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74x12
Well-Known Member
Look forward to seeing your contributions.
Audie
Veteran Member
Welcome!
Dill
New Member
Oh another Dill...are we related?Dills are fairly common on these boards.....you'll spot them no doubt.
One thing I would like to ask is....how does one go from being Pentecostal to agnostic and then to a "spiritual experience" leading to Southern Baptists? That would be interesting.....
Happy to answer!
There wasn't much choice involved in being Pentecostal. Both my parents are Apostolic Pentecostals, and so I was brought up. However, around 16, I became disenfranchised with Pentecostalism. I wasn't familiar with any evidence for the claims of Pentecostalism, and I had never had any spiritual encounters confirming their claims to truth, or any claims to any religious truth. In the absence of both internal and external evidence, I decided I was agnostic.
I began doing research in pursuit of external evidence, but as a 16-year-old, I barely scratched the surface, despite feeling that I knew a great deal. One day, a Christian friend was responding to questions I posed about Christianity, and I began to experience the immaterial presence of a being greater than me as he told the story of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection. The spiritual presence produced a surprising emotional response, and I found myself helplessly crying despite feeling upset about nothing in particular.
My friend continued, and I felt that spiritual being pressing upon my mind and will, and I knew the time had come to reject or accept His existence and submit myself to Him, knowing these choices were also connected to the story of Jesus I was hearing. I accepted, and the emotions faded, but I continued to experience that rich spiritual presence, which oftentimes still presents itself in similar ways to that day.
From then, I felt beholden to no particular denomination, but as I grew spiritually, so too did my understanding, and my beliefs began to gravitate toward those of the Southern Baptist Convention. I am not unconditionally committed to the Southern Baptist Convention, but my beliefs best align with theirs, and I have a deep appreciation for all they do.
And thus is my journey from Pentecostalism to agnosticism to Southern Baptist Convention...ism.
Thank you for sharing. I am always fascinated by the number of ways that people come to "Christianity".
When we look at the divided state of Christendom, and consider that all those 'denominations' (literally thousands of them) all claim Jesus as the Christ, and yet hold differing beliefs about so many things......how can there be one truth? Aren't all Christians supposed to be in agreement? (1 Corinthians 1:10) Why does Christ exist divided?
When we choose our 'denomination', what are we in fact choosing? How do we disagree with one 'brand' of Christianity and yet agree with another if they are all the same faith? What are your thoughts?
I love history and when I researched the history of the Israelites and then the history of the church after the death and resurrection of Jesus it becomes apparent that both went down the same track and for the very same reason....human tradition got in the way as they began to add things that Christ never taught.
If I was to ask you what is there about Pentecostalism that makes you abandon it in favor of the Southern Baptist version of the Christian faith? You may have compared the various denominations in order to accept what you settled on, but even then you don't sound 100% convinced. What is causing the nagging doubt, do you think?
Dill
New Member
Thank you for sharing. I am always fascinated by the number of ways that people come to "Christianity".
Thanks! I really enjoy your post, and I'm excited to respond! Sorry for the lateness, I got caught up in finals for summer classes, but that's all out of the way now.
This is interesting, and it's certainly disheartening that perception of truth within the body of Christ is so divided. However, I don't believe that the quantity of conflicting claims to truth within Christianity has any bearing upon the existence of objective truth about these issues over which denominations are divided. I think of evolution. The issue isn't as simple as whether or not evolution occurred. There is a spectrum of beliefs that is very nuanced, yet this multitude of beliefs doesn't cast doubt upon the existence of objective truth about these issues.
I do agree that the biblical ideal is one of all Christians unified in belief. However, Paul isn't exhorting anyone to abdicate their views for the sake of unity. This is evidenced by the many specific, contested beliefs he holds. I believe instead that Christians should engage in lively, robust dialogue about the reasons for divisions among denominations in pursuit of a meeting of minds. When two people regularly engage in conversation about things, they find themselves over time converging in their beliefs, and I believe Paul is calling for this in the Church. Unfortunately, this ideal is rarely realized. I believe the Church is divided because of the fallibility of people's mental faculties, but I believe that through reason and open-minded discourse, Christians can grow nearer to a truer interpretation of the Bible and Christ's ministry.
I believe that ideally, we're choosing a set of interpretations of the Bible and Christ's ministry that we believe best conform to the truth. All denominations that converge on some basic facts like Christ's life, death for our sins, and resurrection belong to the same faith. However, we have the ability to more specifically analyze the Bible and Jesus' ministry and come to conclusions. Denominations are structures that are shorthands for sets of beliefs, but also that provide spaces and opportunities to minister without having to confront differences of beliefs that are otherwise insignificant, but that in that context would hinder ministry. For example, if a Catholic and Southern Baptist church merged, there would be conflicts about the ways services are carried out-- issues for which there is no middle road. The time needed to resolve these differences would hinder ministry.
I abandoned Pentecostalism because of their views on corporate speaking of tongues and other divine gifts, as well as their understanding of salvation. You are right that I am not 100% convinced of the Southern Baptist interpretation of the Bible and Christ's ministry, but that is primarily because I do not feel so well-read and knowledgeable that I can be entirely convinced of every position held by the Southern Baptist Convention.
Sorry for the lengthiness of this post! I don't expect you to respond to all of it, and I promise I won't interpret all that you don't respond to as a concession.
Thanks again for taking the time to respond to my OP.
Hello again...
Civil dialogue is always welcome. Glad your finals are over and you can concentrate on other important things.
Now about your apology for the length of your response....I will apologise in advance for the length of this too.
I am extremely passionate about the Bible as I have studied it for over 40 years.
I love to analyse the whys and wherefore of everything. I was one of those "why?" kids....drove my mother nuts.
I take the position that there is just one truth but that, according to God's word, there is a powerful enemy who is determined to bend that truth in the minds of men. Paul wrote about his ability to "blind minds" which is an interesting concept. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) The mind is the processing center for all our senses, so a blinded mind results in a distortion of perceptions.....these perceptions can lead to wrong conclusions, but interestingly, Paul says that this can only happen to "unbelievers".
If I couple that with Jesus' words in Matthew 7:21-23, where he is judging those who claim him as their "Lord" yet despite their protests that they had done so many good things "in his name", he rejects them out of hand as those he "never knew"...."workers of lawlessness" even! "Never" means "not ever". Doesn't this suggest to you that just calling yourself a "Christian" and even being able to perform "powerful works" and having an appearance of following the Christian faith, is no proof of the validity of the "Christianity" that is practiced?
If we don't teach the truth, and live it every day, then we teach untruths....twisted half truths are often worse than lies.
Is a meeting of minds even possible? As time has gone on, Christianity has just become more divided. Robust dialogue goes on and despite good intentions, agreement has not materialized. Agreeing to disagree is the only option. But, is that what God wants?
Jesus said something interesting that gives us insight into how individuals are drawn to the real truth rather than to the counterfeit "truth" produced by God's enemy.
He said..."No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him..."(John 6:44)......and he repeats a few verses later...."This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” (John 6:65) So God is the one who draws people to his son. Those who do not receive this invitation will ever come to an accurate knowledge of the truth about Jesus and his role in God's purpose.
What does that mean for all of us?
Division is nothing new of course, even in Jesus' day, sectarianism had divided Judaism. However, rather than side with one group, Jesus condemned all of them. He called his disciples out of that corrupted rabble and, as the "Fine Shepherd", he led them to fresh pasture with a whole new understanding of how the Jewish religious system had failed them. The "lost sheep" found a new home, seen by the Orthodox Jews as apostates. How interesting that the real apostates did not recognize themselves as such?
Jesus castigated them at every opportunity. (Matthew 23) Any wonder they wanted him dead....it was their common solution to God's efforts to correct them. (Matthew 23:37-39) Don't listen to the Messenger, slander him....make him out to be a phony....turn people against him.....silence him! He told his disciples that the same would happen to them. (John 15:18-21)
Yes, I agree that many denominations are so diametrically opposed in their beliefs, that they will never reach agreement. How does God view this?
Looking back at Israel's history we see some common problems. It appears that the corruption of Judaism happened long before Jesus began his ministry. They were a "stiff-necked" people and tried God's patience many times, but he promised to produce their Messiah from that nation and true to his covenant, he fulfilled his side of the agreement. The Jews however, never did, which is why he abandoned them once his obligation was fulfilled.
The foretold corruption of Christianity began not long after the death of the apostles. Paul indicated that their presence was "acting as a restraint" for the apostasy that Jesus and his apostles had warned about. (2 Thessalonians 2:3-12) So it's no surprise that Christianity was carved up into followers of men.
The Catholic Church was the birth of Christendom. It was never "Christian" from its beginnings, but a pathetic fusion of weakened Christianity and pagan Roman sun worship. It held a tyrannical hold on people, based on fear, lies and ignorance for 1500 years.
The Reformation, whilst breaking the power of the Catholic Church, and giving people access to God's word, did not unite "Christians"....instead they followed influential men and broke Christianity up into literally thousands of bickering sects. In all that confusion, how are people to find the proverbial needle in a haystack?
Lacking confidence in one's beliefs is unnerving for those who love God and genuinely want to please him. But in my own case, being raised in the Anglican Church, I never felt that their teachings rang true. I left the church in my late teens, frustrated that no one had answers to my many questions, so I searched for God in other denominations. I didn't find him. Basically I saw that all of them held to a core of beliefs that just didn't sit well with me....and the only justification for them were ambiguous verses, often vaguely translated.
Asking for clarifications on those core beliefs.....the trinity...immortality of the soul....and hellfire, left me feeling empty. I was not convinced that any of those beliefs was taught in the Bible. On close investigation, I discovered that the Bible did not support any of them. All were borrowed from pagan religious concepts and grafted into the Catholic Church's doctrines centuries after Jesus died.
The Reformation carried those doctrines from Catholicism into Protestantism, perpetuating those lies right to the present day.
So if God's arch enemy has had the same kind of success with "Christianity" as he did with Judaism, what does that mean?
Matthew 7:13-14 indicates that "few" are on the road to life, whilst the "many" are happily 'deluded' and heading into a dead end.
See....you don't have to apologise..... I can talk about God and the Bible all day.
I know that is a lot to process, but my studies have been based, not just on selected proof texts, but on the Bible's overall teachings and it's very important message. What we lost in the beginning, (Genesis) is restored at the end. (Revelation) Do you know what we lost? And how we get it back? (Isaiah 55:11)
All those thousands of sects in Christendom cannot all be right....but it is sobering to consider that they could all be wrong.
What are your thoughts?
Civil dialogue is always welcome. Glad your finals are over and you can concentrate on other important things.
Now about your apology for the length of your response....I will apologise in advance for the length of this too.
I am extremely passionate about the Bible as I have studied it for over 40 years.
I love to analyse the whys and wherefore of everything. I was one of those "why?" kids....drove my mother nuts.
I take the position that there is just one truth but that, according to God's word, there is a powerful enemy who is determined to bend that truth in the minds of men. Paul wrote about his ability to "blind minds" which is an interesting concept. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) The mind is the processing center for all our senses, so a blinded mind results in a distortion of perceptions.....these perceptions can lead to wrong conclusions, but interestingly, Paul says that this can only happen to "unbelievers".
If I couple that with Jesus' words in Matthew 7:21-23, where he is judging those who claim him as their "Lord" yet despite their protests that they had done so many good things "in his name", he rejects them out of hand as those he "never knew"...."workers of lawlessness" even! "Never" means "not ever". Doesn't this suggest to you that just calling yourself a "Christian" and even being able to perform "powerful works" and having an appearance of following the Christian faith, is no proof of the validity of the "Christianity" that is practiced?
If we don't teach the truth, and live it every day, then we teach untruths....twisted half truths are often worse than lies.
Is a meeting of minds even possible? As time has gone on, Christianity has just become more divided. Robust dialogue goes on and despite good intentions, agreement has not materialized. Agreeing to disagree is the only option. But, is that what God wants?
Jesus said something interesting that gives us insight into how individuals are drawn to the real truth rather than to the counterfeit "truth" produced by God's enemy.
He said..."No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him..."(John 6:44)......and he repeats a few verses later...."This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” (John 6:65) So God is the one who draws people to his son. Those who do not receive this invitation will ever come to an accurate knowledge of the truth about Jesus and his role in God's purpose.
What does that mean for all of us?
Division is nothing new of course, even in Jesus' day, sectarianism had divided Judaism. However, rather than side with one group, Jesus condemned all of them. He called his disciples out of that corrupted rabble and, as the "Fine Shepherd", he led them to fresh pasture with a whole new understanding of how the Jewish religious system had failed them. The "lost sheep" found a new home, seen by the Orthodox Jews as apostates. How interesting that the real apostates did not recognize themselves as such?
Jesus castigated them at every opportunity. (Matthew 23) Any wonder they wanted him dead....it was their common solution to God's efforts to correct them. (Matthew 23:37-39) Don't listen to the Messenger, slander him....make him out to be a phony....turn people against him.....silence him! He told his disciples that the same would happen to them. (John 15:18-21)
Yes, I agree that many denominations are so diametrically opposed in their beliefs, that they will never reach agreement. How does God view this?
Looking back at Israel's history we see some common problems. It appears that the corruption of Judaism happened long before Jesus began his ministry. They were a "stiff-necked" people and tried God's patience many times, but he promised to produce their Messiah from that nation and true to his covenant, he fulfilled his side of the agreement. The Jews however, never did, which is why he abandoned them once his obligation was fulfilled.
The foretold corruption of Christianity began not long after the death of the apostles. Paul indicated that their presence was "acting as a restraint" for the apostasy that Jesus and his apostles had warned about. (2 Thessalonians 2:3-12) So it's no surprise that Christianity was carved up into followers of men.
The Catholic Church was the birth of Christendom. It was never "Christian" from its beginnings, but a pathetic fusion of weakened Christianity and pagan Roman sun worship. It held a tyrannical hold on people, based on fear, lies and ignorance for 1500 years.
The Reformation, whilst breaking the power of the Catholic Church, and giving people access to God's word, did not unite "Christians"....instead they followed influential men and broke Christianity up into literally thousands of bickering sects. In all that confusion, how are people to find the proverbial needle in a haystack?
Lacking confidence in one's beliefs is unnerving for those who love God and genuinely want to please him. But in my own case, being raised in the Anglican Church, I never felt that their teachings rang true. I left the church in my late teens, frustrated that no one had answers to my many questions, so I searched for God in other denominations. I didn't find him. Basically I saw that all of them held to a core of beliefs that just didn't sit well with me....and the only justification for them were ambiguous verses, often vaguely translated.
Asking for clarifications on those core beliefs.....the trinity...immortality of the soul....and hellfire, left me feeling empty. I was not convinced that any of those beliefs was taught in the Bible. On close investigation, I discovered that the Bible did not support any of them. All were borrowed from pagan religious concepts and grafted into the Catholic Church's doctrines centuries after Jesus died.
The Reformation carried those doctrines from Catholicism into Protestantism, perpetuating those lies right to the present day.
So if God's arch enemy has had the same kind of success with "Christianity" as he did with Judaism, what does that mean?
Matthew 7:13-14 indicates that "few" are on the road to life, whilst the "many" are happily 'deluded' and heading into a dead end.
Sorry for the lengthiness of this post! I don't expect you to respond to all of it, and I promise I won't interpret all that you don't respond to as a concession.
See....you don't have to apologise.....
I can talk about God and the Bible all day.I know that is a lot to process, but my studies have been based, not just on selected proof texts, but on the Bible's overall teachings and it's very important message. What we lost in the beginning, (Genesis) is restored at the end. (Revelation) Do you know what we lost? And how we get it back? (Isaiah 55:11)
All those thousands of sects in Christendom cannot all be right....but it is sobering to consider that they could all be wrong.
What are your thoughts?
Greetings!
I'm running late with the food, but here is a welcoming treat.
(Alas, we're temporarily out of haggis....so popular here.)
I'm running late with the food, but here is a welcoming treat.
(Alas, we're temporarily out of haggis....so popular here.)