Enough To Make Fair-Minded Christians Sick To Their Stomachs

A Vestigial Mote said:

"Tenure?" Why do I get the feeling you're going to hit me with even more hardcore "conspiracy against the spiritual realm" talk?

Once again... ANYONE can conduct scientific experiments. Anyone. Are you seriously going to apply a universal statement yourself to the idea that NONE of those people are willing to expose any of their supernatural findings - as in, actually share it with people? Which, if it is compelling, and reproducible/reliable and can readily be digested by others, should be no problem. Are you saying that it is possible to scientifically study or empirically define/test/measure the "supernatural," and yet no one has gotten the word out? Because that's where we sit. There is nothing reliably detectable, readily measurable, etc. that has been communicated by ANYONE who purports to study the "supernatural." NOTHING. If there is, please share!

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Let's walk through this, I'll be honest, you respond honestly:

1) The Bible says God reveals Himself solely at this time to individuals seeking Him
2) I find this a universal--I've never met a former-believer-turned-atheist who says "I had a relationship with Jesus" but rather, "I liked this church for a while" or "I studied the Bible a long time first," etc.
3) Further, God hides Himself from scoffers--something I've likewise found true not some of the time but all of the time
4) The many scientists who say they are in touch with God would be unable to provide empirical proof that would be accepted by scoffers

That addresses the issue. I can testify to you I've seen the supernatural, encountered miracles, healings, etc. but have neither the desire to be scoffed at nor the ability to perform magic upon the demand of a skeptic.

What proof I think is empirical is 2,000 pages of testimony from reliable authors who prove both accurate and 100% prescient! That's enough--says the Bible.

BilliardsBall said:

Let's walk through this, I'll be honest, you respond honestly:

Click to expand...

I will respond honestly from my own perspective and understanding of matters, yes.

BilliardsBall said:

1) The Bible says God reveals Himself solely at this time to individuals seeking Him

Click to expand...

Rationale like this abounds for God's behavior under certain circumstances. And the ideas in this vein are along the lines of "You have to be a believer to get validation/evidence." - which stands in direct opposition to the nature of our current existence, within which we do not generally just adopt belief of anything and everything without someone first demonstrating the truth of it. Historically things were different, and people would believe things like tales of "werewolf attacks" or believe someone's words about a count who lived in the manor on the hill who sucks the blood out of his victims. And those sorts of things are readily accepted by most people these days to be fabrications and fiction. The lights are on now, and we don't see werewolves, nor vampires. We don't just accept others' accounts of those things, telling us that they are real. We've put those days behind us. And yet here we are, with some people saying that you have to believe first in order to receive evidence. That is simply an unfair proposition in my opinion, no matter how you slice it.

BilliardsBall said:

2) I find this a universal--I've never met a former-believer-turned-atheist who says "I had a relationship with Jesus" but rather, "I liked this church for a while" or "I studied the Bible a long time first," etc.

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I would have to imagine you haven't talked to all that may former-believers then. There are plenty of people (now atheist) who will relay that they sincerely believed. That they argued as vehemently and as steadfastly as you do time and time again. People who hailed as Christian for 10, or 20 years in some cases, and were devout, devoted, and were "on the mission" to spread the word. Look up Matt Dillahunty or Tracie Harris if you want the account of some of the more famous ones I can think of.

BilliardsBall said:

3) Further, God hides Himself from scoffers--something I've likewise found true not some of the time but all of the time

Click to expand...

Being 100% honest - this sounds like a simple excuse to wave away any "scoffers" opinions, and discredit them in any argument. No matter what the "scoffer" says, you can just say "Well... God is hiding himself from you because you scoff." And then you think you're off the hook for having to produce anything credible. It's sickening, honestly. It's sickening if it is the truth - to think that God would behave this way toward someone He supposedly wants to "save", and sickening if it is false because it means that the delusion is entirely complete and air-tight - you now have an excuse for anything and everything, and never have to listen to anyone's words against your position again. Take it away, and there is no inconsistency or poor behavior on anyone's part that needs to be explained. You don't have to explain why God is such a terrible father, who refuses to answer even simple questions to anyone who isn't already patting Him on the back, and you don't have to explain away why you feel the need to demean "scoffers" by claiming they are unworthy of the special knowledge you claim to possess.

BilliardsBall said:

4) The many scientists who say they are in touch with God would be unable to provide empirical proof that would be accepted by scoffers

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Thank you for admitting this, though I also believe that it is a loaded statement. You're basically saying that the standard of evidence is set too high, and that we should accept any of the myriad "witness" testimonies, stories of personal experience, writings of The Bible, very loosely retro-fitted "prophetic" outcomes, possibly numerology (among other very tenuous things) and just forget the fact that no one can demonstrate the truth of any of the claims to any reliable degree. If calling out for God produces results sometimes and not others, then the "results" you have supposedly gotten are not worth cataloging. And it isn't nearly the same as calling out to some Earthly figure who has chosen to ignore you - because in that scenario, you at least verify their existence, whether or not they heard you, or should have been able to hear you, and assess why it is they may be actively trying not to respond. Not only this, but God doesn't appear and tell you that you are on the right track, nor does He appear and tell you when you are on the wrong track. And so you get no feedback in this "system" except secretive rewards and punishments. Your car doesn't start in the morning, or you trip on your afternoon walk, or a tornado hits your house - and then you sit there and wonder what you did to upset God. If I behaved that way with my kids and didn't give them adequate explanation and feedback, then my children should (rightly) be taken from my custody - because in that behavior I would be unfit to parent by any worthwhile standard.

BilliardsBall said:

That addresses the issue. I can testify to you I've seen the supernatural, encountered miracles, healings, etc. but have neither the desire to be scoffed at nor the ability to perform magic upon the demand of a skeptic.

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And there is the problem. We have to simply take your word for everything that you have witnessed. I'm not in the business of doing that. If I were, I probably would have bought quite a few bridges in my time. And sure, after I had "bought" them, I could tour my friends around, showing them all the bridges I own... and when they told me I didn't own them, I could then decide never to tell anyone about my ownership again, because they all just mock and scoff at me... but it doesn't make me any more the owner of those bridges, now does it?

BilliardsBall said:

What proof I think is empirical is 2,000 pages of testimony from reliable authors who prove both accurate and 100% prescient! That's enough--says the Bible.

Click to expand...

What I said earlier about "very loosely retro-fitted "prophetic" outcomes", applies again here as my very honest opinion. I have never once heard a "prophecy" read from The Bible matched to real-world scenarios/happenings and felt that it was an air-tight prediction-to-event account. Not even close. There is always a huge element of ambiguity, a huge dose of interpretation, and most often quite a few gigantic leaps where entire points are just skipped over, or brushed under the rug. And here's where you would tell me that I just don't know enough about The Bible, or I am not reading it correctly, or "of course you wouldn't see it, because you're a nonbeliever" - or any other excuse you can think of to get yourself out of the predicament you will invariably find yourself in. This stuff just isn't strong enough as a category of "evidence." It's not. And it gets weaker by the year, the decade, the century, etc.

A Vestigial Mote said:

I will respond honestly from my own perspective and understanding of matters, yes.

Rationale like this abounds for God's behavior under certain circumstances. And the ideas in this vein are along the lines of "You have to be a believer to get validation/evidence." - which stands in direct opposition to the nature of our current existence, within which we do not generally just adopt belief of anything and everything without someone first demonstrating the truth of it. Historically things were different, and people would believe things like tales of "werewolf attacks" or believe someone's words about a count who lived in the manor on the hill who sucks the blood out of his victims. And those sorts of things are readily accepted by most people these days to be fabrications and fiction. The lights are on now, and we don't see werewolves, nor vampires. We don't just accept others' accounts of those things, telling us that they are real. We've put those days behind us. And yet here we are, with some people saying that you have to believe first in order to receive evidence. That is simply an unfair proposition in my opinion, no matter how you slice it.

I would have to imagine you haven't talked to all that may former-believers then. There are plenty of people (now atheist) who will relay that they sincerely believed. That they argued as vehemently and as steadfastly as you do time and time again. People who hailed as Christian for 10, or 20 years in some cases, and were devout, devoted, and were "on the mission" to spread the word. Look up Matt Dillahunty or Tracie Harris if you want the account of some of the more famous ones I can think of.

Being 100% honest - this sounds like a simple excuse to wave away any "scoffers" opinions, and discredit them in any argument. No matter what the "scoffer" says, you can just say "Well... God is hiding himself from you because you scoff." And then you think you're off the hook for having to produce anything credible. It's sickening, honestly. It's sickening if it is the truth - to think that God would behave this way toward someone He supposedly wants to "save", and sickening if it is false because it means that the delusion is entirely complete and air-tight - you now have an excuse for anything and everything, and never have to listen to anyone's words against your position again. Take it away, and there is no inconsistency or poor behavior on anyone's part that needs to be explained. You don't have to explain why God is such a terrible father, who refuses to answer even simple questions to anyone who isn't already patting Him on the back, and you don't have to explain away why you feel the need to demean "scoffers" by claiming they are unworthy of the special knowledge you claim to possess.

Thank you for admitting this, though I also believe that it is a loaded statement. You're basically saying that the standard of evidence is set too high, and that we should accept any of the myriad "witness" testimonies, stories of personal experience, writings of The Bible, very loosely retro-fitted "prophetic" outcomes, possibly numerology (among other very tenuous things) and just forget the fact that no one can demonstrate the truth of any of the claims to any reliable degree. If calling out for God produces results sometimes and not others, then the "results" you have supposedly gotten are not worth cataloging. And it isn't nearly the same as calling out to some Earthly figure who has chosen to ignore you - because in that scenario, you at least verify their existence, whether or not they heard you, or should have been able to hear you, and assess why it is they may be actively trying not to respond. Not only this, but God doesn't appear and tell you that you are on the right track, nor does He appear and tell you when you are on the wrong track. And so you get no feedback in this "system" except secretive rewards and punishments. Your car doesn't start in the morning, or you trip on your afternoon walk, or a tornado hits your house - and then you sit there and wonder what you did to upset God. If I behaved that way with my kids and didn't give them adequate explanation and feedback, then my children should (rightly) be taken from my custody - because in that behavior I would be unfit to parent by any worthwhile standard.

And there is the problem. We have to simply take your word for everything that you have witnessed. I'm not in the business of doing that. If I were, I probably would have bought quite a few bridges in my time. And sure, after I had "bought" them, I could tour my friends around, showing them all the bridges I own... and when they told me I didn't own them, I could then decide never to tell anyone about my ownership again, because they all just mock and scoff at me... but it doesn't make me any more the owner of those bridges, now does it?

What I said earlier about "very loosely retro-fitted "prophetic" outcomes", applies again here as my very honest opinion. I have never once heard a "prophecy" read from The Bible matched to real-world scenarios/happenings and felt that it was an air-tight prediction-to-event account. Not even close. There is always a huge element of ambiguity, a huge dose of interpretation, and most often quite a few gigantic leaps where entire points are just skipped over, or brushed under the rug. And here's where you would tell me that I just don't know enough about The Bible, or I am not reading it correctly, or "of course you wouldn't see it, because you're a nonbeliever" - or any other excuse you can think of to get yourself out of the predicament you will invariably find yourself in. This stuff just isn't strong enough as a category of "evidence." It's not. And it gets weaker by the year, the decade, the century, etc.

Click to expand...

I didn't say "believe to receive" for evidence. I said "seekers". Open-minded inquirers. You've gone to much trouble above to tell me what I shouldn't even inquire into the Bible or the supernatural. You've made some logical points, but logic is metaphysical and doesn't exist, right?

I believe God is hiding from scoffers. Why? Because they consistently behave as the Bible presciently predicts they would, because their arguments are false, etc. Sorry, but honesty is the best policy here.

And no--I've yet to encounter an atheist who EVER said, "I used to have a relationship with Jesus!" which is different than the usual, "I prayed hard but nothing magical happened," or "I really liked this church I used to attend," or "My parents told me about Jesus but He's not real."

"[v]ery loosely retro-fitted "prophetic" outcomes..."

Absolutely not. That would be a horrible, dishonest choice for me as an intellectual. I would instead point you to specific, measurable, literal, timed prophecies of the Bible proving the author is prescient. Maybe you should start there? For example, where you wrote, "I have never once heard a "prophecy" read from The Bible matched to real-world scenarios/happenings and felt that it was an air-tight prediction-to-event account. Not even close. There is always a huge element of ambiguity, a huge dose of interpretation, and most often quite a few gigantic leaps where entire points are just skipped over, or brushed under the rug." I'm shocked you've never heard the Bible predicts the 1948 CE restoration of Israel!!!

BilliardsBall said:

I didn't say "believe to receive" for evidence. I said "seekers". Open-minded inquirers. You've gone to much trouble above to tell me what I shouldn't even inquire into the Bible or the supernatural. You've made some logical points, but logic is metaphysical and doesn't exist, right?

I believe God is hiding from scoffers. Why? Because they consistently behave as the Bible presciently predicts they would, because their arguments are false, etc. Sorry, but honesty is the best policy here.

And no--I've yet to encounter an atheist who EVER said, "I used to have a relationship with Jesus!" which is different than the usual, "I prayed hard but nothing magical happened," or "I really liked this church I used to attend," or "My parents told me about Jesus but He's not real."

"[v]ery loosely retro-fitted "prophetic" outcomes..."

Absolutely not. That would be a horrible, dishonest choice for me as an intellectual. I would instead point you to specific, measurable, literal, timed prophecies of the Bible proving the author is prescient. Maybe you should start there? For example, where you wrote, "I have never once heard a "prophecy" read from The Bible matched to real-world scenarios/happenings and felt that it was an air-tight prediction-to-event account. Not even close. There is always a huge element of ambiguity, a huge dose of interpretation, and most often quite a few gigantic leaps where entire points are just skipped over, or brushed under the rug." I'm shocked you've never heard the Bible predicts the 1948 CE restoration of Israel!!!

Click to expand...

It doesn't.
I find it bizarre and dishonest that you keep repeating that at this point.

BilliardsBall said:

I didn't say "believe to receive" for evidence. I said "seekers". Open-minded inquirers. You've gone to much trouble above to tell me what I shouldn't even inquire into the Bible or the supernatural. You've made some logical points, but logic is metaphysical and doesn't exist, right?

Click to expand...

Logic is A LOT more present in our lives and interactions than any sort of God. Let's not kid ourselves here.

BilliardsBall said:

I believe God is hiding from scoffers. Why? Because they consistently behave as the Bible presciently predicts they would, because their arguments are false, etc. Sorry, but honesty is the best policy here.

Click to expand...

It is so, so, so easy for me to imagine that the people who wrote The Bible, before they wrote it, first tried to go around talking about why people should follow their prescriptions, or believe in their particular stories, etc. And do you know what they might have encountered? Why... a bunch of people who didn't believe them, needed more than just their words and accounts, etc. So, OF COURSE they had a good idea how a "Scoffer" might react, and OF COURSE they might use their clever little minds to write into their texts that the texts are proved correct when people react "THIS WAY" - with "THIS WAY" being EXACTLY how anyone who opposed them reacted. This little piece of "evidence" of yours is nothing. absolutely NOTHING.

BilliardsBall said:

And no--I've yet to encounter an atheist who EVER said, "I used to have a relationship with Jesus!" which is different than the usual, "I prayed hard but nothing magical happened," or "I really liked this church I used to attend," or "My parents told me about Jesus but He's not real."

Click to expand...

Again - look up videos with Matt Dillahunty or Tracie Harris, regarding their previous beliefs. You will have found exactly what you're saying doesn't exist. Or rather... what you are extremely afraid to find out actually exists. That is... a person who believed as strongly as you do who is now a nonbeliever.

"[v]ery loosely retro-fitted "prophetic" outcomes..."

BilliardsBall said:

Absolutely not. That would be a horrible, dishonest choice for me as an intellectual. I would instead point you to specific, measurable, literal, timed prophecies of the Bible proving the author is prescient. Maybe you should start there? For example, where you wrote, "I have never once heard a "prophecy" read from The Bible matched to real-world scenarios/happenings and felt that it was an air-tight prediction-to-event account. Not even close. There is always a huge element of ambiguity, a huge dose of interpretation, and most often quite a few gigantic leaps where entire points are just skipped over, or brushed under the rug." I'm shocked you've never heard the Bible predicts the 1948 CE restoration of Israel!!!

Click to expand...

Nice try. You know for a fact that people WHO KNEW THE PROPHECY, worked specifically to take action in order to fulfill the prophecy. That forcibly makes this "fulfilling of prophecy" INDISTINGUISHABLE from people just working to "fulfill" the prophecy themselves because they find themselves with the chance. Were the exact date or circumstances of the fulfillment written in The Bible? How about the actors - the nations and people involved? Were they mentioned? Now THAT would be some compelling stuff, had it been written 2,000 years ago. But instead, AS I STATED, you have nothing but ambiguity, retro-fitting prophecy to current activities, actively ignoring parts that don't necessarily fit or heavily "interpreting", etc.

SkepticThinker said:

It doesn't.
I find it bizarre and dishonest that you keep repeating that at this point.

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Longer look:



+ Leviticus 26:14-46 says Israel will pay seven times over for disobedience



…If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.



Ezekiel 4:1-8 demonstrate 430 days/years of punishment in captivity/”scattered” for disobedience

«NOW you son of man, get yourself a brick, place it before you and inscribe a city on it, Jerusalem.

2

«Then lay siege against it, build a siege wall, raise up a ramp, pitch camps and place battering rams against it all around.

3

«Then get yourself an iron plate and set it up as an iron wall between you and the city, and set your face toward it so that it is under siege, and besiege it. This is a sign to the house of Israel.

4

«As for you, lie down on your left side and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel on it; you shall bear their iniquity for the number of days that you lie on it.

5

«For I have assigned you a number of days corresponding to the years of their iniquity, three hundred and ninety days; thus you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.

6

«When you have completed these, you shall lie down a second time, but on your right side and bear the iniquity of the house of Judah; I have assigned it to you for forty days, a day for each year.

7

«Then you shall set your face toward the siege of Jerusalem with your arm bared and prophesy against it.

8

«Now behold, I will put ropes on you so that you cannot turn from one side to the other until you have completed the days of your siege.



in 606 BCE; Judah/Israel was transported away from home—Cyrus conquered Babylon after 70 years and said return in 536 BC, yet only 50,000 devout Jews returned (Jeremiah 25:11 mentions these 70 years’ captivity about which Daniel prayed for wisdom as their end approached)



taking 430 minus 70 years of warning/captivity equals 360 years (multiplied times seven for punishment of Leviticus) = 360 x 7 x 360 [days] or 907,200 days from Cyrus’ decree to May 15, 1948 AD…when Israel was declared a nation!!!

A Vestigial Mote said:

Logic is A LOT more present in our lives and interactions than any sort of God. Let's not kid ourselves here.

It is so, so, so easy for me to imagine that the people who wrote The Bible, before they wrote it, first tried to go around talking about why people should follow their prescriptions, or believe in their particular stories, etc. And do you know what they might have encountered? Why... a bunch of people who didn't believe them, needed more than just their words and accounts, etc. So, OF COURSE they had a good idea how a "Scoffer" might react, and OF COURSE they might use their clever little minds to write into their texts that the texts are proved correct when people react "THIS WAY" - with "THIS WAY" being EXACTLY how anyone who opposed them reacted. This little piece of "evidence" of yours is nothing. absolutely NOTHING.

Again - look up videos with Matt Dillahunty or Tracie Harris, regarding their previous beliefs. You will have found exactly what you're saying doesn't exist. Or rather... what you are extremely afraid to find out actually exists. That is... a person who believed as strongly as you do who is now a nonbeliever.

"[v]ery loosely retro-fitted "prophetic" outcomes..."

Nice try. You know for a fact that people WHO KNEW THE PROPHECY, worked specifically to take action in order to fulfill the prophecy. That forcibly makes this "fulfilling of prophecy" INDISTINGUISHABLE from people just working to "fulfill" the prophecy themselves because they find themselves with the chance. Were the exact date or circumstances of the fulfillment written in The Bible? How about the actors - the nations and people involved? Were they mentioned? Now THAT would be some compelling stuff, had it been written 2,000 years ago. But instead, AS I STATED, you have nothing but ambiguity, retro-fitting prophecy to current activities, actively ignoring parts that don't necessarily fit or heavily "interpreting", etc.

Click to expand...

The Jewish people worked to SELF-FULFILL prophecies of their expulsion, martyrdom and persecution, then "timed" Zionism to delay 2 centuries until they could perfectly become a nation by DECREE OF THE UN on May 15, 1948, then SELF-FULFILLED prophecies that six Arab nations would attack?! How is your speech not some kind of alt.right hate speech here?!

Did they self-fulfill these too?

· Israel: 8.5 million people, most of them Jewish, but including opposing groups within Israel, even ones active within the Knesset (Israel’s Parliament)

o Egypt: 95.5 million

o Iran: 80 million

o Iraq: 37 million

o Jordan: 9.5 million

o Lebanon: 6 million

o Saudi Arabia: 33 million

o Syria: 18.5 million

· Totals: Israel’s 8.5 million are surrounded by 280 million militant people (33:1 against)

o There are also Hezbollah militants: 65,000 hardened fighters and Hamas militants: 25,000- 30,000 fighters, plus ISIS and others


· Therefore, we would say the odds looked tough for Israel in all these conflicts:

o Israel’s War of Independence (1947-1949) vs. Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, the Holy War Army and the Arab Liberation Army

o The Sinai War (1956) vs. Egypt, Israel receiving help from the UK and France

o The Six Day War (1967) vs. Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq

o The War of Attrition (1967-1970) vs. Egypt, the Soviet Union, Jordan and the PLO

o The Yom Kippur War (1973) vs. Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Algeria, Morocco, Saudi Arabia and Cuba

o The First Lebanon War (1982-1985) vs. the PLO, Syria, and Lebanon’s Jammoul and Amal

o The Second Lebanon War (2006) vs. Hezbollah

o Operation Cast Lead (2008-2009) vs. Hamas

o Operation Pillar of Defense (2012) vs. Hamas

o Operation Protective Edge (2014) vs. Hamas

Food for Thought: Do you know who won each and all of the above conflicts? Why do you think that is?

BilliardsBall said:

The Jewish people worked to SELF-FULFILL prophecies of their expulsion, martyrdom and persecution, then "timed" Zionism to delay 2 centuries until they could perfectly become a nation by DECREE OF THE UN on May 15, 1948, then SELF-FULFILLED prophecies that six Arab nations would attack?! How is your speech not some kind of alt.right hate speech here?!

Did they self-fulfill these too?

· Israel: 8.5 million people, most of them Jewish, but including opposing groups within Israel, even ones active within the Knesset (Israel’s Parliament)

o Egypt: 95.5 million

o Iran: 80 million

o Iraq: 37 million

o Jordan: 9.5 million

o Lebanon: 6 million

o Saudi Arabia: 33 million

o Syria: 18.5 million

· Totals: Israel’s 8.5 million are surrounded by 280 million militant people (33:1 against)

o There are also Hezbollah militants: 65,000 hardened fighters and Hamas militants: 25,000- 30,000 fighters, plus ISIS and others


· Therefore, we would say the odds looked tough for Israel in all these conflicts:

o Israel’s War of Independence (1947-1949) vs. Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, the Holy War Army and the Arab Liberation Army

o The Sinai War (1956) vs. Egypt, Israel receiving help from the UK and France

o The Six Day War (1967) vs. Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq

o The War of Attrition (1967-1970) vs. Egypt, the Soviet Union, Jordan and the PLO

o The Yom Kippur War (1973) vs. Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Algeria, Morocco, Saudi Arabia and Cuba

o The First Lebanon War (1982-1985) vs. the PLO, Syria, and Lebanon’s Jammoul and Amal

o The Second Lebanon War (2006) vs. Hezbollah

o Operation Cast Lead (2008-2009) vs. Hamas

o Operation Pillar of Defense (2012) vs. Hamas

o Operation Protective Edge (2014) vs. Hamas

Food for Thought: Do you know who won each and all of the above conflicts? Why do you think that is?

Click to expand...

Let's see it then... let's see the texts that put these prophecies into play, and we'll see how well it matches to the real-world history you are trying to fit it to here. I am not going to pretend that I am up-to-snuff on Bible prophecies and the texts you're supposedly referencing with these events/facts/numbers (nor do I know how much these numbers are estimated to produce a nicer, rounder-figured match to whatever "math" is worked out in The Bible). My guess is, however, that what you could provide to me is going to look more like you slicing the corners (or more) off of a square-peg in order to smash it sloppily into a round hole. "Hate speech." Give me a damn break. I don't even have all the facts, and I am not going to pretend that I do. You can guess how much I care whether The Bible can be interpreted to match to current-world events - and as for it being the near perfect match it would need to be for me to accept anything in The Bible as being accurate prophecy - I am placing my bets on that being a "fat" (sarcastically here - meaning roughly zero) chance.

BilliardsBall said:

Longer look:



+ Leviticus 26:14-46 says Israel will pay seven times over for disobedience



…If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.



Ezekiel 4:1-8 demonstrate 430 days/years of punishment in captivity/”scattered” for disobedience

«NOW you son of man, get yourself a brick, place it before you and inscribe a city on it, Jerusalem.

2

«Then lay siege against it, build a siege wall, raise up a ramp, pitch camps and place battering rams against it all around.

3

«Then get yourself an iron plate and set it up as an iron wall between you and the city, and set your face toward it so that it is under siege, and besiege it. This is a sign to the house of Israel.

4

«As for you, lie down on your left side and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel on it; you shall bear their iniquity for the number of days that you lie on it.

5

«For I have assigned you a number of days corresponding to the years of their iniquity, three hundred and ninety days; thus you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.

6

«When you have completed these, you shall lie down a second time, but on your right side and bear the iniquity of the house of Judah; I have assigned it to you for forty days, a day for each year.

7

«Then you shall set your face toward the siege of Jerusalem with your arm bared and prophesy against it.

8

«Now behold, I will put ropes on you so that you cannot turn from one side to the other until you have completed the days of your siege.



in 606 BCE; Judah/Israel was transported away from home—Cyrus conquered Babylon after 70 years and said return in 536 BC, yet only 50,000 devout Jews returned (Jeremiah 25:11 mentions these 70 years’ captivity about which Daniel prayed for wisdom as their end approached)



taking 430 minus 70 years of warning/captivity equals 360 years (multiplied times seven for punishment of Leviticus) = 360 x 7 x 360 [days] or 907,200 days from Cyrus’ decree to May 15, 1948 AD…when Israel was declared a nation!!!

Click to expand...

I've taken a longer look with you on more than one occasion.
It doesn't say what you claim it does and it's all quite vague, like every other prophecy I've seen. If it said something like "Israel will become a sovereign nation on May 14, 1948" and provided some actual details about who would be involved or something, then I'd be impressed. The way it is though ... not so much. Having to do mental gymnastics to make it work, doesn't work.

BilliardsBall said:

The Jewish people worked to SELF-FULFILL prophecies of their expulsion, martyrdom and persecution, then "timed" Zionism to delay 2 centuries until they could perfectly become a nation by DECREE OF THE UN on May 15, 1948, then SELF-FULFILLED prophecies that six Arab nations would attack?! How is your speech not some kind of alt.right hate speech here?!

Did they self-fulfill these too?

· Israel: 8.5 million people, most of them Jewish, but including opposing groups within Israel, even ones active within the Knesset (Israel’s Parliament)

o Egypt: 95.5 million

o Iran: 80 million

o Iraq: 37 million

o Jordan: 9.5 million

o Lebanon: 6 million

o Saudi Arabia: 33 million

o Syria: 18.5 million

· Totals: Israel’s 8.5 million are surrounded by 280 million militant people (33:1 against)

o There are also Hezbollah militants: 65,000 hardened fighters and Hamas militants: 25,000- 30,000 fighters, plus ISIS and others


· Therefore, we would say the odds looked tough for Israel in all these conflicts:

o Israel’s War of Independence (1947-1949) vs. Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, the Holy War Army and the Arab Liberation Army

o The Sinai War (1956) vs. Egypt, Israel receiving help from the UK and France

o The Six Day War (1967) vs. Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq

o The War of Attrition (1967-1970) vs. Egypt, the Soviet Union, Jordan and the PLO

o The Yom Kippur War (1973) vs. Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Algeria, Morocco, Saudi Arabia and Cuba

o The First Lebanon War (1982-1985) vs. the PLO, Syria, and Lebanon’s Jammoul and Amal

o The Second Lebanon War (2006) vs. Hezbollah

o Operation Cast Lead (2008-2009) vs. Hamas

o Operation Pillar of Defense (2012) vs. Hamas

o Operation Protective Edge (2014) vs. Hamas

Food for Thought: Do you know who won each and all of the above conflicts? Why do you think that is?

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Yes, the creation of Israel was a self-fulfilling "prophecy." Human beings worked to make it happen.
I'm not sure how pointing out that fact constitutes some kind of "hate speech."

A Vestigial Mote said:

Let's see it then... let's see the texts that put these prophecies into play, and we'll see how well it matches to the real-world history you are trying to fit it to here. I am not going to pretend that I am up-to-snuff on Bible prophecies and the texts you're supposedly referencing with these events/facts/numbers (nor do I know how much these numbers are estimated to produce a nicer, rounder-figured match to whatever "math" is worked out in The Bible). My guess is, however, that what you could provide to me is going to look more like you slicing the corners (or more) off of a square-peg in order to smash it sloppily into a round hole. "Hate speech." Give me a damn break. I don't even have all the facts, and I am not going to pretend that I do. You can guess how much I care whether The Bible can be interpreted to match to current-world events - and as for it being the near perfect match it would need to be for me to accept anything in The Bible as being accurate prophecy - I am placing my bets on that being a "fat" (sarcastically here - meaning roughly zero) chance.

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Before we discuss wars won by Israel, you are saying it's not hateful to suggest we Israelites self-fulfilled many prophecies about intense suffering before we got back the Holy Land? Will you not retract that grievous statement?

SkepticThinker said:

I've taken a longer look with you on more than one occasion.
It doesn't say what you claim it does and it's all quite vague, like every other prophecy I've seen. If it said something like "Israel will become a sovereign nation on May 14, 1948" and provided some actual details about who would be involved or something, then I'd be impressed. The way it is though ... not so much. Having to do mental gymnastics to make it work, doesn't work.

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So, if deep thinking is involved--or a bit of math since the BIBLE DOESN'T USE THE GREGORIAN CALENDAR (eyes rolling in my head), you won't do it. NOW I understand you.

SkepticThinker said:

Yes, the creation of Israel was a self-fulfilling "prophecy." Human beings worked to make it happen.
I'm not sure how pointing out that fact constitutes some kind of "hate speech."

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The Jewish people worked to SELF-FULFILL prophecies of their expulsion, martyrdom and persecution, then "timed" Zionism to delay 2 centuries until they could perfectly become a nation by DECREE OF THE UN on May 15, 1948, then SELF-FULFILLED prophecies that six Arab nations would attack?! How is your speech not some kind of alt.right hate speech here?!

BilliardsBall said:

Before we discuss wars won by Israel, you are saying it's not hateful to suggest we Israelites self-fulfilled many prophecies about intense suffering before we got back the Holy Land? Will you not retract that grievous statement?

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Grievous statement? What on Earth are you going on about? How is it a grievous statement to say that I don't believe anyone's actions were fulfillment of prophecy? Because that is all I am saying. I am not saying anyone went out to try and get themselves hurt, or cast themselves into suffering in order to fulfill prophecy. If you look back (and be honest now - let's remember - for you are doing a pretty poor job of that at the moment), you'll see that the ONLY times I mentioned forced-fulfillment of prophecy was in the UN decision to establish Israel (Resolution 181), with parties on all sides very, VERY keenly aware that it would be "fulfilling prophecy" if they took certain actions, and in a statement that that kind of thing is entirely possible IN GENERAL, given that actionable parties know what the prophecies are, and what moves they can make to make such prophecies appear to be fulfilled.

All of this attacking of my motives and trying to cast my character in doubt is intensely boring, honestly. All it confirms, to my mind, is that you don't have the goods. You don't. To me it looks very much like you are hiding behind ambiguous statements of "this or that battle fulfilled prophecy" or "6 Arab nations attack" or "people suffered," without once (yet) providing the texts that describe SPECIFIC events related to these points that definitively make them "fulfillment of prophecy." All this distraction is to try and stave off your having to do anything more than just keep providing the vague statements you have been providing. "We won the battle of such-and-such... clearly that fulfills THE PROPHECY." Yeah... sure, sure. I'm sure all the actors in the battle were called out by name in your "prophetic words", as well as the exact time and place, etc. Oh wait... no... that's precisely what I'm saying isn't anywhere in there. My bad.

BilliardsBall said:

So, if deep thinking is involved--or a bit of math since the BIBLE DOESN'T USE THE GREGORIAN CALENDAR (eyes rolling in my head), you won't do it. NOW I understand you.

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No, no. We're not talking about "deep thinking" here. We're talking about manipulating words and numbers to make them say what you want them to say.
That's all I see going on with these vague prophecies. You can do the same with Nostradamus' supposed prophecies.

As to the self-fulfilling aspect ... If I order a hamburger at a restaurant, and the waiter brings me a hamburger, do you think a prophecy been fulfilled?

BilliardsBall said:

The Jewish people worked to SELF-FULFILL prophecies of their expulsion, martyrdom and persecution, then "timed" Zionism to delay 2 centuries until they could perfectly become a nation by DECREE OF THE UN on May 15, 1948, then SELF-FULFILLED prophecies that six Arab nations would attack?! How is your speech not some kind of alt.right hate speech here?!

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What they worked to do was create the nation of Israel.

I've asked several times in the past (you must remember us having this exact same conversation at least twice, at this point), to explain what is anti-Semitic about pointing out that human beings worked hard to create the nation of Israel, which is all I've ever said. I'm still waiting on that one.

A Vestigial Mote said:

Grievous statement? What on Earth are you going on about? How is it a grievous statement to say that I don't believe anyone's actions were fulfillment of prophecy? Because that is all I am saying. I am not saying anyone went out to try and get themselves hurt, or cast themselves into suffering in order to fulfill prophecy. If you look back (and be honest now - let's remember - for you are doing a pretty poor job of that at the moment), you'll see that the ONLY times I mentioned forced-fulfillment of prophecy was in the UN decision to establish Israel (Resolution 181), with parties on all sides very, VERY keenly aware that it would be "fulfilling prophecy" if they took certain actions, and in a statement that that kind of thing is entirely possible IN GENERAL, given that actionable parties know what the prophecies are, and what moves they can make to make such prophecies appear to be fulfilled.

All of this attacking of my motives and trying to cast my character in doubt is intensely boring, honestly. All it confirms, to my mind, is that you don't have the goods. You don't. To me it looks very much like you are hiding behind ambiguous statements of "this or that battle fulfilled prophecy" or "6 Arab nations attack" or "people suffered," without once (yet) providing the texts that describe SPECIFIC events related to these points that definitively make them "fulfillment of prophecy." All this distraction is to try and stave off your having to do anything more than just keep providing the vague statements you have been providing. "We won the battle of such-and-such... clearly that fulfills THE PROPHECY." Yeah... sure, sure. I'm sure all the actors in the battle were called out by name in your "prophetic words", as well as the exact time and place, etc. Oh wait... no... that's precisely what I'm saying isn't anywhere in there. My bad.

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This!! ^^^

A Vestigial Mote said:

Grievous statement? What on Earth are you going on about? How is it a grievous statement to say that I don't believe anyone's actions were fulfillment of prophecy? Because that is all I am saying. I am not saying anyone went out to try and get themselves hurt, or cast themselves into suffering in order to fulfill prophecy. If you look back (and be honest now - let's remember - for you are doing a pretty poor job of that at the moment), you'll see that the ONLY times I mentioned forced-fulfillment of prophecy was in the UN decision to establish Israel (Resolution 181), with parties on all sides very, VERY keenly aware that it would be "fulfilling prophecy" if they took certain actions, and in a statement that that kind of thing is entirely possible IN GENERAL, given that actionable parties know what the prophecies are, and what moves they can make to make such prophecies appear to be fulfilled.

All of this attacking of my motives and trying to cast my character in doubt is intensely boring, honestly. All it confirms, to my mind, is that you don't have the goods. You don't. To me it looks very much like you are hiding behind ambiguous statements of "this or that battle fulfilled prophecy" or "6 Arab nations attack" or "people suffered," without once (yet) providing the texts that describe SPECIFIC events related to these points that definitively make them "fulfillment of prophecy." All this distraction is to try and stave off your having to do anything more than just keep providing the vague statements you have been providing. "We won the battle of such-and-such... clearly that fulfills THE PROPHECY." Yeah... sure, sure. I'm sure all the actors in the battle were called out by name in your "prophetic words", as well as the exact time and place, etc. Oh wait... no... that's precisely what I'm saying isn't anywhere in there. My bad.

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The Bible predicted May 15, 1948 for the restoration of Israel. Do you have a single statement from any person in the world that the UN was moved by that prophecy to select that date? Are you unaware that WWII precipitated the founding of modern Israel?

Are you unaware that AFTER 1948, when atheists began mocking certain Bible prophecies, scholars went and saw the 1948 date there, eliminating the possibility of human agency in fulfillment?

SkepticThinker said:

No, no. We're not talking about "deep thinking" here. We're talking about manipulating words and numbers to make them say what you want them to say.
That's all I see going on with these vague prophecies. You can do the same with Nostradamus' supposed prophecies.

As to the self-fulfilling aspect ... If I order a hamburger at a restaurant, and the waiter brings me a hamburger, do you think a prophecy been fulfilled?

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If the Bible orders Israel to be scattered and persecuted for 2,500 years, then restored to the land, then to fight and win against overwhelming odds multiple times, while skeptics like you hate them and deny their right to exist--than a prophecy has been fulfilled.

SkepticThinker said:

What they worked to do was create the nation of Israel.

I've asked several times in the past (you must remember us having this exact same conversation at least twice, at this point), to explain what is anti-Semitic about pointing out that human beings worked hard to create the nation of Israel, which is all I've ever said. I'm still waiting on that one.

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Human beings worked hard to PREVENT Israel from becoming a nation. Since all these are prophecies, saying the ones I'm bolding are self-fulfilling is worthy of hate speech and being banned from RF in my humble opinion:

The Jewish people worked to SELF-FULFILL prophecies of their expulsion, martyrdom and persecution, then "timed" Zionism to delay 2 centuries until they could perfectly become a nation by DECREE OF THE UN on May 15, 1948, then SELF-FULFILLED prophecies that six Arab nations would attack?! How is your speech not some kind of alt.right hate speech here?!