Sex before marriage?????

Trailblazer · Aug 5, 2019

ecco said:
First off, my comment was addressed to a Christian.

Nevertheless, Bahais, who try to get you to believe that all gods are just one and that he sends prophets to earth to tell people about himself, completely disavow the writings of the prophet who wrote Genesis. That's very convenient.

No prophet wrote Genesis, it was written by men.
Nevertheless, whatever was written in the past can always be changed by God in the future, because God is omnipotent and omniscient. So even what Baha'u'llah wrote can be changed when the next prophet appears.

ecco said:
If God tells us that we are to disbelieve what the prophets wrote 6000 years ago, then we must conclude that He will also tell us to disbelieve what ‎Bahá'u'lláh wrote 200 years ago. Therefore, there is no reason to believe anything that ‎Bahá'u'lláh wrote.

God is not telling us to disbelieve what Moses or the other prophets revealed (not wrote).
In the future, when another prophet is sent by God, whatever that prophet reveals will supersede what Baha'u'llah wrote but the spiritual virtues and divine qualities will always be true, because they are eternal.

“the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things—that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá’u’lláh, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic cycles. It will never be abrogated, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen......

These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, will never be abolished; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity will be renewed in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God—that is to say, the human virtues—disappears, and only the form subsists.

The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries—this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 47-48

Trailblazer · Aug 5, 2019

ecco said:
Y E S

But, at this point, don't even bother.

Okay, but last Friday I saw something in the Preface to The Afterlife Revealed that REALLY lines up....
and I thought of you.

Trailblazer · Aug 5, 2019

ecco said:
Maybe you need to go back and read all your posts regarding psychics, mediums, and Bahai authors regarding your beliefs in heaven and the afterlife to refresh your memory.

You have gone back and forth so often it's ridiculous. That's why, in my previous response, I said just forget it.

My thoughts are not static. I change my position as I read and think about what I read.
After I finished reading Heaven and Hell, I decided to go back and read The Afterlife Revealed again, and it makes sense that it is more accurate than Heaven and Hell for more than one reason. One reason it makes more sense is because it depicts seven spheres or levels rather than just two destinations, heaven and hell; and second, The Afterlife Revealed has much research and input from many people who communicated with the spiritual world whereas Heaven and Hell is based upon one man's spiritual experiences. So if that one man is wrong, the whole book is wrong.

Heaven and Hell is an interesting book, but I do not know if it is accurate so I cannot take it all that seriously as far as what we will actually experience in the afterlife. What I do like about the book is the spiritual principles it sets forth, because those do align with what Baha'u'llah wrote.

Trailblazer · Aug 5, 2019

ecco said:
What's your next cop out going to be. The bottom line is that you had criteria for trusting or not trusting them. Your own criteria show you shouldn't trust them. But, I'll bet you still do.

I do not fully trust anyone except Baha'u'llah.

I think that Tymn is sincere from what he wrote and I think his accounts of the afterlife closely align with what Baha'u'llah did reveal, which was very little... Foe example, Tymn talks about seven spheres or levels to which souls gravitate depending upon their spiritual development, and he says that those souls who are above other souls can see the souls beneath them but those souls who are below cannot see souls above them.... Here is what Baha'u'llah says, which is similar. Keep in mind that grades and stations are the same concept as spheres.

The people of Bahá, who are the inmates of the Ark of God, are, one and all, well aware of one another’s state and condition, and are united in the bonds of intimacy and fellowship. Such a state, however, must depend upon their faith and their conduct. They that are of the same grade and station are fully aware of one another’s capacity, character, accomplishments and merits. They that are of a lower grade, however, are incapable of comprehending adequately the station, or of estimating the merits, of those that rank above them. Each shall receive his share from thy Lord. Blessed is the man that hath turned his face towards God, and walked steadfastly in His love, until his soul hath winged its flight unto God, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Most Powerful, the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 170

Trailblazer · Aug 5, 2019

ecco said:
Such a silly and poorly thought out response.

No, just an honest response, not intended to impress anyone. I have no false pride.

ecco said:
Do you have an agenda to fool people about Bahai? You write about it and defend it constantly here on RF. Is your motive any different from his?

No, I have no agenda. I just honestly represent my beliefs and answer what people ask.

ecco said:
He wrote what he wrote because he was a believer just like you. He was also a believer in and wrote about King Arthur and the Holy Grail. Both of which he believed were real. Do you accept his writings/beliefs on these subjects as well?

Believe whatever you want to about him. I am sure he did not make any money off that little book hardly anyone even knows about and the Baha'i Faith was mentioned only once and tangentially. The Baha'i Faith did not need Pole promoting it, it had so many Baha'is who wrote about it, some of them scholars in the field of religious studies.

Pole did not write Private Dowding because he was a Baha'i. he wrote it because he was a psychic.

Trailblazer · Aug 5, 2019

ecco said:
Right, that's the beauty of the Duck and Dodge strategy. Do it long enough and hope no one will remember the original untruthful comment that started the whole conversation.

I could not care less about you little games. I stopped playing those games of "I'll prove you wrong" after I had been on forums for a while when I realized it was only ego that made me play those games. What a relief it was to be out from under that. I never looked back.

I do not need to prove anything to anyone. Why would I care if people believe me when I know I am telling the truth?

ecco said:
Well, here you just said it again: atheists have told me [you] they would like to believe in God.

In all the days and posts since your first made that assertion, you still cannot support it with any examples.

I am not obligated to find examples for you. If you do not believe me I don't care. I know I don't lie.

ecco said:
Maybe you could get a new email address, sign up with RF with a user name of RagingAtheist and write; "Hi. I am a raging atheist and would really like to believe in God. Can someone please help me!". Then you, as Trailblazer, could point to that comment as proof of your veracity.

Or...
... you could have your atheist friend from your forum jump in here and say hi.

I cannot make my atheist friends from other forums come and post here. That is the truth and if you want to verify it you are welcome to come to my forum and they will tell you. They are begging me to get people from RF to post on my forum but I told them I do not have time to answer all the posts that could engender.

ecco said:
In any case, is there any difference between an atheist saying he would like to believe in God and anyone saying he would like to be able to fly like a bird. Fantasies are usually stated with tongue firmly planted in cheek.

If you want to know what other atheists are saying about liking to believe in God if they had good evidence why not just go and read on the thread I started? That will settle it.
Atheists: Would you like to believe in God if there was good evidence for God?

Trailblazer · Aug 5, 2019

ecco said:
So you can't. Not even one. They are "plastered all over this forum" and you cannot show even one.

Look for them yourself if you want to see them. I stopped doing other people's homework a long time ago.

What you might want to ask yourself is why it matters so much to you if other atheists challenged me to prove that God exists. Any psychologist would have a heyday with this and it would not be very difficult to figure out why it bothers you.

ecco · Aug 5, 2019

Trailblazer said:
No prophet wrote Genesis, it was written by men.
...

God is not telling us to disbelieve what Moses or the other prophets revealed (not wrote).

Who told you that Prophet Moses did not write Genesis? Ballulah?

The Old Prophet is dead. Long live the New Prophet!

That's the way of all upstart religions, disparage the old, sway belief to the new.

As I've said many times, your religion is no different than any of past religions, no matter how much you pretend it is.

BilliardsBall · Aug 5, 2019

ChristineM said:
Rephrase it any way you like, i wont be changing the facts.

But please advise how many of those unwanted pregnancies were the product of sex before marriage.

Why? They could be 1% and would still far outnumber incel suicides.

Basically, you've spent ten posts explaining why people are animals who HAVE to have sex or risk severe health problems--sounds like something teen boys tell their dates!

ChristineM · Aug 5, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
Why? They could be 1% and would still far outnumber incel suicides.

Basically, you've spent ten posts explaining why people are animals who HAVE to have sex or risk severe health problems--sounds like something teen boys tell their dates!

Dont talk garbage. Dont twist what i say. It is insulting, it is ignorant and the false witness commandment does apply to you.

Yes people are animals, fact
My argument is that sex can improve health and is know to be beneficial to health, fact.
You want to argue with medical science then feel free.

dawny0826 · Aug 5, 2019

Riders said:
So different churches and different religions do different things.

However , the Evangelical conservative Christian church many not all have a certain values before marriage rules. I am not picking on Christianity, there are probably other religions who have stricter rules.So if anyone from other religions have certain view points don't be afraid to share them.

It was popular to have Christian parents for while back to pick out the spouse for their child. Also many only date someone if they are going to marry them. Dating around is not accepted.

Many many Christians do not believe ins ex before marriage , and someone do not even believe in touching before marriage!

Christians say statistics prove the loner you wait on sex the better your sex life will be, this maybe true statistics I don't know.

I will say this for me, noway am I getting involved with a man who does not want to touch me before marriage nope!I think having sex before marriage is a good thing for me. I am not waiting and I want to be able to trust my spouse that we are right for each other in bed as well as out.

So whats you belief set on sex before marriage and also how you date? By dating I mean, is dating around ok? Do you select your child's spouse? Do you just date to marry only? If you don't have sex before marriage are you aloud to hold hands hug kiss that type of thing? What about oral sex or 3rd base?

My bodily autonomy has always taken precedence over outdated mandates on chastity. Though encouraged to abstain until marriage, I didn't want to.

When I was in Sunday school as a teen, I was asked to sign the "Wait for Marriage" pledge. I viewed it as being a pledge to myself, first and foremost. I never felt that it was binding. I never felt guilty for having premarital sex.

My Mom was a conservative, Southern Baptist when I was growing up. She was always open with me about her experiences. I knew that my Mom loved Jesus more than anything. It was reflected in everything that she did. I also knew that my Mom had sex with my Dad before marriage. She didn't present it as a positive or a negative thing. She was no less a devout Christian.

By her example, I put two and two together that there were certain decisions in life that were mine to make and I had a responsibility to myself to act as intelligently as possible if I were to make those decisions.

I viewed abstinence as an option with pros and cons. I viewed the risks of pregnancy and STDs to have greater weight than any impact on my spirituality.

Sex for me, even young, was a spiritual experience in and of itself. I don't regret it. Each experience helped to form me into the woman that I am.

I've tried to lead by my Mom's example with my own daughters.

Riders · Aug 5, 2019

Well personally I with a porn addiction am not ready to be involved with a man. Because I was addicted to lust and sensuality I have limits as to what I can do with a man once I get involved. I do not know that i will ever want to have intercourse again. I can do some sexual stuff if its me giving the pleasure, but I can not participate in orgasms myself.

So I may end up alone the rest of my life anyways, but maybe I will find a platonic friendship along the way or an older man who can deal with my situation. I can give sexual pleasure to a man but not interested in receiving it. But if I find someone I will not wait to get married to be physical. I am not sure I even trust any man enough to marry him, I would rather move in with him or have him move in with me.

Once you get married the other person has rights to my finances. Anyways, no i don't find it necesary to get married. I get nervous watching these Investigation Discovery episodes on people who got killed by getting into the wrong marriage.

Trailblazer · Aug 5, 2019

ecco said:
Who told you that Prophet Moses did not write Genesis? Ballulah?

No, Baha'u'llah did not say that. Jewish posters on other forums conceded to that and I also researched it on the internet. I tend to go with scholars rather than religious traditions, especially since there is no verifiable evidence that indicates Moses penned the OT in His own hand.

Tradition credits Moses as the author of Genesis, as well as the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and most of Deuteronomy, but modern scholars increasingly see them as a product of the 6th and 5th centuries BC.
Book of Genesis - Wikipedia

ecco said:
The Old Prophet is dead. Long live the New Prophet!

That's the way of all upstart religions, disparage the old, sway belief to the new.

Baha'u'llah did not disparage any older religions. He only said that men have corrupted their scriptures, and indeed, men have done a bang-up job of that. Obviously, if God revealed a new religion to all of humanity, God wants everyone to turn towards that religion. It is impossible to have peace and world unity as long as people cling to their older religions. History demonstrates that quite well.

I hardly call this disparaging any previous Manifestations of God. However, their missions on this earth have long since been accomplished so it makes no sense to live in the past. God's Will and Purpose for this age was revealed by Baha'u'llah.

“Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 59-60

ecco · Aug 6, 2019

ecco said:
Who told you that Prophet Moses did not write Genesis? Ballulah?

Trailblazer said:
No, Baha'u'llah did not say that. Jewish posters on other forums conceded to that and I also researched it on the internet. I tend to go with scholars rather than religious traditions, especially since there is no verifiable evidence that indicates Moses penned the OT in His own hand.

It's interesting how religious people pick and choose.

The folks at the following sites all say Moses wrote (or at least compiled from eyewitness tablets) Genesis.
Who Wrote the Book of Genesis?
Did Moses really write Genesis - creation.com
The Tablet Theory of Genesis Authorship

You, like all religious people, decide what is true in scripture and what is allegory.
You, like all religious people, decide which experts to trust and which to dismiss.

You even go by what "Jewish posters on other forums" believe.

That's why there are thousands of Christian sects and that's why in 1000 years there will be hundreds of Bahai sects (If Bahai even lasts that long).

ecco · Aug 6, 2019

ecco said:
If God tells us that we are to disbelieve what the prophets wrote 6000 years ago, then we must conclude that He will also tell us to disbelieve what ‎Bahá'u'lláh wrote 200 years ago. Therefore, there is no reason to believe anything that ‎Bahá'u'lláh wrote.

Trailblazer said:
In the future, when another prophet is sent by God, whatever that prophet reveals will supersede what Baha'u'llah wrote but the spiritual virtues and divine qualities will always be true, because they are eternal.

Trailblazer said:
Nevertheless, whatever was written in the past can always be changed by God in the future, because God is omnipotent and omniscient. So even what Baha'u'llah wrote can be changed when the next prophet appears.

You confirmed my point:

"whatever was written in the past can always be changed by God in the future"
"whatever that prophet reveals will supersede what Baha'u'llah wrote".

You, yourself admit that that means that whatever Ballulah wrote 150 years ago may be changed by God in the future. Perhaps that means that the writings of Joseph Smith supersede those of Ballulah.

Ballulah wrote that God told him that there would not be another Messenger for 2000 years. How do you know that God didn't change His mind and send Joseph Smith to set the record straight? After all, what Joseph Smith wrote was copied/translated from Golden Tablets that were delivered by an actual angel.

BilliardsBall · Aug 6, 2019

ChristineM said:
Dont talk garbage. Dont twist what i say. It is insulting, it is ignorant and the false witness commandment does apply to you.

Yes people are animals, fact
My argument is that sex can improve health and is know to be beneficial to health, fact.
You want to argue with medical science then feel free.

No you're just using ad homs and slander. I didn't lie--you've made the case that abstinence doesn't work.

I said "teaching abstinence" isn't what I said, I said, "abstinence". Abstinence IS 100% effective against unplanned pregnancy, broken hearts, STDs. Someone who cares about breaking the poverty cycle, for example, might well advocate abstinence for young people trying to get through school without the above.

You've made very bizarre (to me) statements that people have to f%$# or die. Baloney.

ChristineM · Aug 6, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
No you're just using ad homs and slander. I didn't lie--you've made the case that abstinence doesn't work.

I said "teaching abstinence" isn't what I said, I said, "abstinence". Abstinence IS 100% effective against unplanned pregnancy, broken hearts, STDs. Someone who cares about breaking the poverty cycle, for example, might well advocate abstinence for young people trying to get through school without the above.

You've made very bizarre (to me) statements that people have to f%$# or die. Baloney.

Maybe you dont want it to work, that is your problem, i have provided links to validate my comments, you have denied the medical evidence while you have provided emotional argument and misnaming feotus's.

You are assuming those who engage in premarital sex are somehow ignorant, its a very condescending attitude.

The biggest cause of STDs, unwanted pregnancies etc is poor sex education. I already provided statistical maps of America showing the areas of highest incidence... The bible belt,. Education is the key, if you are against education them please be honest enough to admit it rather than wasting 2 weeks on emotional bull.

Please show me where i have made such statements.

ecco · Aug 6, 2019

Trailblazer said:
I can tell you that on the other forums I go on and even on this forum, atheists have told me they would like to believe in God if they had evidence. One of my best atheist friends on my forum even wondered why I would ask such a silly question. He wondered why I thought that anyone would NOT want to believe in God IF they had enough evidence.

ecco said:
Well, here you just said it again: atheists have told me [you] they would like to believe in God.

In all the days and posts since your first made that assertion, you still cannot support it with any examples.

Trailblazer said:
I am not obligated to find examples for you. If you do not believe me I don't care. I know I don't lie.

OK Don't call it lying. It's just you making statements designed to stroke your ego. It makes you feel better about your religious views if you can convince yourself that everyone feels the same way. So you just say stuff that you cannot support because it is unsupportable.

Trailblazer · Aug 6, 2019

ecco said:
It's interesting how religious people pick and choose.

The folks at the following sites all say Moses wrote (or at least compiled from eyewitness tablets) Genesis.
Who Wrote the Book of Genesis?
Did Moses really write Genesis - creation.com
The Tablet Theory of Genesis Authorship

You, like all religious people, decide what is true in scripture and what is allegory.
You, like all religious people, decide which experts to trust and which to dismiss.

You even go by what "Jewish posters on other forums" believe.

Frankly, I do not care who wrote Genesis or what is true in scripture and what is allegorical or which experts to trust and which to dismiss, because none of this matters now. The Dispensation of the Bible has been abrogated by the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, so these things are of no more importance in this new age...

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.

We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

Trailblazer · Aug 6, 2019

ecco said:
You confirmed my point:

"whatever was written in the past can always be changed by God in the future"
"whatever that prophet reveals will supersede what Baha'u'llah wrote".

You, yourself admit that that means that whatever Ballulah wrote 150 years ago may be changed by God in the future. Perhaps that means that the writings of Joseph Smith supersede those of Ballulah.

Ballulah wrote that God told him that there would not be another Messenger for 2000 years. How do you know that God didn't change His mind and send Joseph Smith to set the record straight? After all, what Joseph Smith wrote was copied/translated from Golden Tablets that were delivered by an actual angel.

The writings of Joseph Smith cannot supersede those of Baha’u’llah because Smith came before Baha’u'llah.

Nothing Baha’u’llah wrote can be superseded until a NEW Manifestation of God comes, and that can be no sooner than 2852 AD.

God does not change His mind, God just sends new Messengers who reveal God’s will for the age in which they appear.

Sex before marriage?????

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"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.

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