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Why do Jehovah's Witnesses falsify the Bible?

tigger2

Active Member
Where are you getting your quotes from out of interest? Is it from a source that quotes individual verses out of books or do you actually have the books with you to reference in full.

The misquoting problems come into the picture because the people quoted say that the JW's pick verses and omit vital information from those verses which would clarify the context, thus parentheses are used in the quotes.

So full context rather than proof texting certain verse would prove your case.

I watched a video with Robert Price and he says that the JW's interpretation of John 1:1c is entirely valid as translation is very influenced by theology.
......................
Unlike calm, I do have the books I quoted from in my last post.

I also have the NT Grammars by leading Trinitarian scholars from which I found the information about the use and non-use of the article. They have given me the information I needed to find all the honest examples (and the exceptions) that are needed to understand the intended meaning of John 1:1c.

I think you meant 'ellipses' [...] rather than 'parentheses'. These are regularly used in scholarly quoting. They can be used honestly or dishonestly. I see the JWs as carefully using them honestly.
 
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Samael_Khan

Goosebender
......................
Unlike calm, I do have the books I quoted from in my last post.

I also have the NT Grammars by leading Trinitarian scholars from which I found the information about the use and non-use of the article. They have given me the information I needed to find all the honest examples (and the exceptions) that are needed to understand the intended meaning of John 1:1c.

Thats cool then.

Honestly I don't see why people make such a big deal of John 1:1 as it is ambiguous at best. People should be able to support their viewpoint using verses which have no controversy surrounding them or at least the context of John 1 to prove their viewpoint.
 

tigger2

Active Member
It's such a big deal because (as translated by most Trinitarians) it is best 'proof 'that Trinitarians have. Some Trinitarian scholars will admit alternate translations to most other 'proofs' but John 1:1c is the last one they will allow to go.

Unfortunately there is no other scripture in the NT Greek text which uses theos as it is used in John 1:1c (theos as p.n. written before the verb). But I have found two scriptures in the OT Greek Septuagint: Judges 6:31 and 3 Kings (1 Kings in our Bibles today) 18:27.

How are they translated by trinitarian scholars?
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
It's such a big deal because (as translated by most Trinitarians) it is best 'proof 'that Trinitarians have. Some Trinitarian scholars will admit alternate translations to most other 'proofs' but John 1:1c is the last one they will allow to go.

Unfortunately there is no other scripture in the NT Greek text which uses theos as it is used in John 1:1c (theos as p.n. written before the verb). But I have found two scriptures in the OT Greek Septuagint: Judges 6:31 and 3 Kings (1 Kings in our Bibles today) 18:27.

How are they translated by trinitarian scholars?

I dunno dude. It is all Greek to me...

The best person here to speak to to discuss the Trinity with in my opinion would be Shiranui117. We had an in depth discussion on the Trinity and it is apparent that the Greek Orthodox Trinity is different and is older than the Western Trinity, thus has a different interpretation of the text.

Also there are alternatives besides the Trinity that address the problem of the relationship between Christ, The Holy Spirit and the Father better.

My view: the NT writers didn't fully understand the relationship between them themselves, hence the confusion and debating in the beginning of the church and today. I haven't come across any view that doesn't stretch the meaning of certain verses though.
 

tigger2

Active Member
I dunno dude. It is all Greek to me...

The best person here to speak to to discuss the Trinity with in my opinion would be Shiranui117. We had an in depth discussion on the Trinity and it is apparent that the Greek Orthodox Trinity is different and is older than the Western Trinity, thus has a different interpretation of the text.

Also there are alternatives besides the Trinity that address the problem of the relationship between Christ, The Holy Spirit and the Father better.

My view: the NT writers didn't fully understand the relationship between them themselves, hence the confusion and debating in the beginning of the church and today. I haven't come across any view that doesn't stretch the meaning of certain verses though.

Septuagint Old Testament Bilingual (Greek / English) - 1

NETS: Electronic Edition
 

calm

Active Member
It's such a big deal because (as translated by most Trinitarians) it is best 'proof 'that Trinitarians have. Some Trinitarian scholars will admit alternate translations to most other 'proofs' but John 1:1c is the last one they will allow to go.

Unfortunately there is no other scripture in the NT Greek text which uses theos as it is used in John 1:1c (theos as p.n. written before the verb). But I have found two scriptures in the OT Greek Septuagint: Judges 6:31 and 3 Kings (1 Kings in our Bibles today) 18:27.

How are they translated by trinitarian scholars?
It's no big deal because it's"the best proof." It's a big deal because the Watchtower fakes God's Word.
Interestingly, also in the Pe-sh-itta (its oldest manuscripts date back to the 5th century, but its beginnings (for the Old Testament) date back to the 1st century) "God was the Word" is translated.

You have to read from right to left. And "Miltha" is the "Word"

http://pe****ta.org
upload_2019-7-20_22-45-20.png
 
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tigger2

Active Member
It's no big deal because it's"the best proof." It's a big deal because the Watchtower fakes God's Word.
Interestingly, also in the Pe-sh-itta (its oldest manuscripts date back to the 5th century, but its beginnings (for the Old Testament) date back to the 1st century) "God was the Word" is translated.

You have to read from right to left. And "Miltha" is the "Word"

http://pe****ta.org
View attachment 31135

John 1:1 and the Coptic VersionsJohn 1:1 and the Coptic Versions
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
@tigger2


This is unusual. @calm is giving examples from experts (post #389) that support the Jehovahs Witnesses' translation of "a God". What is happening here? Did I miss something in your debate?

Clear
δρτωτζνεω
 

calm

Active Member
here the opinion of experts. @Clear


Dr. J. J. Griesback
: "So numerous and clear are the arguments and testimonies of Scriptures in favor of the true Deity of Christ, that I can hardly imagine how, upon the admission of the Divine authority of Scripture, and with regard to fair rules of interpretation, this doctrine can by any man be called in doubt. Especially the passage John 1:1 is so clear and so superior to all exception, that by no daring efforts of either commentators or critics can it be snatched out of the hands of the defenders of the truth."

Dr. Eugene A. Nida (Head of the Translation Department of the American Bible Society Translators of the GOOD NEWS BIBLE): "With regard to John 1:1 there is, of course, a complication simply because the NEW WORLD TRANSLATION was apparently done by persons who did not take seriously the syntax of the Greek". ( Bill and Joan Cetnar Questions for Jehovah's Witnesses "who love the truth" p..55

Dr. William Barclay (University of Glasgow, Scotland): "The deliberate distortion of truth by this sect is seen in their New Testament translations. John 1:1 translated:'. . . the Word was a god'.a translation which is grammatically impossible. it is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest. THE EXPOSITORY TIMES Nov, 1985

Dr. B. F. Westcott (Whose Greek text is used in JW KINGDOM INTERLINEAR): "The predicate (God) stands emphatically first, as in 4:24. It is necessarily without the article . . . No idea of inferiority of nature is suggested by the form of expression, which simply affirms the true Deity of the Word . . . in the third clause `the Word' is declared to be `God' and so included in the unity of the Godhead." The Gospel According to St. John (Eerdmans,1953- reprint) p. 3, (The Bible Collector, July-December, 1971, p. 12.)

Dr. Anthony Hoekema, commented: Their New World Translation of the Bible is by no means an objective rendering of the sacred text into Modern English, but is a biased translation in which many of the peculiar teachings of the Watchtower Society are smuggled into the text of the Bible itself (The Four Major Cults, pp. 238, 239].

Dr. Ernest C. Colwell (University of Chicago): "A definite predicate nominative has the article when it follows the verb; it does not have the article when it precedes the verb; . . .this statement cannot be regarded as strange in the prologue of the gospel which reaches its climax in the confession of Thomas. `My Lord and my God.' " John 20:28

Dr. F. F. Bruce (University of Manchester, England): "Much is made by Arian amateur grammarians of the omission of the definite article with `God' in the phrase `And the Word was God'. Such an omission is common with nouns in a predicate construction. `a god' would be totally indefensible."

Dr. Paul L. Kaufman (Portland OR.): "The Jehovah's Witness people evidence an abysmal ignorance of the basic tenets of Greek grammar in their mistranslation of John 1:1."

Dr. Charles L. Feinberg (La Mirada CA.): "I can assure you that the rendering which the Jehovah's Witnesses give John 1:1 is not held by any reputable Greek scholar."

Dr. Robert Countess, who wrote a doctoral dissertation on the Greek text of the New World Translation, concluded that the The Christ of the New World Translation "has been sharply unsuccessful in keeping doctrinal considerations from influencing the actual translation .... It must be viewed as a radically biased piece of work. At some points it is actually dishonest. At others it is neither modern nor scholarly "78 No wonder British scholar H.H. Rowley asserted, "From beginning to end this volume is a shining example of how the Bible should not be translated."79 Indeed, Rowley said, this translation is "an insult to the Word of God."

Dr. Harry A. Sturz: (Dr. Sturz is Chairman of the Language Department and Professor of Greek at Biola College) "Therefore, the NWT rendering: "the Word was a god" is not a "literal" but an ungrammatical and tendential translation. A literal translation in English can be nothing other than: "the word was God." THE BIBLE COLLECTOR July - December, 1971 p. 12

Dr. J. Johnson of California State University, Long Beach. When asked to comment on the Greek, said, "No justification whatsoever for translating theos en ho logos as 'the Word was a god'. There is no syntactical parallel to Acts 23:6 where there is a statement in indirect discourse. Jn.1:1 is direct.. I am neither a Christian nor a Trinitarian.

A. T. Robertson: "So in John 1:1 theos en ho logos the meaning has to be the Logos was God, -not God was the Logos." A New short Grammar of the Greek Testament, AT. Robertson and W. Hersey Davis (Baker Book House, p. 279.

E. M. Sidebottom:"...the tendency to write 'the Word was divine' for theos en ho Iogos springs from a reticence to attribute the full Christian position to john. The Christ of the Fourth Gospel (S.P.C.K., 1961), p. 461.

C. K. Barrett: "The absence of the article indicates that the Word is God, but is not the only being of whom this is true; if ho theos had been written it would have implied that no divine being existed outside the second person of the Trinity." The Gospel According to St. John (S.P.C.K., 1955), p. 76.

C. H. Dodd: "On this analogy, the meaning of _theos en ho logos will be that the ousia of ho logos, that which it truly is, is rightly denominated theos... That is the ousia of ho theos (the personal God of Abraham,) the Father goes without saying. In fact, the Nicene homoousios to patri is a perfect paraphrase." "New Testament Translation Problems the bible Translator, 28, 1 (Jan. 1977), P. 104.

Randolph 0. Yeager: "Only sophomores in Greek grammar are going to translate ..and the Word was a God.' The article with logos, shows that to logos is thesubject of the verb en and the fact that theos is without the article designates it as the predicate nominative. The emphatic position of theos demands that we translate '...and the Word was God.' John is not saying as Jehovah's Witnesses are fond of teaching that Jesus was only one of many Gods. He is saying precisely the opposite." The Renaissance New Testament, Vol. 4 (Renaissance Press, 1980), P. 4.

Henry Alford: "Theos must then be taken as implying God, in substance and essence,--not ho theos, 'the Father,' in person. It noes not = theios; nor is it to be rendered a God--but, as in sarx engeneto, sarx expresses that state into which the Divine Word entered by a-definite act, so in theos en, theos expresses that essence which was His en arche:--that He was very God . So that this first verse must be connected thus: the Logos was from eternity,--was with God (the Father),--and was Himself God." (Alford's Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary, Vol. I, Part II Guardian 'press 1976 ; originally published 1871). p. 681.

Donald Guthrie: "The absence of the article with Theos has misled some into t inking teat the correct understanding of the statement would be that 'the word was a God' (or divine), but this is grammatically indefensible since Theos is a predicate." New Testament Theology (InterVarsity Press, 1981), p. 327.

Bruce M. Metzger, Professor of New Testament Language and literature at Princeton Theological Seminary said: "Far more pernicious in this same verse is the rendering, . . . `and the Word was a god,' with the following footnotes: " `A god,' In contrast with `the God' ". It must be stated quite frankly that, if the Jehovah's Witnesses take this translation seriously, they are polytheists. In view of the additional light which is available during this age of Grace, such a representation is even more reprehensible than were the heathenish, polytheistic errors into which ancient Israel was so prone to fall. As a matter of solid fact, however, such a rendering is a frightful mistranslation." "The Jehovah's Witnesses and Jesus Christ," Theology Today (April 1953), p. 75.

James Moffatt: "'The Word was God . . .And the Word became flesh,' simply means he Word was divine . . . . And the Word became human.' The Nicene faith, in the Chalcedon definition, was intended to conserve both of these truths against theories that failed to present Jesus as truly God and truly man ...." Jesus Christ the Same(Abingdon-Cokesbury, 1945), p. 61.

E. C. Colwell: "...predicate nouns preceding the verb cannot be regarded as indefinite -or qualitative simply because they lack the article; it could be regarded as indefinite or qualitative only if this is demanded by the context,and in the case of John l:l this is not so." A Definite Rule for the Use of the Article in the Greek New Testament," Journal of Biblical Literature, 52 (1933), p. 20.

Philip B. Harner: "Perhaps the clause could be translated, 'the Word had the same nature as God.' This would be one way of representing John's thought, which is, as I understand it,"that ho logos, no less than ho theos, had the nature of theos.""(Qualitative Anarthrous Predicate Nouns Mark 15:39 and John 1:1," journal of Biblical Literature, 92, 1 (March 1973), p. 87.

Philip Harner states in the Journal of Biblical Literature, 92, 1 (March 1973) on Jn.1:1 "In vs. 1c the Johannine hymn is bordering on the usage of 'God' for the Son, but by omitting the article it avoids any suggestion of personal identification of the Word with the Father. And for Gentile readers the line also avoids any suggestion that the Word was a second God in any Hellenistic sense." (pg. 86. Harner notes the source of this quote: Brown, John I-XII, 24)
 
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calm

Active Member
I am sorry. I noticed that my post(#385) actually contained some wrong statements and confusion. Been deleted.
To the coptic of John 1:1 :
It may be that perhaps the literal translation of Sahidic Coptic: "a God" is. Nevertheless one has to take into account that all other old translations don't write "a god" .

Pe****ta: "God was the word"
(its oldest manuscripts date back to the 5th century, but its beginnings (for the Old Testament) date back to the 1st century)
http://pe****ta.org

All old Greek translations (especially the Codex Sinaticus) write: "the word was God". :
John 1:1, "The word was a god" | CARM.org

Also many experts agree that the Greek original texts reflect "the word was God" and not "a god".
Scholars on Jn.1:1
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
NOTE : BECAUSE THE POST “CALM” DELETED A PRIOR POST SUPPORTING THE GRAMMATICAL CORRECTNESS OF JOHN 1:1C TRANSLATED AS “A GOD”, THE NUMBERING OF POSTS HAS CHANGED.


1) In post #389, @calm presented a list of Greek scholars who SUPPORTED the translation of John 1:1c as “…And the Word was A God”.

2) In post #390 @Clear wrote : “This is unusual. @calm is giving examples from experts (post #389) that support the Jehovahs Witnesses' translation of "a God". What is happening here? Did I miss something in your debate?

Then @calm deleted the post containing the multiple scholars and their data supporting the translation of “And the Word was A God” and replaced it with a new post.

3) In Current post #391, Calm says : “I am sorry. I noticed that my post(#385) actually contained some wrong statements and confusion. Been deleted.”


I might as well point out that the list of scholars that Calm offered which refuted his claim had more and better accurate data AGAINST Calms' claim, than the current list of scholars have IN FAVOR of @Calms claim.

I also might as well point out that at least 5 of the scholars in this “new list” ALSO undermine his claim by pointing out that it is context and not grammar that determine the correct translation. (Simply "cutting and pasting" is not the best way to "do scholarship").

Whatever any of you decide, I hope your various spiritual journeys in life are good and wonderful and full of insights.

Clear
δρδρεισεω
 

tigger2

Active Member
Calm wrote: All old Greek translations (especially the Codex Sinaticus) write: "the word was God".

This is really a strange thing to say! All NT Greek manuscripts (including Codex Sinaiticus, of course) which contain John 1:1c say the same thing: kai theos en ho logos. Even the earliest (p66, mid-second century) has this same wording. The NT Greek texts used by translators today were made from these manuscripts, so they all also say kai theos en ho logos at John 1:1c.

When translated into English, Bible writers all use these same Greek words.

As a study of all John's other uses of clauses parallel to John 1:1c found in the NT Greek texts, they are all indefinite and translators have properly added "a" before the predicate noun. If they weren't trinitarians, they would have done the same at John 1:1c: 'a god.'

In the case of this particular verse the OP question should be, "Why do Trinitarians falsify the Bible?"
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
@calm claimed : “All old Greek translations (especially the Codex Sinaticus) write: "the word was God". (post #391)

@tigger2 replied : “This is really a strange thing to say! All NT Greek manuscripts (including Codex Sinaiticus, of course) which contain John 1:1c say the same thing: kai theos en ho logos. Even the earliest (p66, mid-second century has this same wording. The NT Greek texts used by translators today were made from these manuscripts, so they all also say kai theos en ho logos at John 1:1c.”


I was so surprised by @Calms accidental posting of a list of scholars with data that undermined his claim that I didn't notice this quote of @Calms that @tigger2 described as "strange". I have to agree with Tigger2 that Calms’ statement is not only strange, but it goes beyond “strange” and enters the land of “bizzare”.

ALL early Greek manuscripts (especially the Codex Sinaiticus) say EXACTLY the same thing and ALL of them lack the article. I LOOKED at the GN-4 (translators Greek) for any variants and there are NONE listed among THOUSANDS of Codices and Papyri, Uncials, etc that have been sampled.

The NA-28 ALSO lists NO variants, NOT A SINGLE VARIANT on John 1:1c.

Forum members. IF we leave the world of good and authentic and objective data and enter the world where individuals simply make claims that are unverifiable (perhaps hoping no one will notice?) then the religious forums will turn to chaos.

This is yet another reason Calm lost this debate to Tigger2 and others. CUTTING AND PASTING without understanding or without at least some verification of the data, DOESN’T WORK.

Clear
δρδρφιτωω
 

calm

Active Member
Calm wrote: All old Greek translations (especially the Codex Sinaticus) write: "the word was God".

This is really a strange thing to say! All NT Greek manuscripts (including Codex Sinaiticus, of course) which contain John 1:1c say the same thing: kai theos en ho logos. Even the earliest (p66, mid-second century) has this same wording. The NT Greek texts used by translators today were made from these manuscripts, so they all also say kai theos en ho logos at John 1:1c.

When translated into English, Bible writers all use these same Greek words.

As a study of all John's other uses of clauses parallel to John 1:1c found in the NT Greek texts, they are all indefinite and translators have properly added "a" before the predicate noun. If they weren't trinitarians, they would have done the same at John 1:1c: 'a god.'

In the case of this particular verse the OP question should be, "Why do Trinitarians falsify the Bible?"
@Clear
here the opinion of experts.

Dr. J. J. Griesback: "So numerous and clear are the arguments and testimonies of Scriptures in favor of the true Deity of Christ, that I can hardly imagine how, upon the admission of the Divine authority of Scripture, and with regard to fair rules of interpretation, this doctrine can by any man be called in doubt. Especially the passage John 1:1 is so clear and so superior to all exception, that by no daring efforts of either commentators or critics can it be snatched out of the hands of the defenders of the truth."

Dr. Eugene A. Nida (Head of the Translation Department of the American Bible Society Translators of the GOOD NEWS BIBLE): "With regard to John 1:1 there is, of course, a complication simply because the NEW WORLD TRANSLATION was apparently done by persons who did not take seriously the syntax of the Greek". ( Bill and Joan Cetnar Questions for Jehovah's Witnesses "who love the truth" p..55

Dr. William Barclay (University of Glasgow, Scotland): "The deliberate distortion of truth by this sect is seen in their New Testament translations. John 1:1 translated:'. . . the Word was a god'.a translation which is grammatically impossible. it is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest. THE EXPOSITORY TIMES Nov, 1985

Dr. B. F. Westcott (Whose Greek text is used in JW KINGDOM INTERLINEAR): "The predicate (God) stands emphatically first, as in 4:24. It is necessarily without the article . . . No idea of inferiority of nature is suggested by the form of expression, which simply affirms the true Deity of the Word . . . in the third clause `the Word' is declared to be `God' and so included in the unity of the Godhead." The Gospel According to St. John (Eerdmans,1953- reprint) p. 3, (The Bible Collector, July-December, 1971, p. 12.)

Dr. Anthony Hoekema, commented: Their New World Translation of the Bible is by no means an objective rendering of the sacred text into Modern English, but is a biased translation in which many of the peculiar teachings of the Watchtower Society are smuggled into the text of the Bible itself (The Four Major Cults, pp. 238, 239].

Dr. Ernest C. Colwell (University of Chicago): "A definite predicate nominative has the article when it follows the verb; it does not have the article when it precedes the verb; . . .this statement cannot be regarded as strange in the prologue of the gospel which reaches its climax in the confession of Thomas. `My Lord and my God.' " John 20:28

Dr. F. F. Bruce (University of Manchester, England): "Much is made by Arian amateur grammarians of the omission of the definite article with `God' in the phrase `And the Word was God'. Such an omission is common with nouns in a predicate construction. `a god' would be totally indefensible."

Dr. Paul L. Kaufman (Portland OR.): "The Jehovah's Witness people evidence an abysmal ignorance of the basic tenets of Greek grammar in their mistranslation of John 1:1."

Dr. Charles L. Feinberg (La Mirada CA.): "I can assure you that the rendering which the Jehovah's Witnesses give John 1:1 is not held by any reputable Greek scholar."

Dr. Robert Countess, who wrote a doctoral dissertation on the Greek text of the New World Translation, concluded that the The Christ of the New World Translation "has been sharply unsuccessful in keeping doctrinal considerations from influencing the actual translation .... It must be viewed as a radically biased piece of work. At some points it is actually dishonest. At others it is neither modern nor scholarly "78 No wonder British scholar H.H. Rowley asserted, "From beginning to end this volume is a shining example of how the Bible should not be translated."79 Indeed, Rowley said, this translation is "an insult to the Word of God."

Dr. Harry A. Sturz: (Dr. Sturz is Chairman of the Language Department and Professor of Greek at Biola College) "Therefore, the NWT rendering: "the Word was a god" is not a "literal" but an ungrammatical and tendential translation. A literal translation in English can be nothing other than: "the word was God." THE BIBLE COLLECTOR July - December, 1971 p. 12

Dr. J. Johnson of California State University, Long Beach. When asked to comment on the Greek, said, "No justification whatsoever for translating theos en ho logos as 'the Word was a god'. There is no syntactical parallel to Acts 23:6 where there is a statement in indirect discourse. Jn.1:1 is direct.. I am neither a Christian nor a Trinitarian.

A. T. Robertson: "So in John 1:1 theos en ho logos the meaning has to be the Logos was God, -not God was the Logos." A New short Grammar of the Greek Testament, AT. Robertson and W. Hersey Davis (Baker Book House, p. 279.

E. M. Sidebottom:"...the tendency to write 'the Word was divine' for theos en ho Iogos springs from a reticence to attribute the full Christian position to john. The Christ of the Fourth Gospel (S.P.C.K., 1961), p. 461.

C. K. Barrett: "The absence of the article indicates that the Word is God, but is not the only being of whom this is true; if ho theos had been written it would have implied that no divine being existed outside the second person of the Trinity." The Gospel According to St. John (S.P.C.K., 1955), p. 76.

C. H. Dodd: "On this analogy, the meaning of _theos en ho logos will be that the ousia of ho logos, that which it truly is, is rightly denominated theos... That is the ousia of ho theos (the personal God of Abraham,) the Father goes without saying. In fact, the Nicene homoousios to patri is a perfect paraphrase." "New Testament Translation Problems the bible Translator, 28, 1 (Jan. 1977), P. 104.

Randolph 0. Yeager: "Only sophomores in Greek grammar are going to translate ..and the Word was a God.' The article with logos, shows that to logos is thesubject of the verb en and the fact that theos is without the article designates it as the predicate nominative. The emphatic position of theos demands that we translate '...and the Word was God.' John is not saying as Jehovah's Witnesses are fond of teaching that Jesus was only one of many Gods. He is saying precisely the opposite." The Renaissance New Testament, Vol. 4 (Renaissance Press, 1980), P. 4.

Henry Alford: "Theos must then be taken as implying God, in substance and essence,--not ho theos, 'the Father,' in person. It noes not = theios; nor is it to be rendered a God--but, as in sarx engeneto, sarx expresses that state into which the Divine Word entered by a-definite act, so in theos en, theos expresses that essence which was His en arche:--that He was very God . So that this first verse must be connected thus: the Logos was from eternity,--was with God (the Father),--and was Himself God." (Alford's Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary, Vol. I, Part II Guardian 'press 1976 ; originally published 1871). p. 681.

Donald Guthrie: "The absence of the article with Theos has misled some into t inking teat the correct understanding of the statement would be that 'the word was a God' (or divine), but this is grammatically indefensible since Theos is a predicate." New Testament Theology (InterVarsity Press, 1981), p. 327.

Bruce M. Metzger, Professor of New Testament Language and literature at Princeton Theological Seminary said: "Far more pernicious in this same verse is the rendering, . . . `and the Word was a god,' with the following footnotes: " `A god,' In contrast with `the God' ". It must be stated quite frankly that, if the Jehovah's Witnesses take this translation seriously, they are polytheists. In view of the additional light which is available during this age of Grace, such a representation is even more reprehensible than were the heathenish, polytheistic errors into which ancient Israel was so prone to fall. As a matter of solid fact, however, such a rendering is a frightful mistranslation." "The Jehovah's Witnesses and Jesus Christ," Theology Today (April 1953), p. 75.

James Moffatt: "'The Word was God . . .And the Word became flesh,' simply means he Word was divine . . . . And the Word became human.' The Nicene faith, in the Chalcedon definition, was intended to conserve both of these truths against theories that failed to present Jesus as truly God and truly man ...." Jesus Christ the Same(Abingdon-Cokesbury, 1945), p. 61.

E. C. Colwell: "...predicate nouns preceding the verb cannot be regarded as indefinite -or qualitative simply because they lack the article; it could be regarded as indefinite or qualitative only if this is demanded by the context,and in the case of John l:l this is not so." A Definite Rule for the Use of the Article in the Greek New Testament," Journal of Biblical Literature, 52 (1933), p. 20.

Philip B. Harner: "Perhaps the clause could be translated, 'the Word had the same nature as God.' This would be one way of representing John's thought, which is, as I understand it,"that ho logos, no less than ho theos, had the nature of theos.""(Qualitative Anarthrous Predicate Nouns Mark 15:39 and John 1:1," journal of Biblical Literature, 92, 1 (March 1973), p. 87.

Philip Harner states in the Journal of Biblical Literature, 92, 1 (March 1973) on Jn.1:1 "In vs. 1c the Johannine hymn is bordering on the usage of 'God' for the Son, but by omitting the article it avoids any suggestion of personal identification of the Word with the Father. And for Gentile readers the line also avoids any suggestion that the Word was a second God in any Hellenistic sense." (pg. 86. Harner notes the source of this quote: Brown, John I-XII, 24)
 
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calm

Active Member
Calm wrote: All old Greek translations (especially the Codex Sinaticus) write: "the word was God".

This is really a strange thing to say! All NT Greek manuscripts (including Codex Sinaiticus, of course) which contain John 1:1c say the same thing: kai theos en ho logos. Even the earliest (p66, mid-second century) has this same wording. The NT Greek texts used by translators today were made from these manuscripts, so they all also say kai theos en ho logos at John 1:1c.

When translated into English, Bible writers all use these same Greek words.

As a study of all John's other uses of clauses parallel to John 1:1c found in the NT Greek texts, they are all indefinite and translators have properly added "a" before the predicate noun. If they weren't trinitarians, they would have done the same at John 1:1c: 'a god.'

In the case of this particular verse the OP question should be, "Why do Trinitarians falsify the Bible?"
@Clear
Scholars' explination for the "missing" definite article!

John 1:1
And the Word was God (kai theos e¯n ho logos). By exact and careful language John denied Sabellianism by not saying ho theos e¯n ho logos. That would mean that all of God was expressed in ho logos and the terms would be interchangeable, each having the article. The subject is made plain by the article (ho logos) and the predicate without it (theos) just as in Joh_4:24 pneuma ho theos can only mean "God is spirit," not "spirit is God." So in 1Jo_4:16 ho theos agape¯ estin can only mean "God is love," not "love is God" as a so-called Christian scientist would confusedly say. For the article with the predicate see Robertson, Grammar, pp. 767f. So in Joh_1:14 ho Logos sarx egeneto, "the Word became flesh," not "the flesh became Word." Luther argues that here John disposes of Arianism also because the Logos was eternally God, fellowship of Father and Son, what Origen called the Eternal Generation of the Son (each necessary to the other). Thus in the Trinity we see personal fellowship on an equality. (Robertson's Word Pictures)
1x1.gif


And the Word was God (kai theos e¯n ho logos)
In the Greek order, and God was the Word, which is followed by Anglo-Saxon, Wyc., and Tynd. But Theos, God, is the predicate and not the subject of the proposition. The subject must be the Word; for John is not trying to show who is God, but who is the Word. Notice that Theos is without the article, which could not have been omitted if he had meant to designate the word as God; because, in that event, Theos would have been ambiguous; perhaps a God. (Vincent's Word Studies)



The notable Greek scholars agree, by proper Greek grammer, the reason that the article is omitted here in John 1:1, is because John was defining who the "Word" was, not who "God" was! To include the article in John 1:1, would change the entire structure and meaning of the verse to be defining who "God" was, instead of defining who the "Word" was! Instead of saying "and the Word was God," by including the article it would say "and God was the Word" which was not the intent of John!

No doubt the Watchtower is aware of this fact, but has hidden it from their flock. If they were to reveal this truth to their subjects, their followers would realize they are lying about their false teachings about the Christ and this anti-christ group would cease to exist. Since John 1:1 is a key scripture identifying that Jesus is God, it is most vital for them to continue to hide the truth! Thomas knew the truth, and declared the deity of Christ when he finally believed:

John 20:28-29 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. [29] Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Source: John 1:1 What do scholars say?
 
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JJ50

Well-Known Member
Scholars' explination for the "missing" definite article!

John 1:1
And the Word was God (kai theos e¯n ho logos). By exact and careful language John denied Sabellianism by not saying ho theos e¯n ho logos. That would mean that all of God was expressed in ho logos and the terms would be interchangeable, each having the article. The subject is made plain by the article (ho logos) and the predicate without it (theos) just as in Joh_4:24 pneuma ho theos can only mean "God is spirit," not "spirit is God." So in 1Jo_4:16 ho theos agape¯ estin can only mean "God is love," not "love is God" as a so-called Christian scientist would confusedly say. For the article with the predicate see Robertson, Grammar, pp. 767f. So in Joh_1:14 ho Logos sarx egeneto, "the Word became flesh," not "the flesh became Word." Luther argues that here John disposes of Arianism also because the Logos was eternally God, fellowship of Father and Son, what Origen called the Eternal Generation of the Son (each necessary to the other). Thus in the Trinity we see personal fellowship on an equality. (Robertson's Word Pictures)
1x1.gif


And the Word was God (kai theos e¯n ho logos)
In the Greek order, and God was the Word, which is followed by Anglo-Saxon, Wyc., and Tynd. But Theos, God, is the predicate and not the subject of the proposition. The subject must be the Word; for John is not trying to show who is God, but who is the Word. Notice that Theos is without the article, which could not have been omitted if he had meant to designate the word as God; because, in that event, Theos would have been ambiguous; perhaps a God. (Vincent's Word Studies)



The notable Greek scholars agree, by proper Greek grammer, the reason that the article is omitted here in John 1:1, is because John was defining who the "Word" was, not who "God" was! To include the article in John 1:1, would change the entire structure and meaning of the verse to be defining who "God" was, instead of defining who the "Word" was! Instead of saying "and the Word was God," by including the article it would say "and God was the Word" which was not the intent of John!

No doubt the Watchtower is aware of this fact, but has hidden it from their flock. If they were to reveal this truth to their subjects, their followers would realize they are lying about their false teachings about the Christ and this anti-christ group would cease to exist. Since John 1:1 is a key scripture identifying that Jesus is God, it is most vital for them to continue to hide the truth! Thomas knew the truth, and declared the deity of Christ when he finally believed:

John 20:28-29 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. [29] Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Source: John 1:1 What do scholars say?
I wonder how many people actually read your lengthy posts? Best to keep them much shorter, imo.
 

calm

Active Member
NOTE : BECAUSE THE POST “CALM” DELETED A PRIOR POST SUPPORTING THE GRAMMATICAL CORRECTNESS OF JOHN 1:1C TRANSLATED AS “A GOD”, THE NUMBERING OF POSTS HAS CHANGED.


1) In post #389, @calm presented a list of Greek scholars who SUPPORTED the translation of John 1:1c as “…And the Word was A God”.

2) In post #390 @Clear wrote : “This is unusual. @calm is giving examples from experts (post #389) that support the Jehovahs Witnesses' translation of "a God". What is happening here? Did I miss something in your debate?

Then @calm deleted the post containing the multiple scholars and their data supporting the translation of “And the Word was A God” and replaced it with a new post.

3) In Current post #391, Calm says : “I am sorry. I noticed that my post(#385) actually contained some wrong statements and confusion. Been deleted.”


I might as well point out that the list of scholars that Calm offered which refuted his claim had more and better accurate data AGAINST Calms' claim, than the current list of scholars have IN FAVOR of @Calms claim.

I also might as well point out that at least 5 of the scholars in this “new list” ALSO undermine his claim by pointing out that it is context and not grammar that determine the correct translation. (Simply "cutting and pasting" is not the best way to "do scholarship").

Whatever any of you decide, I hope your various spiritual journeys in life are good and wonderful and full of insights.

Clear
δρδρεισεω
As I said, it could be that the literal translation of Sadic Coptic is "a god".I didn't even deny it. And the scholars I mentioned afterwards do not refer at all to the Sadic Coptic but to the Greek scriptures. You connect things that have nothing to do with each other.
But you have to consider that the Coptic language is different from Hebrew and Greek.
"a god" can also mean to be of the same nature as god.
Accordingly, this is no contradiction at all to the Trinity.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Just for clarity : I am NOT a Jehovahs Witness. I DO believe their translation of the bible has many errors and I do not like their translation. BUT, I agree with them that their translation of John 1:1c (i.e. third phrase) is perfectly correct grammatically. Ancient Context and NOT grammar will determine the correct translation of this phrase. - Clear




1) @CALMS CUT AND PASTES OFTEN ARGUE AGAINST HIS POSITION



Hi @calm;

The point of my last post was that your “accidental” posting of scholars who disagreed with you had better objective data and their reasoning was better than your intentional posting of the scholars who are trying to justify adding the article where it doesn’t exist. You need to READ what you are posting and try to understand it.

For example, even in this last post where you are trying to support your theory, I noticed at least 5 scholars who are NOT arguing your claim is correct. For example, you quote Philip Harner (TWICE).


Philip B. Harner: "Perhaps the clause could be translated, 'the Word had the same nature as God.' This would be one way of representing John's thought, which is, as I understand it,"that ho logos, no less than ho theos, had the nature of theos.""(Qualitative Anarthrous Predicate Nouns Mark 15:39 and John 1:1," journal of Biblical Literature, 92, 1 (March 1973), p. 87. (post #396 by Calm)

YOU repeated Harners words "a god" can also mean to be of the same nature as god.”. This is correct, but, consider what Harner is describing. A God of any type would have some qualification for him to be of the type of being we call "God".

IF one assumes Harner knows Greek, then his point that “ho Theos (the God) had the nature of Theos (A God)" makes this same point. This is (I think), in accordance with @tigger2 and his theology. There is something about the Logos which qualifies him to be called “A God”. Certainly, if the Word was somehow divine, this alone qualifies him to be called a "God". This alone does not qualify THE Word to be THE God.

In Fact, the quote you offered from Harner makes this point as well. Here is your quote (italic/bold is mine) : Philip Harner states in the Journal of Biblical Literature, 92, 1 (March 1973) on Jn.1:1 "In vs. 1c the Johannine hymn is bordering on the usage of 'God' for the Son, but by omitting the article it avoids any suggestion of personal identification of the Word with the Father. And for Gentile readers the line also avoids any suggestion that the Word was a second God in any Hellenistic sense." (pg. 86. Harner notes the source of this quote: Brown, John I-XII, 24)

Harner explains that the language of John 1:1c “is bordering on” the use of “God” for the son. Note Harner DOESN’T say the language actually uses “THE God” for the son, but “borders on” the use of “THE God” for the son. Thus even Harner qualifies their difference.

Harners next phrase continues “BUT”…..by omitting the article it avoids any suggestion of PERSONAL IDENTIFICATION of the Word with the Father.” That is, the Word in this Sentence is NOT and CANNOT be personally Identified with the Father.

And, Harner points out that the sentence avoids the taint of Hellenistic plurality of equal Gods, but instead allows the early Henotheistic model to remain intact. The NON Hellenistic model seems to be the model Tigger2 is avoiding as well. There is something about the Word that qualifies the Word to be a God, but he is not equal to THE God like the hellenists who had multiple Gods of similar power.

It is in such a fashion that your quotes OFTEN undermine and argue AGAINST your theory. You simply aren’t reading your quotes well enough and, since you do not read Koine Greek, you do not understand the implications of it’s grammar. THIS is another reason why you lost this debate with Tigger2. You were never going to win this debate based on grammatical rules because Tigger2 was always correct regarding Koine grammar.




20 WHAT IF JOHN MEANT TO WRITE THE SENTENCE AS IT STANDS AND LEFT OUT THE ARTICLE ON PURPOSE?

Just a point Regarding John 1:1c “…Και θεος ην ο λογος.”

The trinitarian arguments center about the claim that we should read the sentence as if there was an article intended “and [the] Word was [the] God” despite the fact that, grammatically, the sentence reads “and the word was [a] God.” without the article.

While one may argue from the standpoint of doctrinal context, that John meant to add the word “THE” in front of God, the sentence itself does not add the article. And there are no versions of this Greek phrase in any Greek manuscript that adds the article.


DOES OUR PERSONAL MOTIVE TO ADD AN ARTICLE STEM FROM GRAMMATICAL NEED OR FROM OUR DOCTRINAL DISCOMFORT?
Assume, for a moment, that John wrote the sentence as he intended it to read grammatically.

If you do read it as John wrote it grammatically, ("And the Word was a God") you will find that it is either comfortable to you or uncomfortable to you. The reason for any discomfort is not because the grammar is offensive, but because the doctrine may disagree with your theological model.

THIS is the actual problem for scholars as well.

Individuals (including scholars) whose theological model is upset by how John wrote the sentence grammatically (“and The Word was A God”) WANT to add the article (“and The word was The God”) and thus many, many, many attempts are made or to justify why the article "should be" present, then it is, in fact not present.

Individuals whose theological model is comfortable with how John wrote the sentence grammatically do not have any need to make any arguments whatsoever. They are able to simply read and use the sentence as it stands.


In any case and whatever various readers come to believe, I hope your journeys are full of joy and wonderful insights.

Clear
δρφιειτζω
 
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RESOLUTION

Active Member
You have to prove the less than credible things in the Bible are factual, with verifiable evidence to back them up. But of course you have none, you are just spouting empty air.
to


Logically, the discussion is :-
"Why do Jehovah's Witnesses falsify the Bible?"
To do this means we accept the bible gives an account about different aspects of persons lives and also the teachings of God.
The issue is whether JW's actually make false representation of what it teaches.

As I know some of what we are discussing I can make a factual answer based on the evidence of the bible itself. Which makes your argument without credence and without factual evidence.
Do you not think it is time to stop talking till you know what you are talking about?
 
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