Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Oh, yeah? Well, he doesn't believe in you either! Take that you heathen!
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Why Atheism is a Belief System
- Thread starter Nakosis
- Start date
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Or they could have my position of being a confused ape who can only do her best at trying to make sense of everything while riding along on a speck of iron hurtling through a vastness of space greater than we can comprehend. Truly, I'm not undecided. I'm human. I sometimes lose my glasses on my face. Figuring out the physical life we have is so hard as it is and you want to ask me creators and spirits and gods? We don't even know who built Stonehenge.
QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
Sorry, but the casualness of a belief really isn't a factor. You are proposing that we change the definition of belief systems from being those things that we DO believe in to those things that we DON'T believe in. Now we can certainly start doing so, but I'm asking why would we? What would we accomplish by it?
It would like is we decided that from now on when someone asks you to name your favorite flavor of ice cream, instead of simply stating what your favorite is, you must instead list all of the flavors that are NOT your favorite. Now we CAN start doing that, but why would we? What would it accomplish, other than forcing people to take FAR longer to answer a simple question?
I am sincerely curious -- why does it matter so much to you that atheism should be "a belief system?" Can you write me one or two sentences that say something like, "if atheism isn't a belief system, I …?
Beyond that, however, is there anybody here who thinks that you, or I, or anyone else, couldn't just get on a boat or plane and go visit Sweden? And once there, with all the signs in Swedish saying "Welcome to Sweden" (or "Välkommen till Sverige"), at least get a sense that perhaps, indeed, Sweden does exist? And having done that, what's left for "belief" to do?
On the other hand, I have yet to discover who can do the same thing with God -- you know, like "here, let me introduce you to God...pull back the curtain and … what? It always, always, without any exceptions whatever, comes down to this: you either believe in God or you don't...no further information will be provided, thank you for visiting.
Do you believe in the gods of the Olympian pantheon: Zeus and Hera, Apollo and the rest? Why or why not? And would you call your disbelief (if you have it) a "belief system?" Why? What do you have to do about not believing that Zeus is the head god? How should you govern your behaviours as a consequence of this particular lack of belief? Because that's what belief's are all about -- they inform our thoughts and behaviours.
You believe in a deity, and you believe that deity has certain requirements of you, and you feel constrained to behave I such and such a way as a consequence. But if I do not believe in that deity, and see no requirements laid upon me, then there's nothing to inform my actions. If you believed the world was flat, and that sailing to far east would lead you to drop off the edge, you'd soon feel that you had better stop sailing. If I believe no such thing, why would I bother to stop, if I still think there are interesting things to see ahead?
The "burden" referred to is supporting statements.
Ha. Ha. But, the seed will germinate. LOL.
First.The simple fact is in the statement: “I see your confusion. You think that my denial of Sweden is a belief. But it’s simply a non-belief and so I don’t need to give evidence for it.”
This is exactly like the stand of some atheists. Whether Sweden is provable or not does not enter into this argument.
Second. You tacitly agree that while existence of Sweden is objectively provable, existence of god is not. That is true. To ask for objective evidence for God’s existence is display of ignorance of what God is. God is not an external object of mind-sense.
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Ha ha. “I don’t believe God doesn’t exist” means “I believe God exists”.
That is the straightforward grammar. And a straightforward way to express agnosticism, imo, is: “I neither believe nor disbelieve the existence of God”.
...
The crux however is that no one can possess a ‘no belief.
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ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
No, it does not. It means "I don't accept the proposition 'No God exists' to be true"; it does not mean "I accept the proposition 'God exists' to be true".
Only if you don't understand:
1) That belief and disbelief are mutually exclusive; you can either believe or disbelieve, but you cannot do both or neither. If you do not believe, you disbelieve by definition.
2) That agnosticism deals with knowledge, not belief. A person who is agnostic can either believe or disbelieve, they just make no claim to knowledge.
At least, according to the traditional definitions of these terms.
True. But they can not possess a specific belief.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Except that there are many people who don't hold that position, and DO posit that God is demonstrable, or can be determined to exist through some rational means, or can even be directly detected and produces testable influences on the world.
And if it is ignorant to ask for objective evidence for something that cannot produce evidence of it's existence, surely it would also be foolish to believe in the existence of such a thing in the first place. No?
No. We cannot prove existence of the aware self/subject “I”, except through it’s interaction with objects.
When you respond to my post, ponder “Who I am that is responding?”.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
But if it interacts with objects, that's objective evidence of existence.
Well there goes the Abrahamic religions down the toilet. Your no external object of mind-sense didn't have any problems displaying his backparts and if he does that to any reputable scientific institution on the planet there should be no problem providing objective evidence for his existence. Exodus 33:23 Then I will take My hand away, and you will see My back; but My face must not be seen."
LOL If I say "I don't believe God exists and I don't believe God doesn't exist either, I'm undecided on the matter" how do you logically and rationally manage to equate "I don't believe God doesn't exists" with "I do believe God exists"? You can't...
Yes. I agree. For us, the universe is evidence of the brahman of the nature of truth-knowledge-infinity.
A wave can see only the surface of the ocean.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
So Brahman's existence is objectively provable?
Where did I say that? Brahman is not an object of mind-sense. It is the source of mind-sense.
If you knew the ‘I” as the pure subject, stripped of attributes of transient names-forms in the mistaken awareness “I am this body”, the brahman will be realised.
“Be still and know that I am god”; “That thou art”; “Allah is the seer, Allah is the knower”, all point to the same reality.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
But if Brahman isn't objectively provable, how can you claim the Universe is evidence of them?
I'm confused.
Wilful confusion cannot be removed. With good faith I will try only once more. Brahman is the subject “I” in your awareness “I am this”.
You can realise this “I” as the most intimate — more intimate than an apple on your palm. Be still and know that I am God.
Are you now confusing Brahman with God? "There is no meaningful correlation between the God of the Bible and any of the millions of Hindu gods, nor can God be identified with Brahman, the ultimate, divine essence of the universe in Hindu thought. They are not only different in name, but also in their core characteristics." Do Christians and Hindus worship the same God? | CARM.org Get a grip and at least pick one or the other.