What REALLY is the point?!

Pudding said:

Jos said:

IDK what to believe and the search for any type of truth and knowledge seems pointless, idk, I'm rambling.

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Jos said:

What's the point in searching for truth or knowledge?

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Reasons can be:
- Some people need to satisfy their curiosity.
- Some people feeling bored, they have to find something to do.
- Some people are interested to do so.
- Some people need knowledge to solve their problems.
- A lot of times, a lot of different kinds of knowledges can be useful.

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@Jos

Medical knowledge can cure many disease. The knowledge of making transportation helps us go from place to place efficiently. The knowledge of constructing computer, internet and phone give us the ability to communicating with each other far away when we need to communicating with each other.

Do you still think that searching for any type of knowledge is pointless?

Jos said:

Pudding said:

Jos said:

It doesn't seem as though we can know anything for sure or with any type of certainty

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Do you know for sure that "we cannot know anything for sure"?

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No I'm not sure that's why I said it seems that we can't know rather than I definitely know for sure that we can't know anything with absolute certainty.

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How many types of certainty are there? Please list all of them here, thank you.

It doesn't seem as though we can know anything for sure?
We cannot know for sure that very likely we'll die if we jump off the air plane from 38,000 feet (no parachutes equip on us)?
We cannot know for sure that we'll die if we don't ingest any food, drink, other nutrition substance and anything for 30 years?
We cannot know for sure that we'll die if we don't breathe for 24 hours?

Do you still think that we cannot know anything for sure?

My point is that humans are fallible and our brain and senses lie to us so even if we were to have knowledge how can we trust if we've interpreted the knowledge correctly.

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Our brain and senses lie to us?
Who are the "us" you referring to here? All humans?
Our brain and senses lie to us, sometimes, or all the times?
Our brain and senses lie to us about what? For example...? (please elaborate with real life examples)

Jos said:

Pudding said:

Jos said:

What's the point in asking for evidence in favor of or against a God's existence?

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It can be because some people want to know whether such evidence exists or not.

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I know that but again I asked because it seems an argument can be made both for and against a God's existence, so it ultimately seems unknowable.

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Not ultimately, certainly.

Whether it's unknowable or not, depends on how strong/weak (or convincing/unconvincing) the evidence for or against the existence of a specific God.

(1) Strong evidence for a specific God; weak evidence against that God = convince a person that that God exists. To that person, it's knowable that that God exists.

(2) Weak evidence for a specific God; strong evidence against that God = convince a person that that God doesn't exists. To that person, it's knowable that that God doesn't exist.

(3) The evidence for and against a specific God is equally weak = a person is not convince that "that God exists", he/she also not convince that "that God doesn't exist". To that person, it's unknowable that whether that God exists or not.

(4) The evidence for and against a specific God is equally strong = a person is confuse whether that God exists or not. To that person, it's unknowable that whether that God exists or not.

Jos said:

Pudding said:

Jos said:

It seems as though one could argue both for and against one given the evidence available.

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Which religion's God are you referring to in your statement?

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Any and all Gods.

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Thanks for clarify.

Jos said:

What's the point in searching for truth or knowledge? It doesn't seem as though we can know anything for sure or with any type of certainty and even if we were to get knowledge, it's possible that we'll interpret it wrongly. What's the point in asking for evidence in favor of or against a God's existence? It seems as though one could argue both for and against one given the evidence available. IDK what to believe and the search for any type of truth and knowledge seems pointless, idk, I'm rambling.

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You seem to mixing up worldy knowledge with spiritual knowlegde. The first is relative knowledge whereas the second is the reality of your own (non-) existence or absolute truth. It is the same for everyone.
You don't search for absolute knowledge in the objective world for it cannot be found there.
You have to search within where all distinctions and relativity come to an end.

The point of going there is that everything is moving in that direction and that is the destination of everything. Coming near to it is an extreme form of blissfulness and in fact, that drives all life forms to strive for different forms of happiness. No life form has a desire for pain or sorrow. Knowingly or unknowinly we are all on the same Ananda Marga, the path of Supreme Bliss.

Jos said:

That's a bit of a false dichotomy. There are other options as well. The real dichotomy would be a created universe vs an uncreated universe.

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name some other options. This is either a 'God', or 'no God' universe.

He is either there, or not. How is that a false dichotomy?

Creator vs naturalistic is the same thing, stated with different terms.

Jos said:

Well as I said you've put forth a false dichotomy but for the sake of argument just because humans have certain intuitions about the world that doesn't make them true.

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No more than the 'no God!', intuition that a paltry few have had, over the millennia.

Jos said:

Again that's what religions claim, can you demonstrate any that there are eternal consequences?

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That is the premise, with a 'God' assumption. There are obviously no consequences in a godless universe. There may be, in a God made one.

That is the reason for the concern, for all of human history. The stakes are too high, and inquiring minds want to know. Some are content with memorized dogma, or Indoctrination. Others seek the Truth, as if their eternal soul depended on it.

Everyone has to do 2 things:
1. Their own believing
2. Their own dying

But the 'felt' reality of a spiritual realm is a constant reminder of the ominous portent of death that looms before us. Will we settle for regurgitated dogma from a corrupt and dying world? Or will we be liberated from the bondage of fear and corruption through reconciliation with our Maker?

THAT is the constant choice before us.

Pudding said:

Do you still think that searching for any type of knowledge is pointless?

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Ok fair enough you're right.

Pudding said:

How many types of certainty are there? Please list all of them here, thank you.

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IDK, I guess absolute and non absolute.

Pudding said:

It doesn't seem as though we can know anything for sure?
We cannot know for sure that very likely we'll die if we jump off the air plane from 38,000 feet (no parachutes equip on us)?
We cannot know for sure that we'll die if we don't ingest any food, drink, other nutrition substance and anything for 30 years?
We cannot know for sure that we'll die if we don't breathe for 24 hours?

Do you still think that we cannot know anything for sure?

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Ok fine, you're right.

Pudding said:

Our brain and senses lie to us?
Who are the "us" you referring to here? All humans?

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Yes all humans.

Pudding said:

Our brain and senses lie to us, sometimes, or all the times?
Our brain and senses lie to us about what? For example...? (please elaborate with real life examples)

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It can lie to us with respect to if what we're seeing is real or not.

Pudding said:

Not ultimately, certainly.

Whether it's unknowable or not, depends on how strong/weak (or convincing/unconvincing) the evidence for or against the existence of a specific God.

(1) Strong evidence for a specific God; weak evidence against that God = convince a person that that God exists. To that person, it's knowable that that God exists.

(2) Weak evidence for a specific God; strong evidence against that God = convince a person that that God doesn't exists. To that person, it's knowable that that God doesn't exist.

(3) The evidence for and against a specific God is equally weak = a person is not convince that "that God exists", he/she also not convince that "that God doesn't exist". To that person, it's unknowable that whether that God exists or not.

(4) The evidence for and against a specific God is equally strong = a person is confuse whether that God exists or not. To that person, it's unknowable that whether that God exists or not.

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True I guess.

usfan said:

name some other options. This is either a 'God', or 'no God' universe.

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That's a true dichotomy depending on one's definition of God.

usfan said:

Creator vs naturalistic is the same thing, stated with different terms.

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True but the way you stated it before didn't make it seem that way.

usfan said:

No more than the 'no God!', intuition that a paltry few have had, over the millennia.

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Even if a few people didn't have the God intuition, that doesn't prove that the majority are right.

usfan said:

THAT is the constant choice before us.

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At the end of the day no one knows, so it's probably not good for people to worry about something that they're not sure about.

Marcion said:

You seem to mixing up worldy knowledge with spiritual knowlegde. The first is relative knowledge whereas the second is the reality of your own (non-) existence or absolute truth. It is the same for everyone.
You don't search for absolute knowledge in the objective world for it cannot be found there.
You have to search within where all distinctions and relativity come to an end.

The point of going there is that everything is moving in that direction and that is the destination of everything. Coming near to it is an extreme form of blissfulness and in fact, that drives all life forms to strive for different forms of happiness. No life form has a desire for pain or sorrow. Knowingly or unknowinly we are all on the same Ananda Marga, the path of Supreme Bliss.

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That makes sense.

usfan said:

A BELIEF in #1 leaves us in an amoral, meaningless universe, which seems to conflict with an internal 'sense' within most humans, for all of recorded history.

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Bollocks

Jos said:

What's the point in searching for truth or knowledge? It doesn't seem as though we can know anything for sure or with any type of certainty and even if we were to get knowledge, it's possible that we'll interpret it wrongly. What's the point in asking for evidence in favor of or against a God's existence? It seems as though one could argue both for and against one given the evidence available. IDK what to believe and the search for any type of truth and knowledge seems pointless, idk, I'm rambling.

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I came to the same conclusion as what
Tolstoy wrote. “This spiritual condition presented itself to me in the following manner: my life is some kind of stupid and evil joke that someone is playing on me."

And then if there is Truth that sets one free from this, the next aim would be becoming free and escaping such madness and absurdity.

It actually all gets pretty humorous. Jokes all around. Jokes back to the joker. And leads to complete serenity.

I’ve been made aware to a lot of very disturbing, absurd, futile, and comical things that I won’t disclose... and can say that it is definitely highly beneficial for most to not know them yet or else they’d go mad. Better to remain hidden and ignorant in most’s current state. Anyone else who knows what I mean will understand.

One can go down many rabbit holes and get completely lost in a conscious labyrinth. Almost everything is meaningless.

Howard Is said:

Bollocks

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Your piercing rebuttal destroyed my arguments!

Jos said:

Even if a few people didn't have the God intuition, that doesn't prove that the majority are right.

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Right or wrong was not the point. You dismissed the 'God' belief as intuition, i just included the 'no God' belief with it.

Jos said:

the end of the day no one knows, so it's probably not good for people to worry about something that they're not sure about.

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Well, that's the thing. Humans HAVE, for millennia, worried, agonized, and given their lives in pursuit of this Great Mystery of our existence. Wise men, gurus, shamen, self help scammers, witch doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists, priests, pastors, counselors, and more 'pay for peace!' offers than you can shake a stick at.. have ALL tried to reassure us in our endless quest to know why we are here.

You think just saying, 'Don't worry about it...' will satisfy the deep existential angst that has plagued mankind for all our history?

You don't even have a good hook, or catch phrase.

'Don't worry about it?' You'll never build a global religion on that...

usfan said:

Your piercing rebuttal destroyed my arguments!

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You get that

usfan said:

Right or wrong was not the point. You dismissed the 'God' belief as intuition, i just included the 'no God' belief with it.

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Ok.

usfan said:

Well, that's the thing. Humans HAVE, for millennia, worried, agonized, and given their lives in pursuit of this Great Mystery of our existence. Wise men, gurus, shamen, self help scammers, witch doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists, priests, pastors, counselors, and more 'pay for peace!' offers than you can shake a stick at.. have ALL tried to reassure us in our endless quest to know why we are here.

You think just saying, 'Don't worry about it...' will satisfy the deep existential angst that has plagued mankind for all our history?

You don't even have a good hook, or catch phrase.

'Don't worry about it?' You'll never build a global religion on that...

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I said don't worry about it because as you pointed out people have worried about it for millennia and for all their worrying they haven't found an answer and if all those smart people haven't found an answer then there might not be one and so people shouldn't worry about it so much.

Jos said:

What's the point in searching for truth or knowledge? It doesn't seem as though we can know anything for sure or with any type of certainty and even if we were to get knowledge, it's possible that we'll interpret it wrongly. What's the point in asking for evidence in favor of or against a God's existence? It seems as though one could argue both for and against one given the evidence available. IDK what to believe and the search for any type of truth and knowledge seems pointless, idk, I'm rambling.

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your body is designed as a learning device

you will gather what is at hand ….and then die

back to God you will go

and what you carry will be noted

Road Less Traveled said:

I came to the same conclusion as what
Tolstoy wrote. “This spiritual condition presented itself to me in the following manner: my life is some kind of stupid and evil joke that someone is playing on me."

And then if there is Truth that sets one free from this, the next aim would be becoming free and escaping such madness and absurdity.

It actually all gets pretty humorous. Jokes all around. Jokes back to the joker. And leads to complete serenity.

I’ve been made aware to a lot of very disturbing, absurd, futile, and comical things that I won’t disclose... and can say that it is definitely highly beneficial for most to not know them yet or else they’d go mad. Better to remain hidden and ignorant in most’s current state. Anyone else who knows what I mean will understand.

One can go down many rabbit holes and get completely lost in a conscious labyrinth. Almost everything is meaningless.

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Wow I can actually relate to a lot of what you're saying. Can you explain more? Why do you think almost everything is meaningless?
And what are the absurd, disturbing, comical, futile things you've been made aware of?

Jos said:

Ok fair enough you're right.

IDK, I guess absolute and non absolute.

Ok fine, you're right.

Yes all humans.

It can lie to us with respect to if what we're seeing is real or not.

True I guess.

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Thanks for the conversation, bye.

Jos said:

I said don't worry about it because as you pointed out people have worried about it for millennia and for all their worrying they haven't found an answer and if all those smart people haven't found an answer then there might not be one and so people shouldn't worry about it so much.

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..you and a billiin others, for millennia.

But the very fact that we DO 'worry about it', is evidence itself of some kind of primal awareness that 'something', isn't right with our souls. We deny it, distract ourselves with amusements or chemicals to pretend it isn't there, but regardless of what we do, that nagging sense is still there. We are soul sick, and the stench of death is all around us. A clothes pin on the nose, or heavily applied cologne does not work, and in a quiet moment of reflection (which we avoid whenever possible!), the uncomfortable awareness of our eternal soul, and the feeling that we are more than our material selves, looms before us, and dares us to face it.

Ignoring it... Drowning it with noise, commotion, activity, media, and propaganda, only numbs that sense, for a while. It still lays there, like a tiger about to pounce, and the dread of uncertainty overwhelms the tidy routines we concoct to reassure our hapless souls that we are fine.

But we are not fine, and we know it. We need a soul Physician, because we cannot heal ourselves.

How long do we continue this pattern of denial and anesthesia? Chemicals, amusements, and chanting, 'Don't worry, be happy!', over and over, is self delusion, and we know it.

Try this:

Isolate yourself. Remove all distractions, alternate reality generators, people, music, EVERYTHING. Let the jumbled cacophony of jingles, song lyrics, bumper sticker slogans, Indoctrination memes, and all the distractions in this life, fade. Go deeper. Do not be satisfied with the superficial. This is your soul, and it will take some time for you to acquaint yourself. Be quiet. Listen. Reach out to the Infinite.

Nobody can hear the still, small voice in a circus atmosphere, and that is the agenda of the enemies of your soul.