TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
So that was the best you could do in reply of what I said, ha?
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God did it
- Thread starter mikkel_the_dane
- Start date
So that was the best you could do in reply of what I said, ha?
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
1) they were honestly mistaken
2) they lied to make it sound more impressive, to gather and/or keep followers
3) through oral tradition, the story got accumulatively embelished to sound more interesting
Seriously, it's not like we don't have precendents of superstitious beliefs being invented out of thin air and subsequently quickly spread out, no matter the social price paid by the "believers".
The bigger, more important, point from the post you were replying to however:
ANY explanation which does NOT require assuming the impossible to have happened - ALWAYS more likely then the explanation which DOES require assuming that the impossible happened.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Thor, Visjnoe, Quetzalcoatl, Baal, Apollo, Jupiter,... all "appeared to though via their ambassadors" as well. But you don't seem incredibly impressed by that either.
ecco
Veteran Member
For the same reason that people all around the world saw Elvis Presley after he died?
Because if it was good enough for other deities, it must have happened to Jesus.
Resurrection - Wikipedia
Taking a more positive position, Tryggve Mettinger argues in his recent book that the category of rise and return to life is significant for the following deities: Ugaritic Baal, Melqart, Adonis, Eshmun, Osiris and Dumuzi.[10]
Alternatively, the soldier guards were paid off to look away for a few minutes and Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John cut down the still alive Jesus and transported him to a land of milk and honey where he lived happily ever after with Mary (your choice).Taking a more positive position, Tryggve Mettinger argues in his recent book that the category of rise and return to life is significant for the following deities: Ugaritic Baal, Melqart, Adonis, Eshmun, Osiris and Dumuzi.[10]
ecco
Veteran Member
That is even more garbled than your usual posts. What documents? Be specific.
What documents? Be specific.
ecco
Veteran Member
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
No, but your attitude hardly demands my best.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
1) They were mistaken when Matthew noted 98 prophecies fulfilled? When Paul said "If Jesus isn't alive from the dead--if He didn't appear to me--I've been beaten and imprisoned too many times to count for no reason"? 12 different authors, from among who knows how many disciples, were honestly mistaken in risking expulsions from the synagogue and Jewish life and Roman martyrdom?
2) They lied to risk extreme poverty and persecution? Then the 12 authors lied but did or didn't collaborate their accounts?
3) The oral traditions embellished stories while living writers recorded, so that locals couldn't defeat their embellishments?
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
These are some of my notes on the subject.
Is Israel In God’s Plan?
“…As for you [Ezekiel], lie down…for the number of days…three hundred and ninety days (for Israel’s sin)…When you have completed these…I have assigned it to you for forty days (for Judah’s sin)…a day for each year.”—Ezekiel 4:4-6
Did God Err In The Bible?
606 BC …Judah/Israel taken captive to Babylon
536 BC …Cyrus allows return to Israel
…So, only 70 years of 430 fulfilled? (Atheists point out with glee this scripture came up empty)
"Seven Times Punishment"
“…And if by these things [sins] you are not turned to Me, but act with hostility against Me, then I will act with hostility against you; and I, even I, will strike you seven times for your sins.”—Leviticus 23:23-24
Ezekiel “Counts”
70 years of captivity
430 – 70 (captivity) = 360 years left
360 x 7 (times punishment) = 2,520 years
Going from the date in history (recorded in the Bible and outside the Bible also) of the Babylonian diaspora = May 15, 1948 AD! (Israel born in a day by decree of United Nations, this occurred at 12:01 AM or April 15 in Gentile reckoning; the Jewish date began at sundown or dark the night before)
Longer look:
+ Leviticus 26:14-46 says Israel will pay seven times over for disobedience
…If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
Ezekiel 4:1-8 demonstrate 430 days/years of punishment in captivity/”scattered” for disobedience
«NOW you son of man, get yourself a brick, place it before you and inscribe a city on it, Jerusalem.
2
«Then lay siege against it, build a siege wall, raise up a ramp, pitch camps and place battering rams against it all around.
3
«Then get yourself an iron plate and set it up as an iron wall between you and the city, and set your face toward it so that it is under siege, and besiege it. This is a sign to the house of Israel.
4
«As for you, lie down on your left side and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel on it; you shall bear their iniquity for the number of days that you lie on it.
5
«For I have assigned you a number of days corresponding to the years of their iniquity, three hundred and ninety days; thus you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.
6
«When you have completed these, you shall lie down a second time, but on your right side and bear the iniquity of the house of Judah; I have assigned it to you for forty days, a day for each year.
7
«Then you shall set your face toward the siege of Jerusalem with your arm bared and prophesy against it.
8
«Now behold, I will put ropes on you so that you cannot turn from one side to the other until you have completed the days of your siege.
in 606 BCE; Judah/Israel was transported away from home—Cyrus conquered Babylon after 70 years and said return in 536 BC, yet only 50,000 devout Jews returned (Jeremiah 25:11 mentions these 70 years’ captivity about which Daniel prayed for wisdom as their end approached)
taking 430 minus 70 years of warning/captivity equals 360 years (multiplied times seven for punishment of Leviticus) = 360 x 7 x 360 [days] or 907,200 days from Cyrus’ decree to May 15, 1948 AD…when Israel was declared a nation!!!
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Yes. That, and/or the other 2 possibilities + more unmentioned ones.
Each religion has its "testimonies" and "miraculous early believers" and what not dude. Christianity really isn't special in that respect.
And besides that, these are just words. Claims.
You missed the point being made there.
You are aware that oral tradition preceeded anyone writing that stuff down for at least 70 years and extending to at least 200 years later, right?
Biggest point you missed however: all those possibilities.... MUCH more plausible / probable / likely then the laws of nature actually having been violated and/or suspended.
Also, your insistence on how these "believers risked it all" as if it is supposed to convince me, is a self-defeating argument.
All it shows is that at best they REALLY REALLY believed it with a great passion. That does not make their beliefs true.
Plenty of people willingly die or are prepared to die and suffer for their beliefs all the time.
So unless you also wish to agree that the existance of islamic suicide bombers must mean that fundamentalist islam is correct, I suggest you let that argument go.
Truthfully, this is a very good example why numerology has a bad reputation.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
HOLD THE PHONE. Not one atheist scholar in the world claims the Bible was written 200 years after Jesus. How can we even debate any of this?
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Your response to "The Bible predicted May 15, 1948 for the restoration of Israel after 2,500 years" is "wow, numerology sucks"?
Epic, epic, epic, epic... fail.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
No, I am saying that if you work hard enough, you can make any random list of numbers come out to a desired result. Numerology like what you gave is twisting until you get a desired result, NOT following from the clear meaning of the words.
Wandering Monk
Well-Known Member
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Except in this case, two figures only are given, multiplying one by the other than changing to Gregorian yields May 15, 1948. Explain.
Yes, that's called "twisting until you get a desired result."
The argument isn't that numerology sucks(it does) but that you're terrible at it(and you are.)
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Where/what was twisted, specifically? I presented the numbers, you made an accusation. Can you help me by verifying?