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Anti Science

Bear Wild

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
usfan said:
Western culture has had a lot of ups & downs over the last couple of centuries, but the anchor for it was the concept of an orderly world:

1. Consistency in natural law
2. Use of the scientific method
3. The logical pursuit of truth
4. Peer review, critical thinking, & skepticism were a balance to 'science by decree'.

These concepts reached their heyday in post ww2 America. Engineers & scientific researchers leapfrogged advancement after advancement, dazzling everyone with their ability to harness natural law as a tool.

But to some, these things were not seen as harnessing the laws of physics, but a creative & almost godlike power. A mystique built up around the fields of engineering & science, & it was a magnet to young people when they pursued a career. The fields of technology were major draws in the middle of the last century in America. Breakthroughs in medicine, manufacturing, computers, & just about every part of human life has been positively affected by these technological advances, & families encouraged their children to be part of that growth & advancement of humanity.

The technological advances brought unprecedented prosperity & luxurious conditions for even the poorest in the nation. And as often has happened throughout history, with prosperity comes complacency & growing lethargy. Hard work loses its appeal, & easy living seems to be the preferred route. Why work hard if you don't have to? The Entitlement culture was born.

And, as the culture has declined, so has the magnet for technology. Fewer & fewer American youth desire a career in science or engineering. Non productive elements of society have taken center stage. Sports, entertainment, celebrity worship, money shuffling.. these things are valued & esteemed over the mundane & difficult scientific disciplines.

Now, we are in a time of Anti Science. Social issues & cultural manipulation is taking place, of course, claiming truth or science as a basis. But instead of open scrutiny, mandates. Instead of the scientific method, decree. Instead of logic & critical thinking, truth is declared & propaganda has become the method of 'instruction'.. Truth becomes what the establishment says, rather than something based on reason or facts. Critical thinking is not encouraged, just memorized dogma. History is not taught as dispassionate facts, but to mold a belief. Conclusions are presupposed, & memorized, instead of arrived at by research & thinking. THIS is the greatest failure of American education, which once was a beacon of classic liberal thought.. Now, it is just another state propaganda tool.

Thoughts or rebuttals?
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For such an expert on science as you are, you do not seem to grasp science very well. Why not?
 
shunyadragon

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Polymath257 said:
Overall, I agree.

So the best thing to do is leave the science to the scientists and keep the politicians out of it.

We should let the teaching of science be determined by the consensus of the scientific community and not be based on what politicians approve of to win favor with their constituents.

Let's see what the actual scientists say and base our policies on that information instead of politicizing the science by denying the results when we disagree with them and promoting them when we do.

And we can look to the main scientific organizations to give the sense of their membership on important topics. But we may also have to hear that there is no known answer to questions we deeply want to know the answer to.
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Overall, I disagree. The opening post gy @usfan clearly misrepresents science as science.
 
Quintessence

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Interesting story.

As with all stories, there are other ways to tell it. I do not doubt many would disagree that Western culture was at all anchored by the things you name. Alongside the things you list, we had other cultural movements that inspired many people. Those movements, rather than the worship of science, was their center. Don't get me wrong, the Myth of Progress is extremely popular in Western culture. But there are also many narratives that tell a different story. I can't help, for example, to notice how you overlook the costs of so-called "advancement" in the way you tell the story. That you consider non-science to be "unproductive" in this story is also very telling. The way you tell the story is an expression of your values. Nothing more, nothing less. There is value in that, but it should not be taken as more than it is.
 
shunyadragon

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I believe knowledge contains elements of 'truth,' with some things that may be considered relatively true based on objective verifiable evidence, but even in science things are considered falsafed and not true in any sense, because with new knowledge the elements of 'truth' value may change.
 
shunyadragon

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Orbit said:
You might find this interesting. Some data on Americans' confidence in scientists:
Trust and Mistrust in Americans’ Views of Scientific Experts
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Interesting, but given that the majority of lay people view science through the biased eye of religious beliefs, layman literature and in general lack of an advanced knowledge of the science they do not have faith in, but they use and trust , computers, technologically advanced cars and appliances, jet airplanes, and medicine among the vast applied technological world based on science.

My experience is that I seriously question and do not have much faith in the general lay public concerning their confidence and knowledge of science, which is at best superficial for most lay people.
 
shunyadragon

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
leov said:
That is why I said 'immature', they perfectly knew what would happen but let that death free to roam the world.
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'Knew it would happen' is problematic. For example it was only after Einstein developed the Theory of Relativity that he realized its potential, and sent letters warning of the consequences of the potential use of the knowledge Actually the advances of the basic sciences are inevitable based on the progressive advances of science leading to Einstein's work. I made and documented this case concerning Charles Darwin's proposal of the science of evolution in another thread. The knowledge basic sciences evolves and advances through the efforts of science as a whole and not individuals. Based on the vast evolving knowledge in physics, and not individuals, it was inevitable that the Theory of Relativity would be falsified by someone. The application of the applied sciences are the responsibility of fallible human motives, and is a matter of human maturity and motives.

This a question of whether humanity is 'mature or not' and not a matter of whether science is mature or not. The concept of what is mature or not is an anthropomorphic concept of the fallible nature of humans and not science.

It is abundantly obvious that the anti-science view of @usfan is very immature to the extreme along with other anti-science views of Fundamentalist Christianity.
 
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Ellen Brown

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
I am not sure if it is America or the whole of the World, but the spirit of hedonism seems to prevail. And there is this ludicrous idea that a good Christian will enjoy a happy, prosperous life. If one studies the Bible, the devout seem to suffer a lot. For me Religion and Science are inextricably intertwined. I am sad for those who do not see that.
 
leov

leov

Well-Known Member
shunyadragon said:
'Knew it would happen' is problematic. For example it was only after Einstein developed the Theory of Relativity that he realized its potential, and sent letters warning of the consequences of the potential use of the knowledge Actually the advances of the basic sciences are inevitable based on the progressive advances of science leading to Einstein's work. I made and documented this case concerning Charles Darwin's proposal of the science of evolution in another thread. The knowledge basic sciences evolves and advances through the efforts of science as a whole and not individuals. Based on the vast evolving knowledge in physics, and not individuals, it was inevitable that the Theory of Relativity would be falsified by someone. The application of the applied sciences are the responsibility of fallible human motives, and is a matter of human maturity and motives.

This a question of whether humanity is 'mature or not' and not a matter of whether science is mature or not. The concept of what is mature or not is an anthropomorphic concept of the fallible nature of humans and not science.

It is abundantly obvious that the anti-science view of @usfan is very immature to the extreme along with other anti-science views of Fundamentalist Christianity.
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Fundamentalist Christianity amounts to a few good jokes... What about desire for nuclear weapons?
 
ChristineM

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
leov said:
Fundamentalist Christianity amounts to a few good jokes... What about desire for nuclear weapons?
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The two countries with the biggest arsenal on nuclear weapons just happen to be very religious countries.
 
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