What is your issue with Democratic Socialism?

Epic Beard Man · Aug 5, 2019

I'm no political scientist nor am I completely knowledgeable about politics, but I do know that if I subscribe to something I research it.

Very few people on this board as well as offline are informed on politics, political terms, and the agenda of political candidates.

When it comes to being a Democratic socialist, quite often people dismiss the socialist part and assume it means communism when complete Socialism is not Democratic. This is what Bernie Sanders advocates but far too often his views are conflated with communism.

Considering that we have socialist policies in place and considering we live in a Democratic republic, what is your issue with Democratic Socialism?

Shiranui117 · Aug 5, 2019

Epic Beard Man said:
I'm no political scientist nor am I completely knowledgeable about politics, but I do know that if I subscribe to something I research it.

Very few people on this board as well as offline are informed on politics, political terms, and the agenda of political candidates.

When it comes to being a Democratic socialist, quite often people dismiss the socialist part and assume it means communism when complete Socialism is not Democratic. This is what Bernie Sanders advocates but far too often his views are conflated with communism.

Considering that we have socialist policies in place and considering we live in a Democratic republic, what is your issue with Democratic Socialism?

Public works and welfare are not Socialist. Every single country in the world has had public works, regardless of their economic system. Democratic Socialism advocates the complete abolition of private enterprise in favor of a state-controlled economy wherein the government owns all businesses in every sector, and it inevitably leads to authoritarianism and the suppression of freedoms of speech and religion. East Germany is an example of Democratic Socialism--nominally "democratic", but in reality only the Socialist Party is allowed to win.

Epic Beard Man · Aug 5, 2019

Shiranui117 said:
Public works and welfare are not Socialist. Every single country in the world has had public works, regardless of their economic system. Democratic Socialism advocates the complete abolition of private enterprise in favor of a state-controlled economy wherein the government owns all businesses in every sector, and it inevitably leads to authoritarianism and the suppression of freedoms of speech and religion. East Germany is an example of Democratic Socialism--nominally "democratic", but in reality only the Socialist Party is allowed to win.

Shiranui117 · Aug 5, 2019

Epic Beard Man said:

With all due respect, that's not a definition of what the Democratic Socialist economic-political system is. What Bernie Sanders admires is not Democratic Socialism (Socialism with the illusion of democracy), but Social Democracy (Capitalism with a conscience). All the wealthy nations of the European Union function under a Social Democratic system, not under a Democratic Socialist one.

Social democracy - Wikipedia

The political party "Die Linke" in Germany is an example of Democratic Socialism. The political parties CDU and SPD in Germany are examples of Social Democracy.

Augustus · Aug 5, 2019

Shiranui117 said:
Democratic Socialism advocates the complete abolition of private enterprise in favor of a state-controlled economy wherein the government owns all businesses in every sector,

No it doesn't. State controlled economy is Marxist-Lenninist style communism.

Democratic Socialism is does not generally advocate a centrally planned economy, but decentralised ownership via collectives (and even this may exist as part of a market economy).

Shiranui117 said:
East Germany is an example of Democratic Socialism--nominally "democratic", but in reality only the Socialist Party is allowed to win.

No it wasn't. It was Marxist-Lenninist style communism.

Epic Beard Man · Aug 5, 2019

Shiranui117 said:
With all due respect, that's not a definition of what the Democratic Socialist economic-political system is. What Bernie Sanders admires is not Democratic Socialism (Socialism with the illusion of democracy), but Social Democracy (Capitalism with a conscience). All the wealthy nations of the European Union function under a Social Democratic system, not under a Democratic Socialist one.

Social democracy - Wikipedia

I know what social democracy is and that is a common argument many conservatives use against him. Bernie is about taking special interest groups out of the political system. Bernie is about free healthcare for people and free college.

The aspect of what Democratic Socialism is, is about political democracy and socially owned economy.

Shiranui117 · Aug 5, 2019

Epic Beard Man said:
I know what social democracy is and that is a common argument many conservatives use against him. Bernie is about taking special interest groups out of the political system. Bernie is about free healthcare for people and free college.

The aspect of what Democratic Socialism is, is about political democracy and socially owned economy.

Neither of those things are inherent to Democratic Socialism. Social Democratic countries also have those. Except, it's not "free"--you still make health insurance payments to the regional health insurance office every month. You just have no bills at the hospital for operations, and they cover up to a certain amount for medical equipment; if you want a piece of medical equipment above the standard set by the government, you have to pay the difference.

Free college in America will never work as long as 70% of Americans continue to go there. The only reason that low-cost and free university in Europe is possible is because only around 30% of Europeans go to university; there are enough other people to offset their costs.

Source: I lived in Austria for 2 years.

leov · Aug 5, 2019

Epic Beard Man said:
I'm no political scientist nor am I completely knowledgeable about politics, but I do know that if I subscribe to something I research it.

Very few people on this board as well as offline are informed on politics, political terms, and the agenda of political candidates.

When it comes to being a Democratic socialist, quite often people dismiss the socialist part and assume it means communism when complete Socialism is not Democratic. This is what Bernie Sanders advocates but far too often his views are conflated with communism.

Considering that we have socialist policies in place and considering we live in a Democratic republic, what is your issue with Democratic Socialism?

The problem always was that to many leaders on all levels looked to take advantage of the system.

Rival · Aug 5, 2019

Shiranui117 said:
Neither of those things are inherent to Democratic Socialism. Social Democratic countries also have those. Except, it's not "free"--you still make health insurance payments to the regional health insurance office every month. You just have no bills at the hospital for operations, and they cover up to a certain amount for medical equipment; if you want a piece of medical equipment above the standard set by the government, you have to pay the difference.

Free college in America will never work as long as 70% of Americans continue to go there. The only reason that low-cost and free university in Europe is possible is because only around 30% of Europeans go to university; there are enough other people to offset their costs.

Source: I lived in Austria for 2 years.

Around half of young people in England attend University.

Valjean · Aug 5, 2019

Shiranui117 said:
Public works and welfare are not Socialist. Every single country in the world has had public works, regardless of their economic system. Democratic Socialism advocates the complete abolition of private enterprise in favor of a state-controlled economy wherein the government owns all businesses in every sector, and it inevitably leads to authoritarianism and the suppression of freedoms of speech and religion. East Germany is an example of Democratic Socialism--nominally "democratic", but in reality only the Socialist Party is allowed to win.

Public works and welfare are socialist, as are publicly funded police and fire departments.

We have a choice: public services by private, for-profit businesses independent of public control or oversight, or co-operative, transparent, non-profit public services, controlled and regulated by those they serve?

All "societies" are "socialist," it's just a matter of degree. People form societies for their mutual benefit, there is a social contract. But a certain segment seeks to better itself at the expense of the rest of society. If not thwarted you get tyranny, monarchy, aristocracy and corporatism.

Are we a society, or a market? Does the government serve the people, or corporate interests?
Are public services only for those who can afford them?

Revoltingest · Aug 5, 2019

Valjean said:
Public works and welfare are socialist, as are publicly funded police and fire departments.

Those aren't the means of production though.
Definition of socialism | Dictionary.com

noun
a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
(in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism,characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

"Democratic Socialism" & "Social Democracy" are poor name choices.
In both cases, people are typically advocating capitalism.
So these systems should be differentiated from socialism, which excludes
capitalism.
In my broken record imitation....
Better names are "Social Capitalism" & "Welfare Capitalism".

I wonder why they eschew the word, "capitalism"?
Is it analogous to fundies & sex, ie, they see that it's useful,
& might even like it, but the tribe must ostensibly hate it.

Nakosis · Aug 5, 2019

Epic Beard Man said:
I'm no political scientist nor am I completely knowledgeable about politics, but I do know that if I subscribe to something I research it.

Very few people on this board as well as offline are informed on politics, political terms, and the agenda of political candidates.

When it comes to being a Democratic socialist, quite often people dismiss the socialist part and assume it means communism when complete Socialism is not Democratic. This is what Bernie Sanders advocates but far too often his views are conflated with communism.

Considering that we have socialist policies in place and considering we live in a Democratic republic, what is your issue with Democratic Socialism?

Personal responsibility, and distrust of the government to be able to handle social issues. I feel the more responsibility/power given to the government, the more potential there is for corruption.

Most people are biased/prejudice, not that I'm judging, it is just the way people are. They are simply more likely to favor whatever group they identify with. The government is made of individuals, the more power/control/responsibility they have over the lives of others, the less likely they are going to be fair in the equal distribution of that power/control/responsibility.

Also I think it is better to encourage people to look after their own affairs as much as possible instead of encouraging them to let others look after their affairs for them. The more power/control/responsibility one has over their own life the better, IMO.

pearl · Aug 5, 2019

Shiranui117 said:
Free college in America will never work as long as 70% of Americans continue to go there.

It needs to be specified as for who since there is no reason to pay college tuition for the wealthy. And that has its own sticking point, how we choose to spend what money we do have.

Valjean · Aug 5, 2019

Revoltingest said:
Those aren't the means of production though.
Definition of socialism | Dictionary.com

Fair point, but this isn't the definition the Sanders crowd is working from, it's a straw man. Sanders is more an FDRist than a Marxist.
[

"Democratic Socialism" & "Social Democracy" are poor name choices.
In both cases, people are typically advocating capitalism.
So these systems should be differentiated from socialism, which excludes
capitalism.
In my broken record imitation....
Better names are "Social Capitalism" & "Welfare Capitalism".

There are certain institutions that best serve the public by being public: police, fire, military, EMS, education, healthcare, &c. They're provided (in theory) at cost, and they're (in theory) open to public scrutiny and control.
Other areas, not part of the public commons, are open to private exploitation.

Revoltingest · Aug 5, 2019

Valjean said:
Fair point, but this isn't the definition the Sanders crowd is working from, it's a straw man. Sanders is more an FDRist than a Marxist.
[There are certain institutions that best serve the public by being public: police, fire, military, EMS, education, healthcare, &c. They're provided (in theory) at cost, and they're (in theory) open to public scrutiny and control.
Other areas, not part of the public commons, are open to private exploitation.

Dishonest marketing by Sanders?
Impossible!

Shiranui117 · Aug 5, 2019

Valjean said:
Fair point, but this isn't the definition the Sanders crowd is working from, it's a straw man. Sanders is more an FDRist than a Marxist.

It doesn't matter if Sanders provides an inaccurate definition or a non-definition. We have to look at Democratic Socialism as defined by political scientists. If you want to look specifically at Sanders' political ideology, we can do that, but I'm not going to say that somebody's a member of X ideology just on how they choose to label themselves, because many people don't fully understand the labels they're using.

Shadow Wolf · Aug 5, 2019

It's got that evil "socialist" word in it that those my age and older (and maybe a bit younger) were raised to inherently hate and loathe for no other reason than it being associated with the Ruskies?

Flankerl · Aug 5, 2019

All Communist state parties of the former Warsaw Pact magically became "Democratic Socialist" from 1990 onward.

It's almost as if they changed their costume.

dawny0826 · Aug 5, 2019

Epic Beard Man said:
I'm no political scientist nor am I completely knowledgeable about politics, but I do know that if I subscribe to something I research it.

Very few people on this board as well as offline are informed on politics, political terms, and the agenda of political candidates.

When it comes to being a Democratic socialist, quite often people dismiss the socialist part and assume it means communism when complete Socialism is not Democratic. This is what Bernie Sanders advocates but far too often his views are conflated with communism.

Considering that we have socialist policies in place and considering we live in a Democratic republic, what is your issue with Democratic Socialism?

In the past, I've been close minded to socialism as I viewed socialism, in blanket label terms to be disadvantageous to Middle Class Americans. I was convinced that universal health care would decrease the quality of my family's health care and that free college would excessively tax me at the benefit of others.

Then, Trump became President. The greed and self righteousness of men and women in my life that I had previously respected was spotlighted through their support of Trump and seeming obsession with his ability to fatten their wallets.

I realized that taxing them a little more bothers me way less than fellow Americans having access to free or reduced cost services for improved health & opportunities.

I decided that I care more about the have-nots and their well being than I do my own tax return. I figured that I couldn't possibly pay in taxes more than what I'm paying in health care premiums and deductibles. If my taxes are raised without benefit to myself and my family, so be it. If it lowers overall costs for Americans and improves the outlook for America's future, why would I want to fight it?

I guess I now see compassion and practicality in socialism that I didn't see before. If it works the way it's designed to, it is equitable.

I feel pulled to support that which is the most kind and presents with as much semblance to love as possible.

I will be voting for a Democrat for the first time ever in 2020.

Shiranui117 · Aug 5, 2019

dawny0826 said:
In the past, I've been close minded to socialism as I viewed socialism, in blanket label terms to be disadvantageous to Middle Class Americans. I was convinced that universal health care would decrease the quality of my family's health care and that free college would excessively tax me at the benefit of others.

Then, Trump became President. The greed and self righteousness of men and women in my life that I had previously respected was spotlighted through their support of Trump and seeming obsession with his ability to fatten their wallets.

I realized that taxing them a little more bothers me way less than fellow Americans having access to free or reduced cost services for improved health & opportunities.

I decided that I care more about the have-nots and their well being than I do my own tax return. I figured that I couldn't possibly pay in taxes more than what I'm paying in health care premiums and deductibles. If my taxes are raised without benefit to myself and my family, so be it. If it lowers overall costs for Americans and improves the outlook for America's future, why would I want to fight it?

I guess I now see compassion and practicality in socialism that I didn't see before. If it works the way it's designed to, it is equitable.

I feel pulled to support that which is the most kind and presents with as much semblance to love as possible.

I will be voting for a Democrat for the first time ever in 2020.

"the way it's designed to" is the operating phrase there. There's a reason every country that has tried socialism has ended up in the toilet. No system with humans in it ever works perfectly as planned. Capitalism is controlled chaos, and sure, we're in an atrocious corporatist phase right now where corporations are treated like people with more than equal rights, but that's not the way things used to work, and we can still fix this. I'll be supporting some Democrats in the primaries myself, but I won't just cast a presidential ballot for any old person with a D next to their name.

What is your issue with Democratic Socialism?

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