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Is premarital sex moral or immoral?

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
I consider it fair.

No, it's not. It's a good chance I can do higher level mathematics, and do them far easier. Why can't you? I can stroll through the parks of Geometry and Calculus. So if I can, that must mean you can keep up. No excuses.

So...I have problems dealing with geometry and calculus.

That's my being unable to DO something.

What I am advocating is that people NOT do something. Doesn't matter how good they may be at it, if they don't do it, yes?

But Shadow Wolf, can you sit there, with your higher mathematical skills, and tell me that I'm wrong here?

If everybody on the planet, just one generation of 'em, stayed celibate until they picked a permanent partner, and then stayed monogamous after that, wouldn't that eliminate sexually transmitted diseases?

Even if someone had one NOW, if they picked one partner and stuck with him/her, that particular person would no longer be spreading it around, would s/he? Same thing would happen; the end of STD's.

One generation. Just one.

One....and gone.

Even I can do THAT much math.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
If everybody on the planet, just one generation of 'em, stayed celibate until they picked a permanent partner, and then stayed monogamous after that, wouldn't that eliminate sexually transmitted diseases?
Nope, because sex is not the only ways STIs are transmitted.
Even if someone had one NOW, if they picked one partner and stuck with him/her, that particular person would no longer be spreading it around, would s/he? Same thing would happen; the end of STD's.
Some of them can be spread from mother to child.
That's my being unable to DO something.
Personal anecdotes are not valid for expecting results when applied to the general population at large.
What I am advocating is that people NOT do something.
You're advocating something that doesn't work based entirely on your own experience. Clearly that just isn't happening for the bulk majority of people. So instead of pretending the same failed abstinence only courses will work, why not advocate for something that does reduce unwanted pregnancies and STIs? Or should I point out I can fix cars and build robots, and question why you are unable to do those things just because I can do them?
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
Nope, because sex is not the only ways STIs are transmitted.

Sexually transmitted diseases are not spread by sex?

Some of them can be spread from mother to child.

.....and if the mother doesn't have one, she can't give it to her child. A mother who came virgin to her wedding (or whatever) and who stays monogamous to a husband who ALSO came virgin to the wedding and stays monogamous isn't going to have an STD to transmit to her child.

You're advocating something that doesn't work based entirely on your own experience.

It could work. Many people have done this. Will it work? No...because it's not something that can be legislated or forced. It has to be chosen by the people doing it.

And too many people are too darned selfish. They figure that their own sexual pleasure is more important than the welfare of their partners...or their children.


Clearly that just isn't happening for the bulk majority of people. So instead of pretending the same failed abstinence only courses will work, why not advocate for something that does reduce unwanted pregnancies and STIs?

Since when have I ever advocated 'abstinence only courses?'

Good grief. The ONLY way this would work is for kids to be given all the facts...

And since you are correct that it wouldn't work because I'm correct that people are too flippin' selfish and self centered, then kids must be given all the information about birth control methods.

For crying out loud, Shadow Wolf; I'm talking science here, not 'morality.' I'm talking about facts, not 'morality.'

So don't make assumptions here, or put words in my mouth. The FACT is, if one generation of humans would do this, STD's would be eliminated.

That is just...fact.

Will humanity do it? No. But hey, that doesn't change the fact that if we DID do it, STD's would be eliminated.

Or should I point out I can fix cars and build robots, and question why you are unable to do those things just because I can do them?

Actually, I can fix cars and build robots, too. That has nothing whatsoever to do with being able to add long lists of numbers. In fact, I HAVE fixed cars and built robots. Well, more the cars than the robots. I've built one robot.

But choosing not to do something isn't the same thing as being unable to do something.

Entirely different things there, m'friend.

True, I'm lousy at math; I'm discalculaic. you are a math whiz. Fine....

But the analogy here is more properly this: I CAN'T do arithmetic...you could choose not to do math...the results are the same; the math doesn't get done. Are you so tied to the white board that you MUST do math? Can you not choose to do something else, or simply not play with that particular equation?

So...are all those self centered hedonists who are more concerned about their own few minutes of physical pleasure forced to be that way? CAN they choose to be less self centered?

I say yes. They can. It's not a matter of talent or ability. It's a matter of thinking of someone else for a change.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I still have cancer.
I am truly sorry. I tried to be very precise with my language, because I never meant to say that all cancers or all cardiovascular disease for that matter. But there are types of cancers and types of cardiovascular disease with hard associations with meat consumption. Something far more damaging and fatal than all but really one sti. And, as I said, that one sti is way less scary than it was in the 80's for most people who have it. And not protecting your health could be argued just as much is selfish considering the impact it has on families as well as the animals within the greater meat industry practice. My argument was contrasting the two for that reason.

It's worth pointing out that even in your dream scenario would still not eliminate all sti because, contrary to the term, you can get many types of sti without sex. (And not just dirty needles although that's also significant. Don't share needles folks.)
But really, this functions identically to regular sti testing and treatment to prevent transmition, which means something like an open relationship polyamorous couple who test new partners and assess accordingly is aok with me.

But I think this convo has run its course.
Hope your health continues to improve.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
Personally I'm glad I had multiple partners outside of wedlock. It really helped me in discovering myself and displacing things I adopted just to try to fit in. I'm also STI and kid free.

The first is you being incredibly lucky. The second? Well, that's you being lucky, too....unless someone forgot to tell you something.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Sexually transmitted diseases are not spread by sex?
To further elucidate on this real quickly, there are many std you can get from nonsexual contact. From herpes to hep to HIV to HPV and more. From kissing (even your grandkids) to sharing bathroom products (razors, towels, salves), sharing clothing, dirty needles (drug use or tattoos if not following policy) or infected blood from a transfusion.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
...and if the mother doesn't have one, she can't give it to her child. A mother who came virgin to her wedding (or whatever) and who stays monogamous to a husband who ALSO came virgin to the wedding and stays monogamous isn't going to have an STD to transmit to her child.
Either the mother or father could have been born with one, and pass it on to their child. And sex isn't the only way STIs can be transmitted.
To further elucidate on this real quickly, there are many std you can get from nonsexual contact. From herpes to hep to HIV to HPV and more. From kissing (even your grandkids) to sharing bathroom products (razors, towels, salves), sharing clothing, dirty needles (drug use or tattoos if not following policy) or infected blood from a transfusion.
Exactly what she said. Health care workers are even at a high risk of infection from accidental pokes and accidentally coming into contact with infected blood. It is immoral and illegal for them to have any sexual contact with patients.
It has to be chosen by the people doing it.
And enough aren't doing it to promote abstinence only, and when abstinence only is promoted they are still having sex.
Actually, I can fix cars and build robots, too. That has nothing whatsoever to do with being able to add long lists of numbers. In fact, I HAVE fixed cars and built robots. Well, more the cars than the robots. I've built one robot.
Actually with robots it is the same exact logical processing that is required for "adding long lists of numbers." And the point still stands - personal anecdotal evidence of "I did it, so why can't others" isn't a valid reason on how to expect other people to behave.
So...are all those self centered hedonists who are more concerned about their own few minutes of physical pleasure forced to be that way? CAN they choose to be less self centered?
This assumes that most people having premarital sex are self centered and hedonists. That would be a very massive chunk of the population.
The first is you being incredibly lucky. The second? Well, that's you being lucky, too....unless someone forgot to tell you something.
Nope. I took precautions and got to know partners some before doing anything.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Hey everyone. I wanted to debate about whether or not premarital sex is moral or immoral. I will take the Catholic side since I am Catholic. We believe that premarital sex is immoral. We believe that it is gravely sinful which means that if it is done with full consent of the will and knowledge of the gravity of the sin, it becomes a mortal sin which can send you to Hell.

Anyway, we Catholics believe that sexual intercourse has two purposes: procreation and the union of the spouses which have to be one man and one woman as we don't believe in same-sex marriages. Premarital sex is often violating the first purpose as it is often contracepted sex. Premarital sex always violates the second purpose since the two having sex with each other are not married.

We believe that the Bible speaks out against premarital sex but I will not quote all of the citations from the Bible about it at this time.

So, what do you think? Do you think premarital sex is moral or immoral? Why or why not?
People may change their minds but God doesn't. Of course it's immoral and always has been.
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
People may change their minds but God doesn't. Of course it's immoral and always has been.
If the virgin birth story has any credibility, which is doubtful, god got Mary in the family way when she was betrothed to Joseph. There was no IVF in those days so it must have had sex with her in the time honoured fashion!
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
People brave enough to risk driving a vehicle when there are tens of thousands of fatalities from car accidents each year should not be cowards to risk something going wrong with wearing a condom.
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
If the virgin birth story has any credibility, which is doubtful, god got Mary in the family way when she was betrothed to Joseph. There was no IVF in those days so it must have had sex with her in the time honoured fashion!

It's just one absurd mockery of God after another with you. Why doesn't the Sodomite crowd write their own Bible, starting with 1st Sodomy 1:1?
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
It's just one absurd mockery of God after another with you. Why doesn't the Sodomite crowd write their own Bible, starting with 1st Sodomy 1:1?
A god as evil as the one you believe in should be mocked then exterminated, if it actually exists, and isn't the mythical being I think it is.
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
Just remember, Sodomite, that what judgements you give shall be judged against you.

You calling me, a straight person, a Sodomite? That's another one of your lies.

As for judging,

God has commanded the church to make correct judgments:

John 7:24: “Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment.”

Matthew 18:15-17: “If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses (note Deuteronomy 19:15). If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector .”

I Corinthians 6:4: “Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church.”

God commands us to judge according to one’s ‘fruits’:

Matthew 7:17-20: “Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit…..every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.”

The Saints of Christ will judge the world, and angels:

I Corinthians 6:2: “Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?”

I Corinthians 6:3: “Do you not know that we will judge angels?”

Should no one ever be rebuked?

Jesus rebukes the teachers of the law and the Pharisees:

Matthew 23:27-28: “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.”

John the Baptist rebukes King Herod for adultery and other sins:

Luke 3:19: “But when John rebuked Herod the tetrarch because of Herodias, his brother’s wife, and all the other things he had done, Herod added this to them all: He locked John up in prison.”

Stephen rebukes the Jewish leaders:

Acts 7:51-53: “You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him – you who have received the law that was put into effect through angels but have not obeyed it.”

God uses people to warn others to turn from their sin:

“When I say to the wicked, ‘You wicked person, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak out to dissuade them from their ways, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. But if you do warn the wicked person to turn from their ways and they do not do so, they will die for their sin, though you yourself will be saved.” – Ezekiel 33

Also note all the Old Testament prophets who condemned sin and corrupt moral leadership, and who were persecuted for their discernment and duty.

Finally, when someone accuses you of being judgmental, are they themselves not being critical and judgmental in making that accusation?

But stay quiet, and evil will abound:

“The only thing required for evil to triumph is for good men to (say and) do nothing.” – Edmund Burke

The Bible – Is it Wrong to Judge?
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
To further elucidate on this real quickly, there are many std you can get from nonsexual contact. From herpes to hep to HIV to HPV and more. From kissing (even your grandkids) to sharing bathroom products (razors, towels, salves), sharing clothing, dirty needles (drug use or tattoos if not following policy) or infected blood from a transfusion.

You can't spread it if you don't HAVE it, and if you don't get it through sexual contact, you aren't going to spread it in any other way.
 
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