Arguments for or against god

mikkel_the_dane · Jul 27, 2019

We Never Know said:
Does know in the form I used it mean something else?

So as a global skeptic, know is a deeply held belief, which you don't doubt. Knowledge is a belief, which apparently works and there can be given no reason, logic or evidence for it. It is the belief that reason, logic and evidence work.

Vinayaka · Jul 27, 2019

We Never Know said:
I won't be duped into arguments against a god or for a god. It's either a belief, lack of a belief, unknown or don't care.

Some argue on faith, some argue on lack of belief, some argue for the sake of arguing it seems.

Just another fishing expedition seeking what others think.

At this point I've personally come to find the atheist/theist debate rather boring actually. It's circular, and reminding of Groundhog day.

I agree with your points.

LuisDantas · Jul 27, 2019

We Never Know said:
Just another fishing expedition seeking what others think.

The matter of the existence of any given deity is not supposed to be either solvable or significant.

Frankly, asking such a question is in and of itself just weird and more than a little bit self-contradictory.

What confuses people is that the Abrahamics insist that their Gods are totally real and that it is very much a big thing that they exist. Add to that the fact that their conceptions of deities, far more than most others, are usually remarkably easy to disprove, when not entirely self-contradictory.

That exotic stance created the need to oppose it, and raised the matter to a perceived level of significance that is entirely unjustified.

Neutral Name · Jul 27, 2019

Israel Khan said:
I see that. But that doesn't mean that any one of those theories is actually how it happened as we have no way of showing what is the truth. Which is why I will still be agnostic about the issue.

It seems like one would have to be really knowledgeable about math and science to figure these theories out though.

To me, it goes beyond what science and math currently understand. What created existence? What made matter, time, energy and space. Without these there would be no existence. Where did they come from? I don't see science or math explaining these.

Neutral Name · Jul 27, 2019

leroy said:
You don't seem to understand the implications of not having a FT universe.

For example if we make gravity .0001% stronger the whole universe would have collapsed in a black hole shortly after the big bang.

So it is no like some other life could would have evolved.

However you need to explain why did the universe started in a state of low entropy. ... It could have started in a state of high entropy only to evolve in a stated of even higher entropy.

However it is still a fact that you would assume that a set of 10000 dice all facing 6 was caused by a designer.

Evolutionists use the same type of logic when comparing the chimp and the human genome, they note that it is very unlikely for humans and chimps to share the same genetic markers by chance and hence they provide an explanation for such similarities (common ancestor)

It would be stupid to say " hey that pattern is as unlikely as any other pattern, therefore it happens by chance"

Will you just explain for me, please, where did the energy, mass, space and time come from to create the big bang? Nobody has ever explained that to me.

mikkel_the_dane · Jul 27, 2019

Diana Montgomery said:
Will you just explain for me, please, where did the energy, mass, space and time come from to create the big bang? Nobody has ever explained that to me.

One way to answer it, is this question: How come there is something and not nothing? Answer: Because there is. Anything beyond that is speculation.

Neutral Name · Jul 27, 2019

leov said:
Some were indoctrinated that God wants them to witness God in the world. It is a misunderstanding resulting in more misunderstanding and sometimes positive results.

ChristineM said:
Correct, at present they are all hypothesis.

There are some on here can follow the maths, i just gave to go by the explanations if it gets too heavy, maths is not my subject by a long way

Even without understanding the maths involved, it can be understood that the maths have been correct so far. There is a quantum computer, an atom has been sent back in time one second and atoms watched do change paths. We know all of this is true as well as the higgs boson particle being found which is the basis of mass/weight/the material or physical. So, the math has so far proven true. Therefore, I would believe that at least most of the hypotheses will become proven theories. They will be proven.

However, I do believe in God. I believe that God is the creator of our universe and the beginning of life. Where would energy, mass, time and space come from? There would be no existence if it were not for God.

Neutral Name · Jul 27, 2019

We Never Know said:
Yet not everyone has faith and believes that. Many do though. I haven't seen any evidence for a god to give me any reason to accept that.

The big bang. What created the energy, time, space and mass for the big bang? Scientists have never explained this. Where did existence come from? I will keep asking this question until someone answers it. So far, no one has.

Neutral Name · Jul 27, 2019

mikkel_the_dane said:
One way to answer it, is this question: How come there is something and not nothing? Answer: Because there is. Anything beyond that is speculation.

That is so weak. How about an answer? Philosophy is nice but it doesn't often explain science or the supernatural. Because it is, is not an answer.

leroy · Jul 27, 2019

Mock Turtle said:
All the philosophical arguments appear contrived (to me at least, but my philosophical reading was done many decades ago). The fine-tuning argument is just a bit messy, given that we might use this for so many other things, and the fact that much in nature just appears to exist for no apparent purpose (other than having evolved). I'll admit I just don't have the scientific knowledge to query the cosmological constants and such. The existence of the Earth too, seems more like a happy accident rather than being designed for our purpose - given that we know a lot more now about such things than we ever did. True that it is very convenient that we seem to inhabit the Goldilocks zone, but we just don't know how common this actually is - not yet - but we do know that almost certainly every star we see does have planets, and many could be much like Earth.

The moral argument I just cannot accept since we do have so much in common with other species and they too often exhibit forms of morality - hence by a bit of common sense - morality has probably existed in some form in our earlier ancestors. And an objective morality in some form also seems not likely. We seem to have evolved our morality in order to survive.

All religious texts (for me) might have certain truths, but defying the laws of nature put them into the suspect category - with extraordinary claims seemingly used to impress others. As remarked by others in this thread, humans are just so likely to do this - with others being so vulnerable to accept such things - that I'm afraid they must just remain in the category - postulated or claimed.

I do believe in having a consistent view of existence, and having lived long enough (over 70), I haven't come across anything that has shifted my lack of belief in such things. I didn't have a particularly religious upbringing I will admit, but although I can respect the teachings of various faiths, the edifice that each religion has built over the years hasn't impressed me such that I feel I cannot confront them or dismiss them - as being entirely truthful or factual at least.

I'm slightly agnostic as to the existence of a creative force but only a little.

Is there a specific argument that you whant to discuss with me?

mikkel_the_dane · Jul 27, 2019

Diana Montgomery said:
That is so weak. How about an answer? Philosophy is nice but it doesn't often explain science or the supernatural. Because it is, is not an answer.

That is the only one there is. The rest is speculation.

I get it. Philosophy is a sort of negative, because there are limits to knowledge, reason, logic and evidence. Now how you deal with that, is something you do.

leroy · Jul 27, 2019

Diana Montgomery said:
Will you just explain for me, please, where did the energy, mass, space and time come from to create the big bang? Nobody has ever explained that to me.

I would say that it was created by God.

Other alternatives are
They have always existed (which is inconsistent with our observations and the laws of nature)

They came from nothing: which is incoherent and absurd.

Open question for everyone:
Are there other alternatives?

Why is that alternative better than God?

mikkel_the_dane · Jul 27, 2019

leroy said:
I would say that it was created by God.

Other alternatives are
They have always existed (which is inconsistent with our observations and the laws of nature)

They came from nothing: which is incoherent and absurd.

Open question for everyone:
Are there other alternatives?

Why is that alternative better than God?

God was bored and created a demon and asked the demon: I am bored, got any ideas?
The demon answered: You are the source of everything and you can't be limited, because if there is something limiting you, then that can't be the case, because you are the source of everything, right?
God: Yes, I have no limits.
The demon: Then create without creating it a natural universe without souls, Heaven and what not, where the humans in it die, when they die.
And God did so.

I have not problem with the first unmoved mover, but that is all the first unmoved mover is. There is not guarantee, what you otherwise attach to God, is true of God.

leroy · Jul 27, 2019

Diana Montgomery said:
The big bang. What created the energy, time, space and mass for the big bang? Scientists have never explained this. Where did existence come from? I will keep asking this question until someone answers it. So far, no one has.

Based on current scientific knowledge matter/energy can't be created nor destroyed.

Based on current scientific knowledge matter/energy is not eternal .

So there are only 2 possibilities

1 they had a supernatural origin

2 our current understanding of science is wrong.

So you ether accept "the supernatural" or deny science.

Is there an other alternative?

paarsurrey · Jul 27, 2019

Arguments for or against god

There is no positive argument against non-existence of G-d. Right, please?

Regards

We Never Know · Jul 27, 2019

Diana Montgomery said:
The big bang. What created the energy, time, space and mass for the big bang? Scientists have never explained this. Where did existence come from? I will keep asking this question until someone answers it. So far, no one has.

That is a mystery. Science can go back to nanoseconds after the big bang, anything before that all laws break down so we may never know.

mikkel_the_dane · Jul 27, 2019

paarsurrey said:
Arguments for or against god

There is no positive argument against non-existence of G-d. Right, please?

Regards

No, it is an unknown what reality really is, including whether there is a Creator God or not.

We Never Know · Jul 27, 2019

leroy said:
Based on current scientific knowledge matter/energy can't be created nor destroyed.

Based on current scientific knowledge matter/energy is not eternal .

So there are only 2 possibilities

1 they had a supernatural origin

2 our current understanding of science is wrong.

So you ether accept "the supernatural" or deny science.

Is there an other alternative?

Spill over through white holes from another universe is another hypothesis.

leroy · Jul 27, 2019

mikkel_the_dane said:
God was bored and created a demon and asked the demon: I am bored, got any ideas?
The demon answered: You are the source of everything and you can't be limited, because if there is something limiting you, then that can't be the case, because you are the source of everything, right?
God: Yes, I have no limits.
The demon: Then create without creating it a natural universe without souls, Heaven and what not, where the humans in it die, when they die.
And God did so.

I have not problem with the first unmoved mover, but that is all the first unmoved mover is. There is not guarantee, what you otherwise attach to God, is true of God.

Ok so if you don't like the God alternative..... What option do you propose?

Matter/energy came from nothing? They have always existed? What explanation do you propose and why is that alternative better than God?

mikkel_the_dane · Jul 27, 2019

leroy said:
Based on current scientific knowledge matter/energy can't be created nor destroyed.

Based on current scientific knowledge matter/energy is not eternal .

So there are only 2 possibilities

1 they had a supernatural origin

2 our current understanding of science is wrong.

So you ether accept "the supernatural" or deny science.

Is there an other alternative?

#1 only tells you that it was a unmoved mover. The rest you attach is faith.

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