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In God We Trust’ signs going up at public schools all over South Dakota

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
...God has been inserted into the secular system since the inception of this country.
We've had to modify the system over the centuries.
Slavery got the boot.
Women got the vote.
And we still need to get rid of the state religion.
Progress doesn't end.
 

SugarOcean

¡pɹᴉǝM ʎɐʇS
We've had to modify the system over the centuries.
Slavery got the boot.
Women got the vote.
And we still need to get rid of the state religion.
Progress doesn't end.
Please elaborate if you would on this part of your post: "...And we still need to get rid of the state religion."
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Please elaborate if you would on this part of your post: "...And we still need to get rid of the state religion."
The vestiges of Christianity, of course....
- Christian oath in court
- Christian scripture on government buildings
- Religious exemption from being drafted for military service
- Christian version of the Pledge Of Allegiance
- Tax exemptions for churches
 

SugarOcean

¡pɹᴉǝM ʎɐʇS
The vestiges of Christianity, of course....
- Christian oath in court
Amended years ago by the alternative that allows a witness to affirm.
- Christian scripture on government buildings
Historic evidences. Not likely to be removed.
- Religious exemption from being drafted for military service
There is no draft anymore. The American military became an all voluntary force in 1973.
-
Christian version of the Pledge Of Allegiance
One can freely choose not to say God when saying the pledge. People who believe in God are free to do the opposite. The pledge didn't include God at its inception. Not likely it will regress.
Tax exemptions for churches
Separation of church and state. Others besides religious entities are able to employ the tax exemption code if they qualify. To say churches and religious entities are precluded from that when others are entitled would be a violation.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Amended years ago by the alternative that allows a witness to affirm.
I've covered this before.
My personal experience in court is that the Christian oath is the default.
One must request something secular, which notifies the judge & jury
that one is possibly not Christian.
Historic evidences. Not likely to be removed.
Yet they're still being installed on buildings according to news.
We've been discussing such new requirements recently here.
There is no draft anymore.
Registering for the draft is still required of males, unless they're trans.
If reactivated, it applies only to non-trans males with low lottery numbers.
Just think of it....forced gambling for one's civil liberties.
One can freely choose not to say God when saying the pledge.
One young lad was recently arrested for refusing to say the pledge.
And the default is the Christian version.
Separation of church and state. Others besides religious entities are able to employ the tax exemption code if they qualify. To say churches and religious entities are precluded from that when others are entitled would be a violation.
I don't oppose churches getting the same breaks as other non-profits.
But I do oppose special exemptions.
 

SugarOcean

¡pɹᴉǝM ʎɐʇS
I've covered this before.
My personal experience in court is that the Christian oath is the default.
One must request something secular, which notifies the judge & jury
that one is possibly not Christian.
I remember when now deceased actor Marlon Brando was being sworn in at his son Christian's murder trial. The clerk stood there without a bible for Brando to place his hand on, as I recall, and gave the Christain oath. At the end of the oath Brando said, "No."
The clerk so use to witnesses affirming turned to go and then stopped cold and looked back at Brando. Murmurs could be heard through the courtroom.
Then they proceeded to give the secular oath.

My court experiences have been both. The Christian default oath in some courtrooms, and in others, the secular. No option, just the affirmation itself. Besides that, what Christian's don't realize is that the Bible prohibits the swearing to God in such an oath.

James 5:12 But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath; but your yes is to be yes, and your no, no, so that you may not fall under judgment

9 Bible verses about Not Swearing Oaths


Yet they're still being installed on buildings according to news.
We've been discussing such new requirements recently here.
I'll take your word on that. I have not seen such broadcasts. Not saying they haven't occurred.

Registering for the draft is still required of males, unless they're trans.
That's the "Selective Service" form.
If reactivated, it applies only to non-trans males with low lottery numbers.
Just think of it....forced gambling for one's civil liberties.
I can't say I don't foresee a day when the draft will be reinstated. It's a weird new world. However, I do think conscientious objectors should be exempt from battle.
If I were in a war I wouldn't want someone watching my back that didn't want to be there.

One young lad was recently arrested for refusing to say the pledge.
And the default is the Christian version.
Is this the story you're referring to?
Fla. boy's arrest not over pledge but for disturbance, police say

I don't oppose churches getting the same breaks as other non-profits.
But I do oppose special exemptions.
The 501(c)3 churches are privileged to exercise isn't a special exemption.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I remember when now deceased actor Marlon Brando was being sworn in at his son Christian's murder trial. The clerk stood there without a bible for Brando to place his hand on, as I recall, and gave the Christain oath. At the end of the oath Brando said, "No."
The clerk so use to witnesses affirming turned to go and then stopped cold and looked back at Brando. Murmurs could be heard through the courtroom.
Then they proceeded to give the secular oath.
That could've posed problems.
My court experiences have been both. The Christian default oath in some courtrooms, and in others, the secular. No option, just the affirmation itself. Besides that, what Christian's don't realize is that the Bible prohibits the swearing to God in such an oath.

James 5:12 But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath; but your yes is to be yes, and your no, no, so that you may not fall under judgment

9 Bible verses about Not Swearing Oaths


I'll take your word on that. I have not seen such broadcasts. Not saying they haven't occurred.

That's the "Selective Service" form.
I can't say I don't foresee a day when the draft will be reinstated. It's a weird new world. However, I do think conscientious objectors should be exempt from battle.
If I were in a war I wouldn't want someone watching my back that didn't want to be there.

Is this the story you're referring to?
Fla. boy's arrest not over pledge but for disturbance, police say

The 501(c)3 churches are privileged to exercise isn't a special exemption.
501c3 treatment I'm aware of, & don't challenge.
But that isn't all churches get....
Ministers Receive Special "Clergy Tax" Treatment.

It's common for Christians to not detect the integration of their religion
with government. I wouldn't expect them to notice how it adversely
affects non-Christians. But as one of the latter, I'm more acutely aware.
For example, how many Christians complain about their ordained clergy
being exempt from the draft? None that I've heard.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Interesting question.
I say no it is in the unique position to dismiss suits which lack merit.
This is a power no private entity has, ie, a unique asymmetry.
But the reverse should be "loser pay" because it would be a
powerful tool to keep government in check.

You're on a roll today.
Have you been eating brain food?
I am always on a roll, i figured you must've been eating that brain food to notice today.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
This isn't necessarily true. Religion in schools is distinguished from religion in the general public. So it would be a mistake to assume they would decline the case on the basis that you have stated here.

My point was in reference to signing a code of conduct. It had nothing to do with the Motto.

I do however agree that the motto will stay, unless overwhelming evidence of christians using it to proclaim religion surfaces. Let us not pretend that many Christians do not see this as a way to get "God" into schools in a "gotcha" manner.

Do not confuse me pointing out thus case is a lost cause right now is endorsing the motto or pretending it has nothing to do with Christians. SCOTUS declined to hear this year's motto case. To pursue the case is beating a dead until SCOTUS changes from the 4/4/1.
 

SugarOcean

¡pɹᴉǝM ʎɐʇS
That could've posed problems.
No, they gave him the secular oath that he did swear to. His son was later found guilty. Christian is passed on now too as is MB's daughter Cheyenne. Sad.

501c3 treatment I'm aware of, & don't challenge.
But that isn't all churches get....
Ministers Receive Special "Clergy Tax" Treatment.
I don't see a problem. It integrates with the 501(c)3.

It's common for Christians to not detect the integration of their religion
with government. I wouldn't expect them to notice how it adversely
affects non-Christians. But as one of the latter, I'm more acutely aware.
It's standard in the minds of those with a church. They don't realize they're a church and are tax exempt on their face without crossing the border of separation by applying for IRS tax exemption.
Once they get that exemption they're under that control.

It doesn't affect non-Christians in the least. FFRF has a tax exempt status.

For example, how many Christians complain about their ordained clergy
being exempt from the draft? None that I've heard.
Would you prefer they were not exempt? There are clergy in the military. Even at wartime.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Yes, the Constitution pertains to the secular, however its first unalienable guarantee is freedom of religion.
How do you ensure that "freedom of religion" is maintained? One way is to prohibit "In God We Trust" signs from being put up in public places.

I realize that you don't understand that.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
No, they gave him the secular oath that he did swear to. His son was later found guilty. Christian is passed on now too as is MB's daughter Cheyenne. Sad.

I don't see a problem. It integrates with the 501(c)3.

It's standard in the minds of those with a church. They don't realize they're a church and are tax exempt on their face without crossing the border of separation by applying for IRS tax exemption.
Once they get that exemption they're under that control.

It doesn't affect non-Christians in the least. FFRF has a tax exempt status.

Would you prefer they were not exempt? There are clergy in the military. Even at wartime.
I think we've covered everything.
I can't think of anything to add.
Boring, eh.
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
How do you ensure that "freedom of religion" is maintained? One way is to prohibit "In God We Trust" signs from being put up in public places.

I realize that you don't understand that.
Look at what we're arguing over, 'god' being inserted into public schools for all to see.

That's why you keep religion out of the public system. So we don't have these debates to begin with.
Why are christians trying so hard to infiltrate our public system? They should stick to their private schools.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
My point was in reference to signing a code of conduct. It had nothing to do with the Motto.



Do not confuse me pointing out thus case is a lost cause right now is endorsing the motto or pretending it has nothing to do with Christians. SCOTUS declined to hear this year's motto case. To pursue the case is beating a dead until SCOTUS changes from the 4/4/1.
I in no way assumed you endorsed it. I stated that the motto on the dollar is different than the motto in schools.
 
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