road towards progress and prosperity in this 21st century.
Of course even if they are actually existential threats as I now believe, it does not automatically mean that my beliefs about God are correct...but that is true for any inductive knowledge claim...you can only either refute it or increase the level of confidence about its truth..but never achieve deductive certainty. So I am OK with that.
 
P

Peter Sawrie

Member
Sunstone said:
Here's a question to help theists clarify what sort of evidence, if any, they have for their belief in deity.

"If your god did not exist, how would you be able to know your god did not exist?"

I propose that theists answer the question to their own satisfaction privately, rather than publicly -- and thus open their answer to debate. However, I am putting this thread in debates just in case someone does indeed want to debate their answer.

Hope you're having a good day.


If you are curious, I did not come up with the question myself. It's a standard question that epistemologists working in the field of religion ask themselves and others.
Click to expand...
The question makes absolutely no sense. How can God, who created all things, be anything but the beginning of all, thus making God eternal: or that is to say without a beginning.
 
PureX

PureX

Veteran Member
Sunstone said:
"If your god did not exist, how would you be able to know your god did not exist?"
Click to expand...
Theism is not based on what anyone knows, or can know about the nature or existence of "God". It is based on the positive result that comes of placing faith in something that we don't know to be so. And that positive result is the "evidence" that the faith, works (not that the God, exists).

Your question is misdirected.
 
atanu

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Sunstone said:
"If your god did not exist, how would you be able to know your god did not exist?"
Click to expand...


My god, brahman, is satyam-jnanam-anantam’ (existence/truth-knowledge-infinity). The self and universe are known because of it. Not the other way around.

...
Bonus point:
To me the question is wrong, as if the ego self is the progenitor and master controller of its cognition process. As if ego self is supposed to know of everything. And as if that which ego self does not cognise does not exist. That we are not aware of our own existence in sleep indicates that the presumption that what ego self does not cognise does not exist is wrong.

Note: I did not come up with the idea of bonus myself.
 
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
Sunstone said:
Here's a question to help theists clarify what sort of evidence, if any, they have for their belief in deity.

"If your god did not exist, how would you be able to know your god did not exist?"

I propose that theists answer the question to their own satisfaction privately, rather than publicly -- and thus open their answer to debate. However, I am putting this thread in debates just in case someone does indeed want to debate their answer.

Hope you're having a good day.


If you are curious, I did not come up with the question myself. It's a standard question that epistemologists working in the field of religion ask themselves and others.
Click to expand...

You cant prove with scientific evidence like proving some chemical transformation works that God exists or doesn't exist. So I don't know how would one know without any faith that either God does or does not exist. All one could do is show that there is no evidence to the existence of God but that's not gonna make a difference.

Theists journey toward Atheism comes from losing faith.
 
A Vestigial Mote

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Hockeycowboy said:
I wouldn't know. I wouldn't anything, because "I" wouldn't exist.

Hebrews 3:4
Click to expand...
This only further entrenches your concept/hypothesis of God within unfalsifiable territory. Which means you have no actual way of scrutinizing your hypothesis - to put it through a process of testing for its accuracy in modeling an aspect of our reality.
 
Sunstone

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Samana Johann said:
Only because something is habitual, rites and rituals, does not mean that those actions are based just on believe. From where would you know that a beath brings release and asked actually: did the habit ever brought real release?

There is not a single action by common beings that is not based on believe. And certain the most fail to really find release on what ever they believe for their welfare.

Taking birth, existance, is based on believe. The path to go beyound as well.
Click to expand...

Sounds to me like you are very confused and hence, unable to express your views with clarity.
 
Sunstone

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
A Vestigial Mote said:
This only further entrenches your concept/hypothesis of God within unfalsifiable territory. Which means you have no actual way of scrutinizing your hypothesis - to put it through a process of testing for its accuracy in modeling an aspect of our reality.
Click to expand...

Quite correct. Too bad we cannot "double up" the winner rating.
 
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