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Changing physical form when we go to Heaven

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Elijah and Enoch have gone to heaven. The biblical passages prove it to you, but I have even a better proof.
I'm afraid they don't prove that Elijah and Enoch went to heaven. No human went to heaven before Christ because as Revelation says, Jesus is "the firstborn from the dead". He was not the first person to be resurrected...but he was the first human to go to heaven.

John the Baptist did not go to heaven because he died before Jesus opened the way. This is why Jesus could say...."Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is." (Matthew 11:11)

Hebrews 10:19-21..."Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 which he opened up for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God."

If you recall, the curtain separating the Holy compartment from the Most Holy, in the temple was rent in two from top to bottom, when Jesus died, signifying that the way to heaven was now open for others to follow, later. John 3:13 confirms the truth of that statement. No human went to heaven before Jesus. Only those taken into the new covenant have that privilege. These are chosen by God and anointed with his spirit...they are not just volunteers.

Elijah and Moses appeared to Jesus and his disciples and they spoke to them. (Matthew 17:3-4)
So they are not " without consciousness " as the Watchtower claims, but are still alive. Not only Elijah and Enoch went to heaven, but also Moses.

Elijah and Moses were long dead when the transfiguration occurred. Jesus said it was a "vision". (Matthew 17:9)
Jesus was fulfilling a promise made to some of his apostles that they would not die before they got to see Jesus in his Kingdom. Jesus was the King of that Kingdom and Elijah was a fitting representative of the Prophets and Moses represented the Law...They were not real....nor were they spirits because God's law forbade the Jews any contact with spirits. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) It is why angels materialized human form to convey God's instructions to his earthly servants.

And what did Jesus mean in John 3:13?
Behold:
Question: "Does John 3:13 mean that no one went to Heaven before Jesus?"

Answer:
In John 3:13 Jesus says to Nicodemus, “No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven–the Son of Man.” This verse is somewhat difficult to interpret and is often misunderstood. It is also frequently used by those who want to find contradictions in the Bible.

Misunderstood? Or just too hard to read and fit into a pre-conceived idea....without a lot of tap dancing?

The Greek Interlinear translates that verse...
" No oudeis one has gone anabainō up to eis · ho heaven ouranos except ei mē the ho one who came down katabainō out ek of · ho heaven ouranos, the ho Son hyios of ho Man anthrōpos."

No tap dancing required.....it is plainly stated.

The gist of John 3:13 is this: “None of your earthly teachers can really teach you about heaven, because none of them have actually been there. However, I have been there. In fact, it is My home. I have come to you from heaven, and I have brought with Me experiential knowledge of that place. My testimony carries weight; I can tell you the truth about salvation.” The NLT brings out the meaning well: “No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven.”

You need a biased paraphrased version to prop up your belief.....? Seriously?

ESV..." No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man."

HCSB..." No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man"

NASB..."No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man."

NET..." No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man."

NIV..."No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man"

Now compare that with the NLT...
"No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven.”

What do you see? Twisted much?

In claiming a heavenly abode, Jesus was claiming deity. Nicodemus himself had already admitted that Jesus was extraordinary when he said, “We know you are a teacher who has come from God” (verse 2).

Angels are also residents of a heavenly abode...they are not deities. Nicodemus did not say Jesus 'was God'...he said that he had 'come from God'. Adam came from God too...he wasn't a deity.

Jesus was not teaching that no one had ever gone to heaven before. Obviously, the Old Testament saints had gone to heaven (or paradise) when they died (Mark 12:26-27 ), and Enoch and Elijah had been taken there without dying ( Genesis 5:24 ; Hebrews 11:5 ; 2 Kings 2:11 ). Rather, He was teaching that, of all rabbis, He had the best credentials. Jesus has direct contact with heaven; He is an expert on the subject.
Source: Does John 3:13 mean that no one went to Heaven before Jesus?

Sorry, but you are incorrect again. No human went to heaven before Jesus....period. There is no teaching of an immortal soul in the ancient Jewish faith, because the Jews believed in a physical resurrection back to this life under Messiah's Kingdom. It is taught in their scripture, but later they succumbed to Greek influence and adopted the belief in an immortal soul. That made the resurrection redundant because you can't resurrect someone who is not dead.
The Jews expected what Jesus taught at John 5:28-29....to be called out of their graves to a restoration of life on a cleansed earth. (2 Peter 3:13; Matthew 5:5)

Mark 12:26-27 is an expression of God that does not cancel out everything else the Jews believed about death. It was reinforcing the idea that to God, death is not permanent....its as if the dead are all still living to him.

Luke 20:38 reinforces that idea.....from the YLT
"and He is not a God of dead men, but of living, for all live to Him.'" He remembers all who have died because he has promised to restore them to life....

After describing all the faithful ones of pre-Christian times, Paul said in Hebrews 11:39-40....
"And yet all of these, although they received a favorable witness because of their faith, did not obtain the fulfillment of the promise, 40 because God had foreseen something better for us, so that they might not be made perfect apart from us."

Do you see that those of pre-Christian times are still sleeping and will not be made perfect apart from those with the "heavenly calling" (Hebrews 3:1).....not all have the heavenly calling because it is only Christ's chosen ones who receive it. Paul said that Jesus was to return to take them "home" to the place he went to "prepare" for them.
He did not tell them when. So no one was to go to heaven until Christ's return. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Let's analyse what you said here....there is so much in my response that you did not address as I assume that there is no response that fits your belief system.

Yes, Jesus is the firstborn of the dead. But Enoch, Elijah and the others were not in the realm of the dead but came directly to heaven. It is written about Enoch that he did not die:
Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God.

What do we know about Enoch and the situation that precipitated his being "taken"?
Maintaining high standards is hard when surrounded by ungodly people. But Enoch also delivered an uncompromising message of judgment against the wicked. Directed by God’s spirit, Enoch prophetically declared: “Look! Jehovah came with his holy myriads, to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly concerning all their ungodly deeds that they did in an ungodly way, and concerning all the shocking things that ungodly sinners spoke against him.” (Jude 14-15)

What effect would that message have on perverse nonbelievers? It is reasonable to suppose that such stinging words made Enoch extremely unpopular, perhaps eliciting threats. Some must have wanted to silence him for good. However, Enoch was not intimidated. He was determined to serve God, come what may.
Enoch was apparently in mortal danger when “God took him.” (Genesis 5:24) Jehovah did not allow his faithful prophet to suffer at the hands of rabid enemies. According to the apostle Paul, “Enoch was transferred so as not to see death.” (Hebrews 11:5)

"Transferred"

μετατίθημι (metatithēmi)
Strong: G3346

GK: G3572

to transport, Acts 7:16; to transfer, Heb. 7:12; to translate out of the world, Heb. 11:5; met. to transfer to other purposes, to pervert, Jude 4; mid. to transfer one’s self, to change over, Gal. 1:6"

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=heb+11:5&version=MOUNCE


Many believe that God took him to heaven, where he kept on living. However, Jesus plainly stated: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.” as we have discussed.....much of which you have ignored.

God may have put him in a prophetic trance and then terminated his life while he was in that state. Under such circumstances, Enoch would not "see death". Then “he was nowhere to be found,” apparently because God disposed of his body, even as he disposed of Moses’ body. (Deuteronomy 34:5-6)

and also Elijah went to heaven alive.:
2 Kings 2:11
And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

There are different "heavens" in the Bible...one of them is where birds fly. Where do we see whirlwinds?

Although Elijah was seen as he “went up by a whirlwind into heaven,” this does not mean that he went into the spirit realm. Why not? Because he is later reported as sending a letter of reproof to the king of Judah. (2 Kings 2:11; 2 Chronicles 21:1, 12-15) He was merely relocated.

Also fleshly bodies cannot exist in heaven. (1 Corinthians 15:50)

Under " vision " I understand a supernatural appearance. And yes, it was a supernatural appearance , I don't understand what the contradiction is.
And Moses and Elijah, after their ascension to heaven, became spirit beings like angels, and as the angels can be visible to people (Joshua 5:13-15; Mark 16:5) so also the two can be visible.

The contradiction comes by realizing that only Christ's disciples were ever offered life in heaven as parties to the new covenant. God's original purpose was to have humans live on earth....he never abandoned that outcome because of the disobedience of the Adam and his wife. He purposed the administration of a Kingdom to facilitate a return to God by those redeemed by Christ's sacrifice. Paul called it "the ministry of the reconciliation".

God's Kingdom was to take human kind back to what God originally intended in Eden. The detour has been painful but the beneficial outcome will be everlasting. (Isaiah 55:11; Revelation 21:2-4)

"If David didn’t go to heaven, then neither did Moses or Elijah, or any other of the ancient prophets. "
I'm sorry, but that statement doesn't make sense.

King David featured prominently in the outworking of God's purpose for the Messiah to come through his genetic line. David did not go to heaven as the scriptures clearly state.....if David did not go to heaven then neither did any of the other prominent men and women of faith in pre-Christian times.

Hebrews 11:39-40....concerning those pre-Christian men and women of faith, Paul says....
"And yet all of these, although they received a favorable witness because of their faith, did not obtain the fulfillment of the promise, 40 because God had foreseen something better for us, so that they might not be made perfect apart from us."
 

calm

Active Member
Let's analyse what you said here....there is so much in my response that you did not address as I assume that there is no response that fits your belief system.



What do we know about Enoch and the situation that precipitated his being "taken"?
Maintaining high standards is hard when surrounded by ungodly people. But Enoch also delivered an uncompromising message of judgment against the wicked. Directed by God’s spirit, Enoch prophetically declared: “Look! Jehovah came with his holy myriads, to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly concerning all their ungodly deeds that they did in an ungodly way, and concerning all the shocking things that ungodly sinners spoke against him.” (Jude 14-15)

What effect would that message have on perverse nonbelievers? It is reasonable to suppose that such stinging words made Enoch extremely unpopular, perhaps eliciting threats. Some must have wanted to silence him for good. However, Enoch was not intimidated. He was determined to serve God, come what may.
Enoch was apparently in mortal danger when “God took him.” (Genesis 5:24) Jehovah did not allow his faithful prophet to suffer at the hands of rabid enemies. According to the apostle Paul, “Enoch was transferred so as not to see death.” (Hebrews 11:5)

"Transferred"

μετατίθημι (metatithēmi)
Strong: G3346

GK: G3572

to transport, Acts 7:16; to transfer, Heb. 7:12; to translate out of the world, Heb. 11:5; met. to transfer to other purposes, to pervert, Jude 4; mid. to transfer one’s self, to change over, Gal. 1:6"

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=heb+11:5&version=MOUNCE


Many believe that God took him to heaven, where he kept on living. However, Jesus plainly stated: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.” as we have discussed.....much of which you have ignored.

God may have put him in a prophetic trance and then terminated his life while he was in that state. Under such circumstances, Enoch would not "see death". Then “he was nowhere to be found,” apparently because God disposed of his body, even as he disposed of Moses’ body. (Deuteronomy 34:5-6)



There are different "heavens" in the Bible...one of them is where birds fly. Where do we see whirlwinds?

Although Elijah was seen as he “went up by a whirlwind into heaven,” this does not mean that he went into the spirit realm. Why not? Because he is later reported as sending a letter of reproof to the king of Judah. (2 Kings 2:11; 2 Chronicles 21:1, 12-15) He was merely relocated.

Also fleshly bodies cannot exist in heaven. (1 Corinthians 15:50)



The contradiction comes by realizing that only Christ's disciples were ever offered life in heaven as parties to the new covenant. God's original purpose was to have humans live on earth....he never abandoned that outcome because of the disobedience of the Adam and his wife. He purposed the administration of a Kingdom to facilitate a return to God by those redeemed by Christ's sacrifice. Paul called it "the ministry of the reconciliation".

God's Kingdom was to take human kind back to what God originally intended in Eden. The detour has been painful but the beneficial outcome will be everlasting. (Isaiah 55:11; Revelation 21:2-4)



King David featured prominently in the outworking of God's purpose for the Messiah to come through his genetic line. David did not go to heaven as the scriptures clearly state.....if David did not go to heaven then neither did any of the other prominent men and women of faith in pre-Christian times.

Hebrews 11:39-40....concerning those pre-Christian men and women of faith, Paul says....
"And yet all of these, although they received a favorable witness because of their faith, did not obtain the fulfillment of the promise, 40 because God had foreseen something better for us, so that they might not be made perfect apart from us."
Your statements don't make sense and you connect things that actually have nothing to do with each other.
To continue discussing does not help, no matter how long and how often, we would write, you would stay to your thinking.
I give you a friendly advice, try not always to believe in what the Watchtower tells you, but to believe in what the Bible says.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
When we die, we don't keep our physical bodies obviously, they eventually decompose. I, personally, have grown quite attached to my body. I've lived in it for over 35 years now, and I have grown to appreciate it, respect it, and absolutely love it. Its a big part of..."me" :) I like interacting in human form. The thought of floating/flying around as a translucent spirit per se, makes me sad. I believe in heaven, and have faith its a wonderful place, but I get sad about this.
I see body as body, nothing more. No need to attach to it :) the body you were born with and the body you have now, is not the same (cells been changed from the core out to the skin about 7 times in a life time. (60-80 years)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Your statements don't make sense and you connect things that actually have nothing to do with each other.

The Bible is one book...everything in it is connected....it has one author. How sad that you can't see the connection.

To continue discussing does not help, no matter how long and how often, we would write, you would stay to your thinking.
I give you a friendly advice, try not always to believe in what the Watchtower tells you, but to believe in what the Bible says.

How ironic that I have used the Bible in every post, showing you exactly what the Bible says and you have ignored so much scripture to stick to your own beliefs....I had to rate your post as funny because it seriously made me laugh.

I was raised in Christendom....I spent the first third of my life there.....so, having been on both sides of these arguments, I know which ones rings true scripturally, and which are absolute rubbish......I will give you some friendly advice.....look for those who are preaching the good news of God's kingdom in every nation on earth, the ones who actually know what God's Kingdom is and what it will accomplish (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20; Daniel 2:44).....who refuse to take up arms against their fellow man, which more importantly includes fellow Christians who might be on the opposing side (2 Corinthians 10:3-4; Matthew 5:43-45).....who, because they are loyal to God's Kingdom, refuse to be part of the world's corrupt political system. (John 18:36; John 15:18-21) Who don't follow doctrines adopted from pagan religion, like three headed gods, immortality of the human soul or hellfire....nor do they celebrate pagan festivals under a "Christian" label. I have been on both sides of this fence.....you seem to have no idea of how distorted Christendom's teachings are.

The scripture used in your identification is a spurious verse that was never even in the original manuscripts.....so perhaps it is you who needs some Bible education....

I had to look up your religious designation (natsari) as I had never heard of it.....this is what I found.

"The vast majority of those who call themselves Messianic Jews are nothing more than Baptist in Jewish garb, they merely keep up and out ward appearance of Judaism yet are more closely aligned with Modern Day Christianity which is far flung from Natsari Judaism. “Messianic” is actually a Gentile designation. They pick and choose which commandments of Torah to follow where as the Natsari trace their roots back to the 1 century Jewish st believers in Messiah who walked in the footsteps of Messiah Yeshua and kept the whole Torah as well as kept their cultural identity as Jews in tact by keeping many customs and traditions." (Rabbi Yehudah ben Shomeyr)

Is this who you are? Are you just a Baptist in Jewish garb?
 
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